More Background on the Y's Decission to let the ROTC leave

[Jane_Doe]

7 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

But coffee is both good and normal

Now that's a different statement then what you were making before.  You're welcome to believe that as you wish, and I won't debate it with you. 

7 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

 Do you have any idea how crazy you are coming off as?

You're talking to a person who believes a virgin had a baby, a baby that was the divine Son of God, that He grew up, died, and rose from the dead-- all for my benefit.  If you're looking from an atheist standpoint, coffee is far from the "craziest" of my beliefs.  

[Storm Rider]

1 hour ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Drinking coffee...is NORMAL.  In fact I'm drinking it at this very moment. It's what Americans and pretty much the rest of the world drink as their preferred beverage and their most popular caffeinated beverage...the only difference between the rest of the world and Mormon's is the temperature of their preferred caffeinated beverage.  I find it ironic that this ROTC commander could have drank gallon's of cold caffeinated beverages on campus without an issue...but because he's NORMAL and is HONEST and disclosed that he will continue to drink hot caffeine in the form of coffee at home...BYU had a problem... it's just stupid micro management...this entire matter just seem like a silly matter which ended up costing BYU

Johnnie, I hate to break it to you, but drinking coffee is not "NORMAL" in the world. A lot of people just don't touch the stuff, but do enjoy tea.  I suspect you know that because you are not stupid or ignorant.  

It is strange that the reason a person does not drink coffee is only a problem if it is for religious reasons.  For everyone else that just does not drink coffee for their own reasons it is acceptable, but you bring up religion and BOOM, we are not gonna have that hanging over the head of humanity.

Yeah, I find a lot of stupidity in the world to be silly.  I find it silly that it only became a problem now; not two years ago or five years ago or ten years ago, but now.

On the other hand, I don't see a problem having an office at UVU rather than at BYU.  If the US Armed Forces are not interested in recruiting students at BYU, go for it.  Do whatever suits the military best.  

Stupidity appears to have become the new normal.  I find people who spout tolerance for everyone except those who think differently and act differently than the spouters to be a sign of the stupidity/silliness of today's society.   Hey, ROTC, don't let that door hit your backside on the way out.  

[Johnnie Cake]

9 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

Johnnie, I hate to break it to you, but drinking coffee is not "NORMAL" in the world. A lot of people just don't touch the stuff, but do enjoy tea.  I suspect you know that because you are not stupid or ignorant.  

It is strange that the reason a person does not drink coffee is only a problem if it is for religious reasons.  For everyone else that just does not drink coffee for their own reasons it is acceptable, but you bring up religion and BOOM, we are not gonna have that hanging over the head of humanity.

Yeah, I find a lot of stupidity in the world to be silly.  I find it silly that it only became a problem now; not two years ago or five years ago or ten years ago, but now.

On the other hand, I don't see a problem having an office at UVU rather than at BYU.  If the US Armed Forces are not interested in recruiting students at BYU, go for it.  Do whatever suits the military best.  

Stupidity appears to have become the new normal.  I find people who spout tolerance for everyone except those who think differently and act differently than the spouters to be a sign of the stupidity/silliness of today's society.   Hey, ROTC, don't let that door hit your backside on the way out.  

As I stated earlier...I completely respect those who choose to abstain from consuming coffee over religious reason's or any other reason as in they just don't like it...that's all fine...just don't point your finger my way and tell me that there is something inherently evil about drinking coffee and those who chose to do so are sinning...which is what jane_doe was doing by putting coffee drinking in the same category as committing adultery

 

Edited February 24, 2017 by Johnnie Cake

[clarkgoble]

1 hour ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Drinking coffee...is NORMAL.  In fact I'm drinking it at this very moment. It's what Americans and pretty much the rest of the world drink as their preferred beverage and their most popular caffeinated beverage...the only difference between the rest of the world and Mormon's is the temperature of their preferred caffeinated beverage.  I find it ironic that this ROTC commander could have drank gallon's of cold caffeinated beverages on campus without an issue...but because he's NORMAL and is HONEST and disclosed that he will continue to drink hot caffeine in the form of coffee at home...BYU had a problem... it's just stupid micro management...this entire matter just seem like a silly matter which ended up costing BYU

I agree. There's nothing inherently wrong with drinking coffee even from a formal Mormon perspective. (Although unsurprisingly in folk traditions arbitrary norms and ethics get conflated) It's probably healthier, all things considered, than the diet Coke I regularly drink. (Although am trying to stop - haven't had one in some time) But that's ultimately not the point. What we call the Word of Wisdom is only loosely connected to D&C 89. (For instance opioids aren't mentioned there at all) We are asked to follow it though even if parts of it are likely arbitrary. (Following D&C 89 on its own is probably wise mind you - especially the parts about increasing the use of vegetables) Just because something is arbitrary doesn't mean much. Most symbolism is ultimately arbitrary.

