JulieM Posted February 28, 2017 Author Posted February 28, 2017 1 hour ago, RevTestament said: Not really at all - especially given that these stories were not written until years later during a time when BY was promoting polygamy as essentially necessary - easy to get the story a little embellished in that atmosphere. I think since there were many giving similar statements, it's pretty accurate and reliable. Zina seemed to be very precise and honest and so did Eliza R. Snow.
Thinking Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 7 hours ago, Glenn101 said: It is apparent from the remembrances of several of the women that Joseph said that he was commanded to take several specific women as plural wives. Emily Dow Partridge noted how reluctant or at least hesitant Joseph was to actually broach the subject to her. The stories the ladies tell do not paint the portrait of a man driven by his libido. I think that a man in the early 19th century would be hesitant to ask women to become his plural wives no matter his motivations. 2
JLHPROF Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 10 minutes ago, Thinking said: I think that a man in the early 19th century would be hesitant to ask women to become his plural wives no matter his motivations. Very true. The stories of Brigham and Heber coming to terms with this are well known. Why would Joseph be any different? We know how devoted he was to Emma during the pre-polygamy time period. That wouldn't have been an easy change.
Calm Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 18 minutes ago, Thinking said: I think that a man in the early 19th century would be hesitant to ask women to become his plural wives no matter his motivations. John Bennett and a few others do not appear to have been so reluctant.
Glenn101 Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 9 hours ago, JulieM said: So the angel named specific women? Do you have a source for this? Thanks! One such source is Emily Dow Partridge reported that Joseph told her she had been given to him by the Lord in an affidavit to President Joseph F. Smith in 1892. I realize there are a lot of years between the doing and telling. I believe that was also the case with Mary Elizabeth Rollins Lightener and Zina Diantha Huntington. I would have to go back and check up on all of those stories again. Brian Hales has a lot of this information on his JosephSmithsPolygamy web site. It takes a lot of digging. Glenn
Black Moclips Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 16 hours ago, JLHPROF said: Nope. Obedience to law with clearly stated consequences sounds like God's plan. Joseph had the right to exercise his agency. He would just have to accept the consequences. How about we rearrange your sentence to say "Obedience to clearly stated law with consequences sounds like God's plan". This is what is fishy to many. What is the law we are talking about? Is commandment 11 on Moses' tablet - "Practice Polygamy when commanded or Die"? This whole excuse just sounds too convenient - "I really didn't want to but I had to or God would kill me." Sure doesn't sound like the Jesus I've read about. And honestly, "obey me or die" really isn't a choice at all. 3
ERayR Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 26 minutes ago, Black Moclips said: And honestly, "obey me or die" really isn't a choice at all. Yes it is. If you does not obey him you are cut off and die spiritually, which is much worse than dying physically. 1
JulieM Posted February 28, 2017 Author Posted February 28, 2017 (edited) 6 hours ago, ERayR said: Yes it is. If you does not obey him you are cut off and die spiritually, which is much worse than dying physically. Did Joseoh ever state "die spiritually"? I think the women he told this to, most likely thought he was being threatened with physical destruction. But I'd need to read their actual statements again. The use of a sword is pretty threatening for a physical death, IMO. Edited February 28, 2017 by JulieM 2
Benjamin Seeker Posted March 1, 2017 Posted March 1, 2017 On 2/27/2017 at 2:36 PM, JulieM said: I was going to ask this on another thread, but didn't want to sidetrack the discussion. Here is what is written on Fair about the angel with the drawn/flaming sword: Question: Did Joseph claim that an angel threatened him with a "drawn sword" or "flaming sword" if a woman refused to marry him? The references to the "angel with a sword" refer to Joseph's postponement of the initiation of polygamy Zina Diantha Huntington Jacobs said that Joseph mentioned an angel with a drawn sword. The account of a "flaming" sword came from Eliza Snow and Orson F. Whitney. The "angel with a sword" reference refers to Joseph's postponement of the practice of polygamy. Brian Hales notes that, "Twenty-one accounts by nine polygamy insiders left recollections that the Prophet told of one specific reason: an angel with a sword who threatened him if he did not proceed. All nine witnesses could have heard the statement from the Prophet himself; however, the narratives themselves suggest that Benjamin F. Johnson and Eliza R. Snow may have been repeating information gathered from other people. Joseph Lee Robinson's narrative is difficult to date and his actual source is not clear. Lorenzo Snow, Erastus Snow, and Mary Elizabeth Rollins Lightner quote the Prophet directly and Mary Elizabeth provides details not available elsewhere. Unfortunately, with the possible exception of the Robinson account, all of the reminiscences date to at least twenty to