More Background on the Y's Decission to let the ROTC leave

[california boy]

44 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

The lawsuits referred to in the link are focused on those institutions that require an individual to belong to a specific faith - Christian in this instance.  That is not a requirement at BYU or of the Honor Code.  Do you read the link?  Do you see any similarity between what that article discussed and the situation at BYU's past ROTC program?  I don't.

I have read the Honor Code countless times and it never refers to the Word of Wisdom.  Maybe you are reading another Honor Code; please cite to the specific phrase that requires observance of the Word of Wisdom in the Honor Code.  It is not there in BYU's Honor Code. 

Again, a code of conduct is not and never has been a religious requirement.  It is a code of conduct very similar to the military's own code of conduct requirement.  

Yes I read the article.  And what I was referring to in the article is specifically this "The Army's ROTC program is undergoing a "holistic review".  My impression is that there is more impact on how the military is dealing with ROTC programs than just the requirements that the lawsuit addressed.

Sorry, but I am just rolling my eyeballs at this point on the WoW issue.  I never said that the honor code specifically sighted the WoW, only that the requirements of abstaining from alcohol, tobacco, coffee, and tea.  If you feel that has NO relationship to the church's teachings of the WoW, then I will leave you to your fantasy.  I don't mean to be rude, but at this point, I feel like you are only able to see this issue from the church point of view and everyone else is wrong to think differently. I can't understand how you are unwilling to accept that the military has reevaluated requirements of it's officers that run the ROTC program in religious schools and since BYU had a requirement to live the "principles" of the WoW, the military choose not to impose those requirements on it's officers.  They moved the program.  It is really that simple.  

[sjdawg]

9 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Or he could have withdrawn his application rather than destroy the program.That would also be a sign of integrity.

How was the program destroyed?  It was simply relocated.  

To me, it doesn't make sense to host the ROTC at a private university in the first place.

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, sjdawg said:

How was the program destroyed?  It was simply relocated.  

To me, it doesn't make sense to host the ROTC at a private university in the first place.

Today it is an honored tradition at BYU. Tomorrow it is not.

Check out the locations of ROTC programs.

http://army.com/info/rotc/schools

https://ink.niche.com/schools-offer-air-force-rotc/

Notice the A+ rating for the BYU AFROTC program. Nope. Doesn't make much sense at all.

Edited February 27, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[Five Solas]

On 2/25/2017 at 7:21 AM, bsjkki said:

The SL Trib has a new editorial. http://www.sltrib.com/opinion/4975721-155/tribune-editorial-air-force-officer-shows From the paper...

School leaders are entitled to their belief that such inflexibility is a sign of moral fiber. But, to the rest of the world, it smacks of mindless intransigence, an inability to make allowance for the fact that other people's standards can be no less ethical, even when they are not identical.

And if anyone is interested in a real lesson in ethics, consider: Hogan could have signed the Honor Code, just to be agreeable, then proceeded to violate it, perhaps on a daily basis, reasonably believing that nobody would ever know.

Mic drop.

--Erik

______________________________________________________

And we'll all drink stone wine
When Johnny comes marching home.

--Mitch Miller

[Bernard Gui]

On 2/25/2017 at 7:15 AM, california boy said:

The military operates all over the world in countries that have beliefs just like you are stating.  Show me a country where the military is required to live by those beliefs EVEN in the privacy of their own homes.   Or even on military bases.  If you can do that, then you would have a point.  

I am not saying that BYU doesn't have a right to demand anyone working or attending it's university to live the WoW as a condition of employment or enrollment.  They can do whatever they want.  But BYU can not expect or demand that the ROTC stay on campus when such rules are required.  And neither would your Abu Al Fallal Homeini Baghdadi University.  How is this even a question?

Well, my hypothetical was for university ROTC programs, not the military in foreign countries, although as I pointed out before, my son in Afghanistan was ordered to look the other way when they observed the Afghan military, militias, and tribal leaders abusing young boys. Seems like if our military can tolerate that, they can cut a little slack for a request not to drink coffee. Part of the ROTC job description includes the notice that while paid by the DoD, the officers are considered employees of the host universities and are expected to abide by their standards.

Edited February 27, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

22 hours ago, Yirgacheffe said:

This directly questions the motivation of not only the "military" but the man who refused to sign the honor code.  It implies it was a set up and that as the one who refused to sign it the code was in on the "method" used by the military to leave the campus.

