Jeanne Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 7 minutes ago, bluebell said: I don't think she was stupid either, but so many who claim to respect and want to speak up for Emma imply all sorts of negative things about her. They imply she was dumb, she was blind, she was weak willed for letting Joseph control her, she had no idea what was going on around her, she was easily deceived, etc., ignoring her own words, beliefs, and convictions. With friends like that, who needs enemies? I have always been the one to stick up for her...in whatever tantrums she may have thrown or the whole idea of her trying to poison Joseph. She was not dumb..she was trusting, loving and perhaps like a lot of us are..naive when it comes to loving someone. But no shame to her...I believe she did the right thing by not going with Saints. But that is another story. She worked hard and saved a lot of children in need and lost so much in losing her own children.
bluebell Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 3 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Is that the kind of God that you could relate very well with? Seeing how we were taught of Satan's plan and not having choices. I'm not sure what you mean? The kind of God that gives us commandments and then lets us know what the consequences of disobeying them are? I had to teach a lesson on agency to the 14 and 15 year old girls a couple weeks ago in church. One of them said something very profound that many of us adults still seem to struggle to understand. "Agency isn't being able to do whatever we want without consequences, and just because there are consequences that you don't like doesn't mean you don't have agency." 1
Tacenda Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 4 minutes ago, bluebell said: I'm not sure what you mean? The kind of God that gives us commandments and then lets us know what the consequences of disobeying them are? I had to teach a lesson on agency to the 14 and 15 year old girls a couple weeks ago in church. One of them said something very profound that many of us adults still seem to struggle to understand. "Agency isn't being able to do whatever we want without consequences, and just because there are consequences that you don't like doesn't mean you don't have agency." Wow, she is a very mature young lady. I get where you're coming from though. I guess it never will sit well with me. Not the kind of Jesus/God I would like to be around. Especially after researching polygamy in the 21st century and seeing the abuses that stems from that commandment. 1
provoman Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 On 2/27/2017 at 1:41 PM, Glenn101 said: It is apparent from the remembrances of several of the women that Joseph said that he was commanded to take several specific women as plural wives. Emily Dow Partridge noted how reluctant or at least hesitant Joseph was to actually broach the subject to her. The stories the ladies tell do not paint the portrait of a man driven by his libido. Glenn I tend to agree. In Brian Hales book "The Accounts of the Angel with a Drawn Sword", appendix, pages 69 & 70, Mary Lightner is quoted: “In 1834 he was commanded to take me for a wife. I was a thousand miles from him. He got afraid. The angel came to him [Joseph Smith] three times, the last time with a drawn sword and threatened his life.” and " “God Commanded him to take as a plural wife, \in 1834/ he was very much frightened about [it] until the Angel appeared to him three times. It was in the early part of Feb, 1842 before \that/ he was compelled to reveal it to me personally, by the Angel threatening him.”"
bcuzbcuz Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 54 minutes ago, bluebell said: I asked because i wondered if telling Emma might have been one of the reasons the Angel came with the sword (because JS was not practicing polygamy 'correctly'). Maybe he wasn't practicing polygamy right but he sure as heck wasn't practicing monogamy right. It doesn't matter what spin is put on it, and I do think it is both people and church putting a spin on it, Joseph was getting some part of his relationship with Emma wrong. She was a devoted wife, he was less than a devoted husband. Current church teaching requires, no, demands, that husband and wife have no eyes, nor interactions, with any one, other than each other. Faithfulness is not a principle on roller skates than can be conviently pushed aside whenever the situation warrants. No current church leaders enagage in polygamy (and please don't anyone march out the tired blah-hah-hah about them marrying a second wife upon the death of the first, that isn't practicing polygamy). Church leaders decry polygamy and excommunicate those who practice it. The angel may have been telling Joseph to get polygamy right, but he would at the same time be telling him to get monogamy wrong. Emma loses either way. 1
stemelbow Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 31 minutes ago, Jeanne said: I have always been the one to stick up for her...in whatever tantrums she may have thrown or the whole idea of her trying to poison Joseph. She was not dumb..she was trusting, loving and perhaps like a lot of us are..naive when it comes to loving someone. But no shame to her...I believe she did the right thing by not going with Saints. But that is another story. She worked hard and saved a lot of children in need and lost so much in losing her own children. Mromon Enigma is worth reading if anyone here hasn't already. 1
bluebell Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 23 minutes ago, Jeanne said: I have always been the one to stick up for her...in whatever tantrums she may have thrown or the whole idea of her trying to poison Joseph. She was not dumb..she was trusting, loving and perhaps like a lot of us are..naive when it comes to loving someone. But no shame to her...I believe she did the right thing by not going with Saints. But that is another story. She worked hard and saved a lot of children in need and lost so much in losing her own children. Stick up for her, but stating repeatedly that she had no idea what she was talking about when she spoke about JS and her beliefs, that her husband was evil, and that you know better than her about what was really going on. If i did that to you, would you feel that i was 'sticking up for you'? I agree, she was an absolutely amazing woman, but given how she felt about JS, i don't think it's possible for any of us to speak ill of him, even on her behalf, and think she would appreciate it. 1
stemelbow Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 45 minutes ago, bluebell said: I don't think she was stupid either, but so many who claim to respect and want to speak up for Emma imply all sorts of negative things about her. They imply she was dumb, she was blind, she was weak willed for letting Joseph control her, she had no idea what was going on around her, she was easily deceived, etc., ignoring her own words, beliefs, and convictions. With friends like that, who needs enemies? She definitely seemed to the opposite of nearly all the negative things you mention. Her biggest critic was Brigham and his criticisms were she was too smart and too strong willed it seems to me.