Now I do disagree with some policies at BYU. I think it silly that caffeinated drinks aren't on campus for instance. I think it's perfectly fine if non-member workers drink alcohol or coffee. They've not made the covenants we have so I just don't think those rules apply. However I can also appreciate the view that regardless of arbitrariness we've established the convention where not having those is the norm. Wanting that norm - in effect having campus as a "safe place" - is something they want. Given that I don't think it particularly onerous to ask workers to follow those norms.

The ROTC is interesting since as I understand it most have been members. (As an aside I nearly went ROTC in college, but in hindsight I'm glad I decided not to) You'd think DoD would continue that. But then having ROTC members take the short drive/bike to UVU isn't exactly onerous either. 

Edited February 24, 2017 by clarkgoble

[Bernard Gui]

Drinking coffee is good. In what sense of the word?

Coffee breath is not good.

The issue is not the coffee.

[Bernard Gui]

As many or more people worldwide drink alcohol in some form. 

It's normal and good, apparently.

What if the issue were a martini before dinner at home?

[provoman]

 

From the article,

"BYU will waive Honor Code requirements for one year for visiting professors, but Hogan's assignment from the Air Force is for three years."

[Bernard Gui]

So when I taught at Brisbane State High School, my mates on the faculty met frequently at a nearby pub after school and sometimes even during lunch to share a Fosters or two. It was an expected and honored act of solidarity and friendship, and since I didn't drink, I was perceived as being puritan and judgmental and certainly a tall poppy. None of the blokes had associated with a Mormon before, so not participating at the pub had real consequences for me as a staff member. I didn't want to compromise my standards, but I eventually determined that going to the pub and having a lemon/lime or a Bundaberg ginger beer with my mates was a more than acceptable alternative. They were quite pleased and it was no longer an issue.

Seems like forgoing your nightly Frappuccino would not be too great a compromise if the future of your job and the BYU ROTC program were at stake. 

 

 

 

[Ouagadougou]

On 23.02.2017 at 9:50 AM, Johnnie Cake said:

BYU's President went eye to eye with the Pentagon and didn't blink...Score a victory for BYU Standards and a Loss to BYU ROTC members

 

http://www.sltrib.com/news/4968090-155/with-the-pentagon-on-the-telephone

 

I find it interesting that allowing the ROTC Commander to drink coffee in the privacy of his own home  "would fundamentally change who [BYU is] as a university."

And don't forget that BYU is named after a man that drank alcohol/tea and ran distilleries.  

[rockpond]

4 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Seems like forgoing your nightly Frappuccino would not be too great a compromise if the future of your job and the BYU ROTC program were at stake. 

It seems that neither side, BYU nor the Air Force, felt that the BYU AF ROTC program was worth making a sacrifice.

I know from our LDS perspective we're thinking:  Why won't the colonel just give up coffee?  But from the non-LDS perspective, they are thinking why is the University insisting that a non-Mormon Air Force colonel be removed from his position because he drinks coffee?

[Storm Rider]

2 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

As I stated earlier...I completely respect those who choose to abstain from consuming coffee over religious reason's or any other reason as in they just don't like it...that's all fine...just don't point your finger my way and tell me that there is something inherently evil about drinking coffee and those who chose to do so are sinning...which is what jane_doe was doing by putting coffee drinking in the same category as committing adultery

 

That is not understanding of the WofW.  Coffee, tea, etc. has nothing to do with being inherently bad or evil.  I believe in the WofW exactly as it is written in the 89th Section of the Doctrine & Covenants - no more and no less.  From reading the text I fail to see how anyone can derive at a point that states any of the eating/drinking counsel given is tied to a difference between evil and good. Disobedience, any disobedience, is the same thing - it is to choose contrary to what one believes is God's wishes, desires, covenants, etc. for the individual.  

It is without a doubt in my mind that a great many people have distorted the teachings on the WofW.  For me it is simple, read the text, follow it to the best of your ability; the more we learn to discipline all carnal desires the better we will be in strengthening our service and our relationship with God.

 

[Storm Rider]

15 minutes ago, rockpond said:

It seems that neither side, BYU nor the Air Force, felt that the BYU AF ROTC program was worth making a sacrifice.

I know from our LDS perspective we're thinking:  Why won't the colonel just give up coffee?  But from the non-LDS perspective, they are thinking why is the University insisting that a non-Mormon Air Force colonel be removed from his position because he drinks coffee?

