sjdawg Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 2 minutes ago, Calm said: Can you point to what you see is the "mixing of Church and state"? The mixing of religious beliefs with the Honor Code I get, but that is not what SR said in my view. Does the state care if the military officer has a cup of coffee in his own? I don't think so. Does the Church care? Apparently so. I have no issue with BYU imposing the restriction when the officer is on-duty or at work. I have an issue with a religious requirement (from a religion he doesn't belong to) following the officer home at the end of the work day. 2
Calm Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 (edited) Okay, but I still don't get what the "mixing of Church and state" is given the same rules apply to nonROTC nonmember employees. He isn't being required by BYU not to drink coffee because he is an ROTC employee. BYU is not dictating to the military in general. They are dictating to BYU employees and students, some of who have a connection with the military through ROTC. Edited February 28, 2017 by Calm 1
Calm Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22709816 "Eighty-percent of the US adult population regularly consumes caffeine, but limited information is available on the extent and patterns of use. Caffeine use is a public health issue and its risks and benefits are regularly considered in scientific literature and the lay media. Recently, new caffeine-containing products have been introduced and are widely available on Army bases and are added to rations to maintain cognitive performance. This study surveyed caffeine consumption and demographic characteristics in 990 US Army soldiers. Data were weighted by age, sex, rank, and Special Forces status. Total caffeine intake and intake from specific products were estimated. Logistic regression was used to examine relationships between caffeine use and soldier demographic and lifestyle characteristics. Eighty-two percent of soldiers consumed caffeine at least once a week. Mean daily caffeine consumption was 285 mg/day (347 mg/day among regular caffeine consumers). Male soldiers consumed, on average, 303 mg/day and females 163 mg/day (regular consumers: 365 mg/day for male soldiers, 216 mg/day for female soldiers). Coffee was the main source of caffeine intake. Among young males, energy drinks were the largest source of caffeine intake, but their intake was not greater than older males. Regression analysis indicated an association of higher caffeine intake with male sex, white race, and tobacco use (P<0.01). Most soldiers consume caffeine in levels accepted as safe, but some consume greater quantities than recommended, although definitive information on safe upper limits of caffeine intake is not available. Labels of caffeine-containing products should provide caffeine content so individuals can make informed decisions. Copyright © 2012 Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics. Published by Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved."
Yirgacheffe Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 7 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: Are you saying that if an LDS athlete, professional or amateur, should demand his/her team disband and start a new franchise in another city as a condition for him/her playing on the team? I don't think so.... but I'm not sure I understand your question here.
Yirgacheffe Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 7 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: So what? BYU's program is rated A+, among the very best in the country, before this silliness. It was good enough then, but not now? It's rating doesn't matter if the military has decided that it is better for them not to make accommodations for universities that put religious requirements on military members. 1
Calm Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 Smoking appears to still be high in the military (about a third use) and may be increasing in use: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoking_in_the_United_States_military Alcohol appears to be a significant part of military culture: https://www.stripes.com/us-military-s-alcohol-soaked-culture-taking-toll-on-servicemembers-1.201959#.WLT-GpFfOhB Per previous posts, we have 82% of military regular coffee drinkers. So probably not too many no alcohol, no smoking, no coffee personnel. Throw in no sex outside of marriage, no homosexuality, the pool drops in numbers. If an LDS or someone who lives by the same standard as the BYU Honor Code is not among the top 16 candidates for ROTC positions, should someone with lower qualifications, but who lives by the standard get the job by kicking out someone who has higher qualities, but sees the Honor Code as an invasion of his/her privacy? What if the only ones found were among the lowest in skills and abilities? Should quality of teaching be compromised for .Honor Code observance? 1
Yirgacheffe Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 4 hours ago, Storm Rider said: Just doing simple google search on coffee drinking in the USA - only 64% are identified as regular coffee drinkers. Hmm...36% of people are not - hardly a unique The issue is not who chooses to drink coffee or tea but if it is religiously forbidden. 4 hours ago, Storm Rider said: well another one of those searches reveals over 25 uniservisites in the US have such policies/codes of conduct I'm having a hard time finding anything other than alcohol, and many of the cases I see forbid underage consumption. Could you give a link to your results? 1
Yirgacheffe Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 4 hours ago, Storm Rider said: It appears that the military is now being guided by the same type of social activists. I don't see any social activism here just the military saying we won't force people into the religious practices of any religion. 2