stemelbow Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 Just now, bluebell said: Stick up for her, but stating repeatedly that she had no idea what she was talking about when she spoke about JS and her beliefs, that her husband was evil, and that you know better than her about what was really going on. If i did that to you, would you feel that i was 'sticking up for you'? I agree, she was an absolutely amazing woman, but given how she felt about JS, i don't think it's possible for any of us to speak ill of him, even on her behalf, and think she would appreciate it. I don't think Jeanne was doing any of that.
bluebell Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 21 minutes ago, bcuzbcuz said: Maybe he wasn't practicing polygamy right but he sure as heck wasn't practicing monogamy right. It doesn't matter what spin is put on it, and I do think it is both people and church putting a spin on it, Joseph was getting some part of his relationship with Emma wrong. She was a devoted wife, he was less than a devoted husband. Current church teaching requires, no, demands, that husband and wife have no eyes, nor interactions, with any one, other than each other. Faithfulness is not a principle on roller skates than can be conviently pushed aside whenever the situation warrants. No current church leaders enagage in polygamy (and please don't anyone march out the tired blah-hah-hah about them marrying a second wife upon the death of the first, that isn't practicing polygamy). Church leaders decry polygamy and excommunicate those who practice it. The angel may have been telling Joseph to get polygamy right, but he would at the same time be telling him to get monogamy wrong. Emma loses either way. There is no way to practice polygamy and monogamy at the same time so that seems like an irrelevant argument.
bluebell Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 1 minute ago, stemelbow said: She definitely seemed to the opposite of nearly all the negative things you mention. Her biggest critic was Brigham and his criticisms were she was too smart and too strong willed it seems to me. I agree, which is why it's so weird to hear so many of her fans imply those kinds of things about her.
stemelbow Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 5 minutes ago, bluebell said: There is no way to practice polygamy and monogamy at the same time so that seems like an irrelevant argument. well except there is this from Joseph: "What a thing it is for a man to be accused of adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one." So to him it might have been possible.
stemelbow Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 6 minutes ago, bluebell said: I agree, which is why it's so weird to hear so many of her fans imply those kinds of things about her. But who? I don't know that I've seen it.
bluebell Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 1 minute ago, stemelbow said: I don't think Jeanne was doing any of that. Jeanne has said many times that JS was an immoral man and that Emma was deceived by him both as a husband and as a prophet. I consider Jeanne a friend and like her immensely. And i know how she reacts when someone tries to tell her that she has no idea what she's talking about when she declares her beliefs about mormonism and that she's deceived and they know better than she does (it's how all of us react to such things). She appreciates people who let her speak for herself and don't try to spin her words to fit their belief system. She does not appreciate people who try to use her experiences to support a belief system she does not agree with. I'm sure Emma feels the same way. 1
bluebell Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 3 minutes ago, stemelbow said: well except there is this from Joseph: "What a thing it is for a man to be accused of adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one." So to him it might have been possible. I don't think it was right for JS to lie (at least not to emma) but I'm not going to argue about his motives. Either way, JS didn't believe that he was guilty of adultery even if he was a polygamist. Can you give me a reference for this quote? I've found one that is similar but it doesn't say 'when i can only find one.' I'm wondering if you are trying to remember the quote from memory or if i just haven't found the right one yet. 1
Jeanne Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 12 minutes ago, bluebell said: Stick up for her, but stating repeatedly that she had no idea what she was talking about when she spoke about JS and her beliefs, that her husband was evil, and that you know better than her about what was really going on. If i did that to you, would you feel that i was 'sticking up for you'? I agree, she was an absolutely amazing woman, but given how she felt about JS, i don't think it's possible for any of us to speak ill of him, even on her behalf, and think she would appreciate it. Gees..sorry..the fact that she was president of the RS and all those women around her puts secrecy to its very best level. Her husband wasn't evil..but he did not live up to his own scripture. I don't know anything compared to you...you are the authority here. I am out. Out of this conversation. 1
Tacenda Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 3 minutes ago, stemelbow said: well except there is this from Joseph: "What a thing it is for a man to be accused of adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one." So to him it might have been possible. That was pretty sneaky, since he knew the law of the land was that it was only possible to have one legal wife. While at the same time believing that legality was wrong and living polygamy was God's law. 1