I think it is more pointed than what you have presented.  There is an Honor Code at a private institution.  Though exceptions can be made - they are exceptions based on a reasonable review of very particular circumstances.  If an individual cannot live by the Honor Code of the private institution then that individual is not fit to attend, participate in the private institution.  

Every military person understands what it means when greeting another of much higher rank - an enlisted individual meeting an officer.  If, for some reason, an individual determines that it does not make sense to salute an officer then that individual will not be in the service much longer unless they are willing to conform to the rules of military behavior.  In the same manner that the military demands a very disciplined behavior from every member so a private institution may also demand a certain standard of behavior.  

I find it silly that this particular individual could not live by the code of conduct of  BYU - he should never have been considered for the position in the first place - but that is another matter.  The fact that the Honor Code is linked to religious reasons is irrelevant.  The only fact that is relevant is that an individual chose not to conform to an accepted code of conduct.  The military supported the individual and rather than find an individual who was willing to conform to a code of conduct preferred to move the program, which is their prerogative.   

It may be an unfortunate choice depending on your point of view and one's support of the military.  In a time when many universities protest their presence on campus the military brass has chosen to reject an institution that has long supported strongly them.  Yes, I find it stupid, shortsighted, and ignorant, but they never asked me my opinion.  It further underlines the point that I have no clue if the military is capable of identifying their friends from their enemies and I have strong doubts in their leadership's ability to evaluate a simple problem.  Religion had nothing to do with this situation and it appears it was the sole focus. 

[Ouagadougou]

1 hour ago, rockpond said:

It seems that neither side, BYU nor the Air Force, felt that the BYU AF ROTC program was worth making a sacrifice.

I know from our LDS perspective we're thinking:  Why won't the colonel just give up coffee?  But from the non-LDS perspective, they are thinking why is the University insisting that a non-Mormon Air Force colonel be removed from his position because he drinks coffee?

Meaningless rules and superstitions.  The Colonel could drink Red Bulls and Coke all day and they wouldn't care...but coffee...God hates that!

[bsjkki]

I don't think it was about the coffee. The broader implication for the military was those serving at BYU would have to pass a "religious test" which is illegal under current discrimination laws. This move is a benefit to both institutions in the long run.

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, Storm Rider said:

I think it is more pointed than what you have presented.  There is an Honor Code at a private institution.  Though exceptions can be made - they are exceptions based on a reasonable review of very particular circumstances.  If an individual cannot live by the Honor Code of the private institution then that individual is not fit to attend, participate in the private institution.  

Every military person understands what it means when greeting another of much higher rank - an enlisted individual meeting an officer.  If, for some reason, an individual determines that it does not make sense to salute an officer then that individual will not be in the service much longer unless they are willing to conform to the rules of military behavior.  In the same manner that the military demands a very disciplined behavior from every member so a private institution may also demand a certain standard of behavior.  

I find it silly that this particular individual could not live by the code of conduct of  BYU - he should never have been considered for the position in the first place - but that is another matter.  The fact that the Honor Code is linked to religious reasons is irrelevant.  The only fact that is relevant is that an individual chose not to conform to an accepted code of conduct.  The military supported the individual and rather than find an individual who was willing to conform to a code of conduct preferred to move the program, which is their prerogative.   

It may be an unfortunate choice depending on your point of view and one's support of the military.  In a time when many universities protest their presence on campus the military brass has chosen to reject an institution that has long supported strongly them.  Yes, I find it stupid, shortsighted, and ignorant, but they never asked me my opinion.  It further underlines the point that I have no clue if the military is capable of identifying their friends from their enemies and I have strong doubts in their leadership's ability to evaluate a simple problem.  Religion had nothing to do with this situation and it appears it was the sole focus. 

I, too, am surprised that the Air Force and one of its officers could not abide an honor code as guests of a host private institution. Of all entities, they should respect the value of an honor code. After all, they have their own strict and traditional codes to which they adhere religiously, even lethally. Taking a cup of coffee to the wall and then to the three star general level and above hardly seems proportional or honorable. Perhaps something larger is at play.

When seeking employment, most people would not accept a position that had certain conditions and then not only object to those conditions but take it upon themselves to forcefully change the conditions to their liking, even to the point of destroying the program to which they were hired. 

It's not about coffee or privacy. Gotta scratch my head on this one. 

[RevTestament]

On 2/23/2017 at 2:40 PM, The Nehor said:

I only eat steaks in summer when I am in a time of want.....wanting a steak.

Thanks for the chuckle Nehor. I have a nice juicy roast in the slow cooker right now.... it will be my only meat for today. Is that sparingly?

