Duncan Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 I may have brought this up before but let's say you sometimes smoke or socially drink or have a mild addiction to cucumber salad. So would you need to see the Bishop first and then he tells you to go a counsellor or ARP, but if that's the case can't you skip the Bishop and just go to ARP? what benefit would there be to see a Bishop? as I see it these things don't really affect your standing in the Church-it's not like your a raging alcoholic or into drugs or eat at Applebees for their conveniently priced lunch specials on wed.
Ahab Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 2 minutes ago, Duncan said: I may have brought this up before but let's say you sometimes smoke or socially drink or have a mild addiction to cucumber salad. So would you need to see the Bishop first and then he tells you to go a counsellor or ARP, but if that's the case can't you skip the Bishop and just go to ARP? what benefit would there be to see a Bishop? as I see it these things don't really affect your standing in the Church-it's not like your a raging alcoholic or into drugs or eat at Applebees for their conveniently priced lunch specials on wed. To just talk with him about things that concern you, whatever it is that concern you. For spiritual support. To bounce ideas off of him to see what he thinks. Not all of us have a mortal father who is a faithful member of our Lord's church. Or someone similar in our mortal family. Another good man to talk with. So a good bishop can fill that spot, in some situations, for some people. Extroverts mostly, I think. As an introvert I prefer to mull things over in my own mind while trying to be open to inspiration from God. 3
thesometimesaint Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 The Bishop isn't there to kick you out of the Church, but to help you repent(turn towards God). Because the Bishop can offer the emotional support you need to complete the ARP. 2
Ahab Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 2 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: Addiction Recovery Program. Also an association for retired people. 2
ksfisher Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Duncan said: I may have brought this up before but let's say you sometimes smoke or socially drink or have a mild addiction to cucumber salad. So would you need to see the Bishop first and then he tells you to go a counsellor or ARP, but if that's the case can't you skip the Bishop and just go to ARP? what benefit would there be to see a Bishop? as I see it these things don't really affect your standing in the Church-it's not like your a raging alcoholic or into drugs or eat at Applebees for their conveniently priced lunch specials on wed. This does affect ones worthiness to take the sacrament. In the case you've stated above the person is breaking the word of wisdom and would seem to have no intention of stopping. This fits the definition of unrepentant we should not be partaking of the sacrament if we are unrepentant. It may seem like such a small thing, but if it is a small thing why not be obedient? Bottom line, it would probably be a good idea for such a person to have a chat with their bishop. Edited March 7, 2017 by ksfisher
thesometimesaint Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 4 minutes ago, Ahab said: Also an association for retired people. Context my friend context.
Thinking Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 13 minutes ago, Ahab said: Also an association for retired people. Need an extra A. AARP
Duncan Posted March 7, 2017 Author Posted March 7, 2017 (edited) Just now, ksfisher said: This does affect ones worthiness to take the sacrament. In the case you've stated above the person is breaking the word of wisdom and would seem to have no intention of stopping. This fits the definition of unrepentant we should not be partaking of the sacrament if we are unrepentant. It may seem like such a small thing, but if it is a small thing why not be obedient? Bottom line, it would probably be a good idea for such a person to have a chat with their bishop. but if they do have intention of stopping hence the ARP visit or being self reliant and contacting a counselor, what good would a visit with a Bishop do though? if you do have a father or a friend to talk it over with isn't that just as good?, I just don't see Bishops as emotional supports hence the invention of ARP, I dunno! Edited March 7, 2017 by Duncan
Duncan Posted March 7, 2017 Author Posted March 7, 2017 Just now, bluebell said: What's ARP? we have a million architects in our stake and I always say it's the "Architect Recovery Program" they don't see the humour in it though
ksfisher Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 8 minutes ago, Duncan said: but if they do have intention of stopping hence the ARP visit or being self reliant and contacting a counselor, what good would a visit with a Bishop do though? if you do have a father or a friend to talk it over with isn't that just as good?, I just don't see Bishops as emotional supports hence the invention of ARP, I dunno! It is always a good idea to involve your priesthood leader (bishop) in issues that affect your worthiness to participate in priesthood ordinances. The bishop is a common judge in Israel. ARP is not. The bishop is there for priesthood support which none of the other people whom you've named can provide. 1
thesometimesaint Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 9 minutes ago, Duncan said: but if they do have intention of stopping hence the ARP visit or being self reliant and contacting a counselor, what good would a visit with a Bishop do though? if you do have a father or a friend to talk it over with isn't that just as good?, I just don't see Bishops as emotional supports hence the invention of ARP, I dunno! The Church is there to help.