stemelbow Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 9 minutes ago, bluebell said: Jeanne has said many times that JS was an immoral man and that Emma was deceived by him both as a husband and as a prophet. I'm not sure what she has said to you. But saying "JS was an immoral man and that Emma was deceived by him both as a husband and as a prophet" does not equate to "stating repeatedly that she (Emma) had no idea what she was talking about when she spoke about JS and her beliefs, and that her husband was evil, and that you know better than her about what was really going on". There are in my mind two very different claims. We all realize, I think, by now that JS did lie to her about polygamy and she did believe him (thus she was deceived by him). Additionally one of the great virtues of her life is she stuck to her guns after his death in opposing polygamy, which may clearly say something about her views of his prophecy regarding polygamy. 9 minutes ago, bluebell said: I consider Jeanne a friend and like her immensely. And i know how she reacts when someone tries to tell her that she has no idea what she's talking about when she declares her beliefs about mormonism and that she's deceived and they know better than she does (it's how all of us react to such things). She appreciates people who let her speak for herself and don't try to spin her words to fit their belief system. She does not appreciate people who try to use her experiences to support a belief system she does not agree with. I'm sure Emma feels the same way. 1
bluebell Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 2 minutes ago, Jeanne said: Gees..sorry..the fact that she was president of the RS and all those women around her puts secrecy to its very best level. Her husband wasn't evil..but he did not live up to his own scripture. I don't know anything compared to you...you are the authority here. I am out. Out of this conversation. I haven't considered this discussion as having anything to do with who knows more or who has authority (we are each an authority on our own thoughts and beliefs). I disagree with your treatment of Emma and think it sometimes comes across as more patronizing than protective. Please don't take our disagreement on the topic personally. 1
stemelbow Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 9 minutes ago, bluebell said: I don't think it was right for JS to lie (at least not to emma) but I'm not going to argue about his motives. Either way, JS didn't believe that he was guilty of adultery even if he was a polygamist. Can you give me a reference for this quote? I've found one that is similar but it doesn't say 'when i can only find one.' I'm wondering if you are trying to remember the quote from memory or if i just haven't found the right one yet. History of the Church Vol. 6, p. 408-412 Here's the best link I can find to the copy of the HIstory of the Church I wasn't trying to argue anything about Joseph lying. Indeed I said the opposite. Perhaps he felt justified in thinking he was both living monogamy and polygamy.
Tacenda Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 28 minutes ago, stemelbow said: Mromon Enigma is worth reading if anyone here hasn't already. I remember early in my faith transition, going into the Deseret Book Store and asking for the book "In Sacred Loneliness" By Todd Compton, that I had seen on the internet. The saleswoman directed me to "Mormon Enigma" because Todd's book was no longer available. Now I've noticed Mormon Enigma is no longer available, hmm.
bluebell Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 4 minutes ago, stemelbow said: History of the Church Vol. 6, p. 408-412 Here's the best link I can find to the copy of the HIstory of the Church I wasn't trying to argue anything about Joseph lying. Indeed I said the opposite. Perhaps he felt justified in thinking he was both living monogamy and polygamy. Thank you. From everything i've read (which isn't very much at all), JS was trying to prove that he was not legally guilty of adultery, and that it was the 'adultery and fornication' accusations that he was addressing and not polygamy.
stemelbow Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 7 minutes ago, bluebell said: I haven't considered this discussion as having anything to do with who knows more or who has authority (we are each an authority on our own thoughts and beliefs). I disagree with your treatment of Emma and think it sometimes comes across as more patronizing than protective. Please don't take our disagreement on the topic personally. From what I have seen it appears to me you were unfair to her in your criticisms and whenever that happens the person whose position is being criticized often feels personally attacked. For instance, can you point to any place where Jeanne said anything like "she had no idea what she was talking about when she spoke about JS and her beliefs, that her husband was evil, and that you know better than her about what was really going on." Because your claim is that she had repeatedly said this. Just now she just clarified "Her husband wasn't evil" but again you said she's claimed he was repeatedly. In all honesty I wouldn't blame her for feeling attacked. 1
stemelbow Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 4 minutes ago, Tacenda said: I remember early in my faith transition, going into the Deseret Book Store and asking for the book "In Sacred Loneliness" By Todd Compton, that I had seen on the internet. The saleswoman directed me to "Mormon Enigma" because Todd's book was no longer available. Now I've noticed Mormon Enigma is no longer available, hmm. Don't fret, Tacenda. Who goes to book stores anymore? Get a copy from Amazon or another online source. it may end up putting Deseret book out of business at some point, but that'd be their fault.
Tacenda Posted March 2, 2017 Posted March 2, 2017 (edited) 1 minute ago, stemelbow said: Don't fret, Tacenda. Who goes to book stores anymore? Get a copy from Amazon or another online source. it may end up putting Deseret book out of business at some point, but that'd be their fault. Just didn't like that both books were available at one time, but no longer. Edited March 2, 2017 by Tacenda 1
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