When did the officer learn that the BYU Honor Code also applied to employees, LDS and non-LDS?

Edited February 27, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

39 minutes ago, Five Solas said:

Mic drop.

--Erik

______________________________________________________

And we'll all drink stone wine
When Johnny comes marching home.

--Mitch Miller

Picking up the mic. When did the officer learn that BYU employees...LDS and non-LDS...were required to keep the Honor Code? When he learned of the opening, when he applied for the position, when he was chosen as a finalist by the Air Force ROTC area supervisors, when he was offered the position, when BYU accepted him in a tenured professorship, after he signed the contract, before his first day on the job? Until then, the mic is open.

Edited February 27, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[Yirgacheffe]

10 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Part of the ROTC job description includes the notice that while paid by the DoD, the officers are considered employees of the host universities and are expected to abide by their standards.

I don't think it matters when the gentleman learned about the HC requirement.  At some point the parties in the military decided that this was an untenable situation and that as government employees they could not be required to abide by religious tenets in their own homes.  When it comes down to it it's the same as LDS members joining sports teams that have championship games on Sunday, if they are unwilling to play on Sunday should they forgo joining in the first place?

[california boy]

12 hours ago, sjdawg said:

How was the program destroyed?  It was simply relocated.  

To me, it doesn't make sense to host the ROTC at a private university in the first place.

Especially private institutions that have demand adhearance to religious beliefs that have nothing to do with morality or good conduct. 

[Bernard Gui]

24 minutes ago, california boy said:

Especially private institutions that have demand adhearance to religious beliefs that have nothing to do with morality or good conduct. 

Especially ones with A+ ratings.

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, Yirgacheffe said:

I don't think it matters when the gentleman learned about the HC requirement.  At some point the parties in the military decided that this was an untenable situation and that as government employees they could not be required to abide by religious tenets in their own homes.  When it comes down to it it's the same as LDS members joining sports teams that have championship games on Sunday, if they are unwilling to play on Sunday should they forgo joining in the first place?

Thanks for proving my point. When did the LDS athlete learn about Sunday games? It is critical to know when the problem was recognized. It would be poor form for an LDS athlete to move the franchise to a city that accomodated his desire not to play on Sunday.

[strappinglad]

I am sure that the military has a couple of rules about dress and hair and appearance which are on the side of arbitrary. They still seem to take them very seriously. One could argue whether there is any connection to being  " good'  or ' moral '. Still, join the military and they are yours to obey.

  The decision for the ROTC to stay or go was far above my paygrade. No skin off my teeth either way. Both entities will live with the consequences , as do we all.

[Storm Rider]

26 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

I am sure that the military has a couple of rules about dress and hair and appearance which are on the side of arbitrary. They still seem to take them very seriously. One could argue whether there is any connection to being  " good'  or ' moral '. Still, join the military and they are yours to obey.

  The decision for the ROTC to stay or go was far above my paygrade. No skin off my teeth either way. Both entities will live with the consequences , as do we all.

I appreciate your comment.  There is a knee-jerk reaction to become hot and bothered if an Honor Code can be tied to a religious teaching then scream bloody murder - the religionists are enforcing their beliefs on government employees and they must be destroyed for their insolence and their religion.  I find it beyond stupid that if a code of conduct is created out of the ether i.e. not tied directly to religious beliefs then all is good in the land of Oz and let's sing Kumbaya.  The minute that there is a similarity discovered then all bets are off, destroy the relationship, cancel the program and get out of dodge.  Do you see the stupidity of such logic?

I have never said that part of the motivation for a very small part of the Honor Code of BYU is derived from the LDS Word of Wisdom, but the creation of an Honor Code for a university that is open to all regardless of race, religion, sex, etc. reflects the actions of a great number of universities, military organizations, clubs, social organizations, etc.  Some how these codes of conduct are acceptable until the moment one can cry wolf - I see a direct relationship between an Honor Code and a religious belief.  Pure, unadulterated religious persecution.  At no time was there a religious measuring stick brought regardless of how many mindless, knee-jerk accusations are made by anti-religionists posing as open minded, tolerant, fair officers in the military or critics on this Board.  

If there was a requirement that specifically attempts to limit an individual to a specific religious belief or membership in a specific church then there is something to become excited about.  No organization can have such demands and still be chosen by the military or any other government entity to host a government related program.  This is not what occurred at BYU, but it appears it appeared elsewhere.  