thirty years after the event." Here are the quotes attributed to Zina on the matter: 1881: Zina Huntington—Zina D. Young told of Bro. Joseph's remark in relation to the revelation on celestial marriage. How an angel came to him with a drawn sword, and said if he did not obey this law he would lost his priesthood; and in the keeping of it he, Joseph, did not know but it would cost him his life. 1894: Zina Huntington—[Joseph] sent word to me by my brother, saying, 'Tell Zina I put it off and put it off till an angel with a drawn sword stood by me and told me if I did not establish that principle upon the earth, I would lost my position and my life.'" http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Polygamy/Did_Joseph_Smith_coerce_women_to_marry_him So, my question is if we have any type of timeline or reference for when the angel appeared to Joseph? I found a detailed article by Brian Hales and Don Bradley on the angel and drawn sword. It will definitely give you more information to work with. http://mormonpolygamydocuments.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/JS0768.doc
Gray Posted March 1, 2017 Posted March 1, 2017 On 2/28/2017 at 10:16 AM, Black Moclips said: How about we rearrange your sentence to say "Obedience to clearly stated law with consequences sounds like God's plan". This is what is fishy to many. What is the law we are talking about? Is commandment 11 on Moses' tablet - "Practice Polygamy when commanded or Die"? This whole excuse just sounds too convenient - "I really didn't want to but I had to or God would kill me." Sure doesn't sound like the Jesus I've read about. And honestly, "obey me or die" really isn't a choice at all. Yes, that's clearly an abuse. Reminds me of what Oral Roberts did in the 80s: http://content.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1677098,00.html 1
birdgirl Posted March 1, 2017 Posted March 1, 2017 On 2/27/2017 at 4:37 PM, JLHPROF said: Mary Lightner said it was 1842, but Zina said it was BEFORE they were married which was in Aug 1841. I think Mary was probably just off by a year. Or they both were right about what year he told them because .... nuance?
Alan Posted March 1, 2017 Posted March 1, 2017 When did the sword brandishing angel appear to Joseph? It never happened.
strappinglad Posted March 1, 2017 Posted March 1, 2017 I would lost my position and my life.'" Just being curious, and fussy, there are a couple of the original quotes that use this phrasing with what would now be considered bad grammar. Would this be a common use at the time , or a flag as to what was actually said?
clarkgoble Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 On 2/28/2017 at 9:16 AM, Black Moclips said: How about we rearrange your sentence to say "Obedience to clearly stated law with consequences sounds like God's plan". This is what is fishy to many. What is the law we are talking about? Is commandment 11 on Moses' tablet - "Practice Polygamy when commanded or Die"? This whole excuse just sounds too convenient - "I really didn't want to but I had to or God would kill me." Sure doesn't sound like the Jesus I've read about. And honestly, "obey me or die" really isn't a choice at all. I think the point is that Joseph, as prophet, was commanded by God to reveal something and refused. God through an angel says if you won't that you'll be removed as prophet in a way that there won't be any question about. I'm not sure that's that unusual especially in terms of the Old Testament. Now for the women I think it's a different matter. Even if this happened to Joseph I think it inappropriate to bring it up to guilt trip women. That is Joseph might have been commanded to live the principle but how he approached people appears to have been up to him. And there I think it clear that he didn't do a terribly good job for a slew of reasons. 1
JLHPROF Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 5 minutes ago, bluebell said: When did JS finally tell Emma about his polygamy? I don't think anyone knows when he told her about his polygamy or about the revelation or doctrine. It could serve to answer several questions. 2
bcuzbcuz Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 (edited) 13 hours ago, bluebell said: When did JS finally tell Emma about his polygamy? When did JS finally tell Emma about his polygamy? Too long after the actual fact to arouse any sympathy in her, obviously. The appropriate time was to tell her before any of it happened. Your use of the word "finally" speaks volumes. Of course, it is conceivable that most men who engage in extra-marital affairs only tell their wives "finally", either long after the fact or when caught in the act, whichever comes first. Edited March 2, 2017 by bcuzbcuz 1