Duncan Posted March 7, 2017 Author Posted March 7, 2017 Just now, ksfisher said: It is always a good idea to involve your priesthood leader (bishop) in issues that affect your worthiness to participate in priesthood ordinances. The bishop is a common judge in Israel. ARP is not. The bishop is there for priesthood support which none of the other people whom you've named can provide. what if one Bishop says it isn't an issue and another one say it is though, ? One Bishop could care less about things whereas another one could see an issue with it
Ahab Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 3 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: Other Bishops aren't your Bishop. Not even the men who were once his bishop who he may still refer to as bishop (so and so) even though they are no longer his acting bishop.
pogi Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 37 minutes ago, Duncan said: but if they do have intention of stopping hence the ARP visit or being self reliant and contacting a counselor, what good would a visit with a Bishop do though? if you do have a father or a friend to talk it over with isn't that just as good?, I just don't see Bishops as emotional supports hence the invention of ARP, I dunno! The bishop will refer you to ARP and ARP will refer you to your bishop. They are meant to be used in conjunction with each other. From the ARP manual: Introduction: This guide can be used by people seeking to change their lives and especially by those willing to work one-on-one with a bishop or a professional counselor. Step 3: Speak with your bishop or branch president about your addiction and your decision to follow the will of God...Then renew your commitment to accept and follow His will for your life by partaking of the sacrament if your bishop or branch president gives you permission to do so. step 5: This disclosure to proper priesthood authority was an essential part of recovery and healing. Begin to seek forgiveness; counsel with the bishop as needed; be honest with God, yourself, and others... Step 8 We learned, however, that impulsively rushing to make amends without taking time for prayer and perhaps counsel from a trusted adviser, such as a bishop or other priesthood leader, could be as detrimental as not making amends. Step 12 Magnify the Church callings you receive. If you do not have responsibilities in your ward or stake, let your bishop know that you are available to serve. https://addictionrecovery.lds.org/bc/content/arp/content/manuals/ARPGuide_English_36764.pdf 2
ksfisher Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 1 hour ago, Duncan said: what if one Bishop says it isn't an issue and another one say it is though, ? One Bishop could care less about things whereas another one could see an issue with it Would the hypothetical person in question be planning on seeing two bishops about the matter? The bishop who has stewardship is the only one who can receive inspiration and revelation for the situation in question. 1
Duncan Posted March 7, 2017 Author Posted March 7, 2017 Just now, ksfisher said: Would the hypothetical person in question be planning on seeing two bishops about the matter? The bishop who has stewardship is the only one who can receive inspiration and revelation for the situation in question. well, that's true but if let's say you had a problem with whatever and one Bishop said not to worry and then it went away or it didn't bother you and then it came back and the new Bishop said hey, you need to attend ARP or see somebody but in the meantime no sacrament or disfellowshipment or whatever, you could get conflicting advice -is it a problem or isn't it? I know Elder Samuelson of the Seventy related about how one Bishop would deny a recommend to someone only to see them at the Temple a few months later, somehow they got someone to sign it for them
ksfisher Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 (edited) 23 minutes ago, Duncan said: well, that's true but if let's say you had a problem with whatever and one Bishop said not to worry and then it went away or it didn't bother you and then it came back and the new Bishop said hey, you need to attend ARP or see somebody but in the meantime no sacrament or disfellowshipment or whatever, you could get conflicting advice -is it a problem or isn't it? I know Elder Samuelson of the Seventy related about how one Bishop would deny a recommend to someone only to see them at the Temple a few months later, somehow they got someone to sign it for them If a new bishop gives advice different than a previous bishop there is no conflict. You only have only bishop at a time. You can "what if" this thing to death. Edited March 7, 2017 by ksfisher 1