I have been accused of only seeing it the LDS Church way.  A tiresome accusation when there is no foundation.  Is having a honor code or a code of conduct unique?  NO.  Is BYU's honor code unique?  NO.  Does the BYU Honor Code demand a specific religious membership?  NO.  Is there any mixing of church and state within BYU's Honor Code?  NO.  Was there a competitive process to win the assignment for BYU's program?  YES, it appears so or at least I read on this board that it was.  

So what we have is Hogan, the individual, competed for the position, won it, was assigned and then felt he could not sign the Honor Code.  Well DUH, Howdy Doodie gets stupid and I am supposed to wring my hands in worry?  Get real.  If you are not willing to live by the Honor Code don't apply for the position.  The fact that you did apply, competed and won tells me that somebody had a plan, that it was premeditated, and they got away with being disingenuous.  They take a program that the military themselves rates as one of the best and moves it - it is the method of the move that is so distasteful and demonstrates a lack of integrity.

You don't want any officers being required to sign the Honor Code then say that.  Give notice and then move.  Quit the theatrics and subterfuge - and for goodness sack don't whine that Mormons don't drink coffee and tea and therefore you are forcing me to be Mormon.  That accusation may work for the unthinking, but it does not work for anyone that actually can see the difference between a code of conduct and a religious belief.   

[Yirgacheffe]

3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Thanks for proving my point. When did the LDS athlete learn about Sunday games? It is critical to know when the problem was recognized. It would be poor form for an LDS athlete to move the franchise to a city that accomodated his desire not to play on Sunday.

But you didn't answer, should LDS girls who are unwilling to play on Sunday not join soccer teams because the games are played on Sunday?   I don't think it would be bad form to move a franchise to accommodate what they want though it is a reason my tepid interest in sports has been killed.

 

[Yirgacheffe]

2 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

Is BYU's honor code unique?  NO.

Yes it is unique, forbidding coffee and tea is unique to BYU and the LDS church.  It is LDS orthopraxis.

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, Yirgacheffe said:

But you didn't answer, should LDS girls who are unwilling to play on Sunday not join soccer teams because the games are played on Sunday?   I don't think it would be bad form to move a franchise to accommodate what they want though it is a reason my tepid interest in sports has been killed.

 

That's a choice the athlete has to make preferably before joining the team. Waiting until the championship to tell the coach "sorry...can't make it" is unfair. Kind of like a person

accepting a job and then objecting to the company policies after being hired. 

Are you saying that if an LDS athlete, professional or amateur, should demand his/her team disband and start a new franchise in another city as a condition for him/her playing on the team?

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, Yirgacheffe said:

Yes it is unique, forbidding coffee and tea is unique to BYU and the LDS church.  It is LDS orthopraxis.

So what? BYU's program is rated A+, among the very best in the country, before this silliness. It was good enough then, but not now?

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

I appreciate your comment.  There is a knee-jerk reaction to become hot and bothered if an Honor Code can be tied to a religious teaching then scream bloody murder - the religionists are enforcing their beliefs on government employees and they must be destroyed for their insolence and their religion.  I find it beyond stupid that if a code of conduct is created out of the ether i.e. not tied directly to religious beliefs then all is good in the land of Oz and let's sing Kumbaya.  The minute that there is a similarity discovered then all bets are off, destroy the relationship, cancel the program and get out of dodge.  Do you see the stupidity of such logic?

I have never said that part of the motivation for a very small part of the Honor Code of BYU is derived from the LDS Word of Wisdom, but the creation of an Honor Code for a university that is open to all regardless of race, religion, sex, etc. reflects the actions of a great number of universities, military organizations, clubs, social organizations, etc.  Some how these codes of conduct are acceptable until the moment one can cry wolf - I see a direct relationship between an Honor Code and a religious belief.  Pure, unadulterated religious persecution.  At no time was there a religious measuring stick brought regardless of how many mindless, knee-jerk accusations are made by anti-religionists posing as open minded, tolerant, fair officers in the military or critics on this Board.  

If there was a requirement that specifically attempts to limit an individual to a specific religious belief or membership in a specific church then there is something to become excited about.  No organization can have such demands and still be chosen by the military or any other government entity to host a government related program.  This is not what occurred at BYU, but it appears it appeared elsewhere.  