Black Moclips Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 15 hours ago, clarkgoble said: I think the point is that Joseph, as prophet, was commanded by God to reveal something and refused. God through an angel says if you won't that you'll be removed as prophet in a way that there won't be any question about. I'm not sure that's that unusual especially in terms of the Old Testament. Now for the women I think it's a different matter. Even if this happened to Joseph I think it inappropriate to bring it up to guilt trip women. That is Joseph might have been commanded to live the principle but how he approached people appears to have been up to him. And there I think it clear that he didn't do a terribly good job for a slew of reasons. I just question the fact that polygamy is a "doctrine" that needed to be restored. Just because some ancient patriarchs practiced this, doesn't mean its a spiritual doctrine needing to be restored. All we have is Joseph's say so, and convenient revelations received by himself backing up his actions. The Book of Mormon itself is clearly against polygamy, yet for someone unknown reason, God changes course and commands the opposite? As David Whitmer says in his Address to All Believers in Christ "When a man enquires of the Lord concerning a matter, if he is deceived by his own carnal desires, and is in error, he will receive an answer according to his erring heart, but it will not be a revelation from the Lord." He is speaking in the context of the "revelation" telling them to go sell the Book of Mormon copyright in Canada that failed. Upon inquiring of the Lord why the mission failed, the response back was "Some revelations are of God: some revelations are of men: and some revelations are of the devil." Whitmer further states, "Remember this matter brethren; it is very important. Farther on I will give you references of scripture on this point, showing that this is God's way of dealing with His people. Now is it wisdom to put your trust in Joseph Smith, and believe all his revelations in the Doctrine and Covenants to be of God? Every one who does not desire to be of Paul, or of Apollos, or of Joseph, but desires to be of Christ will say that it is not wisdom to put our trust in him and believe his revelations as if from God's own mouth! I will say here, that I could tell you other false revelations that came through Brother Joseph as mouthpiece, (not through the stone) but this will suffice." I think polygamy sits very wrong with a lot of people for a very good reason. The spirit is telling them its wrong, and that Joseph was wrong. But the official church can't handle that kind of proposition. Prophets cannot be wrong, just misunderstood or ahead of their time, or a mystery we weren't meant to understand. 2
Popular Post stemelbow Posted March 2, 2017 Popular Post Posted March 2, 2017 If God has had a method wherein he sends an angel with a sword to threaten some person to do something that actually hurts other people, then my whole concept of God is turned upside down. Luckily I can surmise the story about an angel with a sword is made up by someone. I could research and determine if that concept was out there somewhere and then picked up and placed into Joseph's story somehow, but I don't care enough at this point. If it did happen I'd have much more respect for Joseph if he continued to tell the angel to take him out then, and not cower to the empty threat. Conveniently Joseph never tells the story but the story is placed in Joseph's mouth years after he was dead--that's convenient for my take that it never happened. 5
bluebell Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 1 hour ago, bcuzbcuz said: When did JS finally tell Emma about his polygamy? Too long after the actual fact to arouse any sympathy in her, obviously. The appropriate time was to tell her before any of it happened. Your use of the word "finally" speaks volumes. Of course, it is conceivable that most men who engage in extra-marital affairs only tell their wives "finally", either long after the fact or when caught in the act, whichever comes first. I asked because i wondered if telling Emma might have been one of the reasons the Angel came with the sword (because JS was not practicing polygamy 'correctly').
Jeanne Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 15 hours ago, bluebell said: When did JS finally tell Emma about his polygamy? I am wondering..how could she not know? Bless her heart. These women are all around her and I often wonder if she had an inkling of what was going on even before Joseph brought it up. But she was supposed to know way before he began..it is mentioned in the D and C...no matter how I look at it, she was made a fool of.
bluebell Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 3 minutes ago, Jeanne said: I am wondering..how could she not know? Bless her heart. These women are all around her and I often wonder if she had an inkling of what was going on even before Joseph brought it up. But she was supposed to know way before he began..it is mentioned in the D and C...no matter how I look at it, she was made a fool of. Maybe Emma was stupid.
Jeanne Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 1 minute ago, bluebell said: Maybe Emma was stupid. Not even...she is only guilty of one thing. Loving Joseph.
bluebell Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 5 minutes ago, Jeanne said: Not even...she is only guilty of one thing. Loving Joseph. I don't think she was stupid either, but so many who claim to respect and want to speak up for Emma imply all sorts of negative things about her. They imply she was dumb, she was blind, she was weak willed for letting Joseph control her, she had no idea what was going on around her, she was easily deceived, etc., ignoring her own words, beliefs, and convictions. With friends like that, who needs enemies? 2
Tacenda Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 32 minutes ago, bluebell said: I asked because i wondered if telling Emma might have been one of the reasons the Angel came with the sword (because JS was not practicing polygamy 'correctly'). Is that the kind of God that you could relate very well with? Seeing how we were taught of Satan's plan and not having choices.
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