rongo Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 32 minutes ago, Duncan said: well, that's true but if let's say you had a problem with whatever and one Bishop said not to worry and then it went away or it didn't bother you and then it came back and the new Bishop said hey, you need to attend ARP or see somebody . . . ARP can be a catch-all that is indiscriminantly "prescribed," too. We had a brother who was rebaptized, and a couple of high councilors pushed hard in his disciplinary council to make him attend ARP meetings for a length of time before reconvening to consider. Thankfully, the stake presidency, overruled that. He is in his sixties, was excommunicated for adultery long ago, and has no porn addiction. They were the types who think everyone should go to ARP --- every man, woman and child. They wouldn't drop their line of questioning ("the incident didn't come out of nowhere --- some porn addiction must have been at the root of what happened --- we all have these lurking in us . . ."), and I said that a porn problem had nothing to do with his case, and that I advised against making it a requirement for him. 1
Kenngo1969 Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 (edited) There have been a lot of good contributions to this thread (particularly Pogi's: there can't very well be much debate over certain aspects of a matter when the authoritative word comes "from the horse's mouth," so to speak). While I do agree with Rongo that the "A" in "ARP" stands for Addiction, that not everyone who sins (even if the sin is serious) is an A-ddict, and that "prescribing" ARP for sins which do not necessarily involve A-ddiction might be like trying to hammer a nail into the wall with a tape measure, I did hear a participant in the program once describe it as being a course in how to repent. I think, from that standpoint, that, while, if I were a Bishop, I might not require people who are not A-didicted to anything to attend the ARP group, they still might find ARP useful in gauging where they are in the repentance process and what they might, under the direction of the Holy Spirit, still find it useful to do to make that process most effectual in their lives. My $0.02. Your mileage likely varies. P.S.: And our vehement, heated disagreement ( ) probably does a lot to explain why Rongo is on his second go-round as a bishop while I, by contrast, will never be one. P.P.S.: I remember vividly my final meeting with the outgoing bishop when I was the ward's executive secretary (I say "ward's" because I wasn't among those being released, although I was released a few months later). I asked him what he wanted to do about such-and-such, and he pointedly told me that, as of about 1:20 that afternoon, it no longer was his call. P.P.P.S.: And the word is "indiscriminately." (Now, you have even more reason to be vehemently upset with me.) Edited March 7, 2017 by Kenngo1969 2
Duncan Posted March 7, 2017 Author Posted March 7, 2017 Just now, Kenngo1969 said: There have been a lot of good contributions to this thread. While I do agree with Rongo that the "A" in "ARP" stands for Addiction, that not everyone who sins (even if the sin is serious) is an A-ddict, and that "prescribing" ARP for sins which do not necessarily involve addiction might be like trying to hammer a nail into the wall with a tape measure, I did hear a participant in the program once describe it as being a course in how to repent. I think, from that standpoint, that, while, if I were a Bishop, I might not require people who are not A-didicted to anything to attend the ARP group, they still might find ARP useful in gauging where they are in the repentance process and what they might, under the direction of the Holy Spirit, still find it useful to do to make that process most effectual in their lives. My $0.02. Your mileage likely varies. P.S.: And our vehement, heated disagreement ( ) probably does a lot to explain why Rongo is on his second go-round as a bishop while I, by contrast, will never be one. why can't you be a Bishop? Our Stake President told us something about things that could disqualify you to be recommended as a Bishop and we asked him for that list, for me I'll get the disease I don't care
Ahab Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 2 minutes ago, Duncan said: why can't you be a Bishop? Our Stake President told us something about things that could disqualify you to be recommended as a Bishop and we asked him for that list, for me I'll get the disease I don't care Kenngo was just being humble, Duncan. AND was also trying to be funny.
Duncan Posted March 7, 2017 Author Posted March 7, 2017 Just now, Ahab said: Kenngo was just being humble, Duncan. AND was also trying to be funny.
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