I have been accused of only seeing it the LDS Church way.  A tiresome accusation when there is no foundation.  Is having a honor code or a code of conduct unique?  NO.  Is BYU's honor code unique?  NO.  Does the BYU Honor Code demand a specific religious membership?  NO.  Is there any mixing of church and state within BYU's Honor Code?  NO.  Was there a competitive process to win the assignment for BYU's program?  YES, it appears so or at least I read on this board that it was.  

So what we have is Hogan, the individual, competed for the position, won it, was assigned and then felt he could not sign the Honor Code.  Well DUH, Howdy Doodie gets stupid and I am supposed to wring my hands in worry?  Get real.  If you are not willing to live by the Honor Code don't apply for the position.  The fact that you did apply, competed and won tells me that somebody had a plan, that it was premeditated, and they got away with being disingenuous.  They take a program that the military themselves rates as one of the best and moves it - it is the method of the move that is so distasteful and demonstrates a lack of integrity.

You don't want any officers being required to sign the Honor Code then say that.  Give notice and then move.  Quit the theatrics and subterfuge - and for goodness sack don't whine that Mormons don't drink coffee and tea and therefore you are forcing me to be Mormon.  That accusation may work for the unthinking, but it does not work for anyone that actually can see the difference between a code of conduct and a religious belief.   

This is why I think the timeline is critical. If the officer knew the conditions before signing the contract, he did not act honorably.

If he did not find out about it until meeting with his new employer after signing the contract, then someone in the hiring process messed up and should be removed from the system.

Apologies should be forthcoming from whichever entity failed to communicate or understand the conditions.

If the regional advisors knew of BYU's policy but purposely set out to create an issue to embarrass the school or shame it out of the program, that is reprehensible.

My major professor in my advanced degree program was non-LDS. He is an internationally recognized scholar in his field. He had no trouble signing and keeping

the Honor Code as an employee. I know because I was a frequent guest in his home.

Either way, there is no honor in having a code you do not intend to keep. 

 

Edited February 27, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[Storm Rider]

3 hours ago, Yirgacheffe said:

Yes it is unique, forbidding coffee and tea is unique to BYU and the LDS church.  It is LDS orthopraxis.

We may have a different definition of unique.  Just doing simple google search on coffee drinking in the USA - only 64% are identified as regular coffee drinkers.  Hmm...36% of people are not - hardly a unique (i.e. being the only one of its kind; unlike anything else) thing for people not to drink coffee or tea.  How about univerisities that restrict some form of drinking or eating - well another one of those searches reveals over 25 uniservisites in the US have such policies/codes of conduct.  Not unique.

Yup, we all get to have an opinion, but we don't get to have our own facts....unless we work in government and then it is a free for all, but I digress.

[Storm Rider]

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

This is why I think the timeline is critical. If the officer knew the conditions before signing the contract, he did not act honorably.

If he did not find out about it until meeting with his new employer after signing the contract, then someone in the hiring process messed up and should be removed from the system.

Apologies should be forthcoming from whichever entity failed to communicate or understand the conditions.

If the regional advisors knew of BYU's policy but purposely set out to create an issue to embarrass the school or shame it out of the program, that is reprehensible.

My major professor in my advanced degree program was non-LDS. He is an internationally recognized scholar in his field. He had no trouble signing and keeping

the Honor Code as an employee. I know because I was a frequent guest in his home.

Either way, there is no honor in having a code you do not intend to keep. 

 

I believe we think alike on this matter.  This action reeks of social activism.  It is the kind of action that leads to the type of stupidity practiced by so many groups on the Left - you have to think like me and talk like me or we will destroy your business, your lifelihood, and your career.

Case in point is the Outdoor retail expo that just gave notice to Utah - do what I say or we are out of here.  Isn't that a wonderful concept.  You either do it my way - think like me - or I am out of here.

It appears that the military is now being guided by the same type of social activists.  And people wonder why strange things happen when stupid becomes the "du jour" way of doing business.  

The Naval Academy has a drinking policy 0-0-1-3 - zero drinks for underclassmen (underage), zero drinks while driving, 1 drink per hour, and 3 drinks per event.  It is not a zero policy, but it is an attempt to modify, restrict behavior.  Who would of thunk it.  

[sjdawg]

10 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Especially ones with A+ ratings.

Who is being rated?  The Military or the host university?

In the end the rating doesn't matter.   The military has determined it is better suited for an alternative location.

[sjdawg]

9 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

Is there any mixing of church and state within BYU's Honor Code?  NO.  

I don't know how you say this with a straight face.  One issue specifically mentioned was BYU's desire to prevent the military officer from drinking coffee even while in his own home. That portion of the honor code exists only because of mormon belief. 