I tend to think of one helping of meat per day as being sparingly except for in times of famine... which fortunately I have not experienced.

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, Ouagadougou said:

And don't forget that BYU is named after a man that drank alcohol/tea and ran distilleries.  

And which is now presided over, and has been for many decades, by men who are prophets of God and apostles of Jesus, the legitimate successors of the man for whom the school is named. Please tell the rest of the history including BY's and other' struggle with implementing the WoW. 

[Ouagadougou]

35 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

And which is now presided over, and has been for many decades, by men who are prophets of God and apostles of Jesus, the legitimate successors of the man for whom the school is named. Please tell the rest of the history including BY's and other' struggle with implementing the WoW. 

BY didn't keep the WoW -- he drank alcohol, tea and smoked.  I don't think God cares if somebody drinks coffee or not...it's a meaningless superstition, IMO. The fact that somebody can eat fast food every day and drink sodas and energy drinks (and still be in compliance with the Honor Code and WoW) is comical and illustrates how the ridiculous these uninspired rules in the church and BYU have become.  

 

Church leaders should be more focused on the opioid crisis in Utah and not whether somebody is drinking coffee/tea wine and beer.  

 

https://www.theguardian.com/society/ng-interactive/2016/may/25/opioid-epidemic-overdose-deaths-map

[Calm]

7 hours ago, Buckeye said:

The point isn't whether the ROTC could find someone to abide by the HC, much less whether the HC was well-known. The point is that the ROTC has the right to decide what terms they will accept from institutions they work with. For whatever reason, they decided it best not to live with this requirement anymore. We could speculate forever as to "why" - but I find it best to accept President Worthen's take: the parties simply reached an impass. 

By the same token, BYU could choose to make an accommodation for ROTC faculty, but it chose not do. That's fine too. 

Fortunately, because of UVU's growth and closeness to BYU-P, both parties could find a resolution that works for everyone going forward. Yes, either party could have given in to the other. But that's not how adult relationships work. There is constant compromise and adjusting. Good to see that BYU and the ROTC acted like reasonable adults in this situation.

BYU could have extended their waiver from one year to three, the officer could have gone without for the three years.

Neither wanted to make the adjustment.  Therefore ROTC goes to UVU, thus avoiding future controversies over married gay officers and having to decide if it is really a religious test and whether it is therefore legal, etc.

Sounds like a happy ending to me for everyone.  BYU students can still participate, it may take a bit more work (may not as something was said about guest lecturers and drill leaders), but then UVU students had to before, so not unfair or that difficult for BYU students to be in that situation now.

[Calm]

5 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

As many or more people worldwide drink alcohol in some form. 

It's normal and good, apparently.

What if the issue were a martini before dinner at home?

Is my memory off, but wasn't it first shared as a desire to have a beer in the privacy of his own home?

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, Ouagadougou said:

BY didn't keep the WoW -- he drank alcohol, tea and smoked.  I don't think God cares if somebody drinks coffee or not...it's a meaningless superstition, IMO. The fact that somebody can eat fast food every day and drink sodas and energy drinks (and still be in compliance with the Honor Code and WoW) is comical and illustrates how the ridiculous these uninspired rules in the church and BYU have become.  

 

Church leaders should be more focused on the opioid crisis in Utah and not whether somebody is drinking coffee/tea wine and beer.  

 

https://www.theguardian.com/society/ng-interactive/2016/may/25/opioid-epidemic-overdose-deaths-map

You might inform yourself on the struggle the Church leaders had in the mid-1800s to implement the WoW. It's a fascinating story.

You are free to live the WoW as you see fit...as strictly as you wish or as lax as it is now interpreted in the temple commend interview. After all, it was given to the least of us. Our leaders have made it quite clear that opioids and drugs are not acceptable and are included in the WoW as it is interpreted. What makes you think they aren't focused on it?

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Is my memory off, but wasn't it first shared as a desire to have a beer in the privacy of his own home?

I don't know. Would it make a difference? I don't think so.

[california boy]

6 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

I think it is more pointed than what you have presented.  There is an Honor Code at a private institution.  Though exceptions can be made - they are exceptions based on a reasonable review of very particular circumstances.  If an individual cannot live by the Honor Code of the private institution then that individual is not fit to attend, participate in the private institution.  

Every military person understands what it means when greeting another of much higher rank - an enlisted individual meeting an officer.  If, for some reason, an individual determines that it does not make sense to salute an officer then that individual will not be in the service much longer unless they are willing to conform to the rules of military behavior.  In the same manner that the military demands a very disciplined behavior from every member so a private institution may also demand a certain standard of behavior.  