You can say that drinking coffee is a minor enjoyment that someone could realistically live without and I would agree with that.  Saying that there is no mixing of LDS religion within the honor code is false. I will agree it applies to both LDS and Non-LDS BYU attendees in the same way but it is absolutely an LDS requirement.  If BYU had only said don't drink coffee on campus I would support them. When they start dictating that the military office can't have a cup of coffee in his own home they lose me.

[sjdawg]

6 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

So what? BYU's program is rated A+, among the very best in the country, before this silliness. It was good enough then, but not now?

would either drinking (or abstaining from) coffee impact the quality of the program in any way?

 

[Calm]

34 minutes ago, sjdawg said:

I don't know how you say this with a straight face... 

Saying that there is no mixing of LDS religion within the honor code is false....

Can you point to what you see is the "mixing of Church and state"?  The mixing of religious beliefs with the Honor Code I get in the sense that it is a religious standard that led to that part of the Honor Code even if that part of the code is about action, not belief, but that is not what SR said in my view.

"So what we have is Hogan, the individual, competed for the position, won it, was assigned and then felt he could not sign the Honor Code"

Actually, my understanding is Hogan completed to be chosen for any of the 16? ROTC slots available nationwide.  As one of the approved, he was then assigned without his input to BYU.  Chances are any of the other openings he would not have been expected to alter his coffee habit and since the majority of past appointees were LDS, I believe, there is no reason to suppose he expected to be assigned to BYU and thus have to change his behaviors.

Perhaps this year there were for some reason no qualified LDS applying for the Army ROTC slot, so the administrators had to choose a nonLDS.  Perhaps administrators felt preference should simply be given to their top 16 people and none of the should be kicked simply because among the 16 there wasn't anyone who was willing to give up coffee (a distinct possibility, coffee drinking may be significantly higher among military than nonmilitary population, I will try and find out).  Or there could have been noncoffee drinkers that were smokers and the administrators chose what they saw as the less likely to offend.

Higher rates of smoking and drinking, no info on coffee yet:

http://www.military.com/daily-news/2016/11/10/service-members-vets-smoke-and-drink-more-sleep-less-report.html

relating to coffee usage, a quick skim shows quite a bit of coffee talk in military communities, including promoting coffee companies who 'give back'.  My guess is there is a current strong coffee culture within the military ranks, more so than general population:

https://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/08/16/the-marines-secret-weapon-coffee/?_r=0

"Basic Training

In the early days, while we were being trained as officers in Quantico, Va., we picked up the coffee habit during breaks between classes. The instructors explained that in just six months, we would be on the receiving end of more than 1,600 hours of formal instruction, what they called a master’s degree in death and destruction. The result was a perpetual sleep debt as we struggled to keep up with the fire hose of information.

When we weren’t out in the woods, we drank black coffee to stay awake during class. Nobody talked about recipes or ratios — on breaks, you threw a dollar into the metal tin, you filled up a plastic foam cup and you got back in the classroom. All you cared about was the caffeine keeping you stimulated for the next hour. At night, as we reviewed tactics and influential battles, it was the same story. Burned, bitter, black coffee by the liter, a constant companion. Make a pot, share it with the rest of your team, and settle in for a few hours of studying. 

In the Field 

Each Meal Ready to Eat came with an entree, a snack for when you were on the go, a dessert to help with morale, and an assortment of small items to provide variety. Sometimes you would get a packet of hot chocolate, other times instant coffee or apple cider, and other times tea. Since Marines have different preferences, an intricate barter system evolved, and it was especially useful when assembling the components to make coffee."

Similar discussion, includes photos:

https://www.aol.com/food/history-coffee-military/

Edited February 28, 2017 by Calm

[sjdawg]

10 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Thanks for proving my point. When did the LDS athlete learn about Sunday games? It is critical to know when the problem was recognized. It would be poor form for an LDS athlete to move the franchise to a city that accomodated his desire not to play on Sunday.

When I was a teenager  I played hockey.   Usually we didn't have league games on Sundays but in tournaments the championship games were often held on Sundays.  My parents did not allow me to participate in these games.  Should I have been kicked off the team?   I appreciate that my team allowed me to remain on the team and respected my religion.  It could have easily replaced me with someone who would be there for the most important games.   No one asked "when did you learn about Sunday games?"  They simply accommodated our different beliefs and got on with life.