I find it silly that this particular individual could not live by the code of conduct of  BYU - he should never have been considered for the position in the first place - but that is another matter.  The fact that the Honor Code is linked to religious reasons is irrelevant.  The only fact that is relevant is that an individual chose not to conform to an accepted code of conduct.  The military supported the individual and rather than find an individual who was willing to conform to a code of conduct preferred to move the program, which is their prerogative.   

It may be an unfortunate choice depending on your point of view and one's support of the military.  In a time when many universities protest their presence on campus the military brass has chosen to reject an institution that has long supported strongly them.  Yes, I find it stupid, shortsighted, and ignorant, but they never asked me my opinion.  It further underlines the point that I have no clue if the military is capable of identifying their friends from their enemies and I have strong doubts in their leadership's ability to evaluate a simple problem.  Religion had nothing to do with this situation and it appears it was the sole focus. 

The question Rockpond asked is a valid question.  "Why is the University insisting that a non-Mormon Air Force colonel be removed from his position because he drinks coffee?"  Has he made covenants to God to not drink coffee?  Does he believe the WoW came from God through a prophet?  The ROTC is not part of the Mormon church.  Those that run the ROTC have not made any covenants with God to live by Mormon beliefs.  The military does not assign personal based on whether an officer is willing to follow the beliefs of Mormonism.  The church does not have any power over the military.  Nor should it.  To force someone who is not Mormon to honor covenants they have not made with God is unwarrented.  It is made even more silly when BYU allows visiting professors to not live by the honor code if they are only at BYU for a year.  What is that all about?  

The ROTC will do just fine somewhere else that doesn't require non members to be forced to live Mormon beliefs.  BYU will be just fine keeping those that won't embrace their theology away from their campus.  Everyone should be happy with this solution.  Both groups got exactly what they wanted.  The last thing we should be hearing is Mormons complaining that the ROTC is gone.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

I don't know. Would it make a difference? I don't think so.

No (he has no more covenanted to not drink alcohol than coffee, not any inherent sin in either), I just hate it when I misremembered stuff...which is all the time now, sigh.

Edited February 25, 2017 by Calm

[Storm Rider]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

The question Rockpond asked is a valid question.  "Why is the University insisting that a non-Mormon Air Force colonel be removed from his position because he drinks coffee?"  Has he made covenants to God to not drink coffee?  Does he believe the WoW came from God through a prophet?  The ROTC is not part of the Mormon church.  Those that run the ROTC have not made any covenants with God to live by Mormon beliefs.  The military does not assign personal based on whether an officer is willing to follow the beliefs of Mormonism.  The church does not have any power over the military.  Nor should it.  To force someone who is not Mormon to honor covenants they have not made with God is unwarrented.  It is made even more silly when BYU allows visiting professors to not live by the honor code if they are only at BYU for a year.  What is that all about?  

The ROTC will do just fine somewhere else that doesn't require non members to be forced to live Mormon beliefs.  BYU will be just fine keeping those that won't embrace their theology away from their campus.  Everyone should be happy with this solution.  Both groups got exactly what they wanted.  The last thing we should be hearing is Mormons complaining that the ROTC is gone.

I may have misunderstood, but the concept for those who attend BYU is to abide by the Honor Code, which includes the same rules that are contained in the Word of Wisdom.  It does not matter whether an individual is a LDS, an atheist, a Buddhist, a Muslim, or an Agnostic - those who attend - whether to teach or as a student - they must abide by the Honor Code.  No one is forced to be a LDS or believe in their religion, but they must abide by the Honor Code. 

For some bizarre reason this has never been an issue in the past.  Why? 

Only now has it become an issue because a ROTC teacher refused to abide by the Honor Code.  It has nothing to do with religion, religious beliefs or anything of the kind.  I find it beyond rational to insist that it does have something to do with religion - that is clearly a red herring that several want to hang their little hat upon.  It has everything to do with abiding by the Honor Code while attending or working at BYU.  

As I clearly stated before the military is built on living strictly by a code of behavior without any leeway for some twit to awake one day and choose not to abide by such a code of conduct.  If they do choose to act in such a manner they are quickly, immediately discharged from the military in a dishonorable manner.  Again, it is not about a religion; it is solely about while in the military you either abide by the code of conduct or you are not allowed to stay in the military.

Cal, why are you and others insisting it is about beliefs when it clearly is not?  Why do you insist on clouding the issue - popping the red herring - rather than just address the reality of the situation.  The military failed miserably by doing the exact thing you did - they raised a red herring about Mormon beliefs.  Again, it has absolutely nothing to do about Mormon beliefs, religion, etc.  It is only about will "you" abide by the Honor Code or not.