cdowis Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 (edited) 56 minutes ago, sjdawg said: Does the state care if the military officer has a cup of coffee in his own? I don't think so. Does the Church care? Apparently so. I have no issue with BYU imposing the restriction when the officer is on-duty or at work. I have an issue with a religious requirement (from a religion he doesn't belong to) following the officer home at the end of the work day. The issue is NOT a "cup of coffee" but the refusal to sign and abide by the Honor Code, as it applies to EVERY student and faculty member (with rare exceptions which BYU does not see here). . In case you are unaware, it goes well beyond a up of coffee, including living the law of morality, honesty, etc. If he were allowed this refusal, and serious violations were made by this individual, the school would have a serious issue where, basically allowed this behaviour. A cup of coffee?? Edited February 28, 2017 by cdowis 1
Calm Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 (edited) 7 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: Are you saying that if an LDS athlete, professional or amateur, should demand his/her team disband and start a new franchise in another city as a condition for him/her playing on the team? The ROTC didn't disband. Classes and drills are still being taught at BYU and UVU as they were in the past. Only some activities have switched from being centered at UVU instead of BYU and it is being run from UVU instead of BYU (a distance of 5 miles and 10-15 minutes travel time). BYU ROTC has not been shut down in my understanding. Past UVU students had to travel for some of their ROTC requirements to BYU. Now it is reversed. This is in no way comparable imo to starting a whole new franchise in another city. It is closer to shifting to a practice field closer to a coach's home, though still equally accessible to all team members on average, just some of the players who had a shorter trip to practice now have a longer one while other players who had a longer one now get the short trip. Now BYU students are slightly inconvenienced while before it was the UVU students. There is, imo, nothing inherently more deserving among the BYU ROTC students that gives them the privilege of having less inconvenience than UVU ROTC students. The move does not remove access from BYU students or add a significant hardship to their life. https://www.uvu.edu/rotc/program-about_rotc/battalion.html http://www.uvu.edu/catalog/current/departments/air-force-and-army-rotc/ Edited February 28, 2017 by Calm 3
Yirgacheffe Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 53 minutes ago, Calm said: BYU is not dictating to the military in general. They are dictating to BYU employees and students, some of who have a connection with the military through ROTC. If they are paid by the military then they are employees of the federal government. This is where the trouble starts.
Yirgacheffe Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 50 minutes ago, Calm said: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22709816 "Eighty-percent of the US adult population regularly consumes caffeine, but limited information is available on the extent and patterns of use. Caffeine use is a public health issue and its risks and benefits are regularly considered in scientific literature and the lay media. Recently, new caffeine-containing products have been introduced and are widely available on Army bases and are added to rations to maintain cognitive performance. This study surveyed caffeine consumption and demographic characteristics in 990 US Army soldiers. Data were weighted by age, sex, rank, and Special Forces status. Total caffeine intake and intake from specific products were estimated. Logistic regression was used to examine relationships between caffeine use and soldier demographic and lifestyle characteristics. Eighty-two percent of soldiers consumed caffeine at least once a week. Mean daily caffeine consumption was 285 mg/day (347 mg/day among regular caffeine consumers). Male soldiers consumed, on average, 303 mg/day and females 163 mg/day (regular consumers: 365 mg/day for male soldiers, 216 mg/day for female soldiers). Coffee was the main source of caffeine intake. Among young males, energy drinks were the largest source of caffeine intake, but their intake was not greater than older males. Regression analysis indicated an association of higher caffeine intake with male sex, white race, and tobacco use (P<0.01). Most soldiers consume caffeine in levels accepted as safe, but some consume greater quantities than recommended, although definitive information on safe upper limits of caffeine intake is not available. Labels of caffeine-containing products should provide caffeine content so individuals can make informed decisions. Copyright © 2012 Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics. Published by Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved." But caffeine is not the issue, coffee is.
Calm Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 1 minute ago, Yirgacheffe said: If they are paid by the military then they are employees of the federal government. This is where the trouble starts. According to BG's research iirc, they are being paid by the school...though my husband just shared the schools are probably receiving federal funding for it and if so, if BYU is only in essence managing federal money, which does change my view on how much input they would have. 1
Calm Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Yirgacheffe said: But caffeine is not the issue, coffee is. It says main source was coffee. Edited February 28, 2017 by Calm
Calm Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 (edited) 36 minutes ago, cdowis said: The issue is NOT a "cup of coffee" but the refusal to sign and abide by the Honor Code, as it applies to EVERY student and faculty member (with rare exceptions which BYU does not see here). . In case you are unaware, it goes well beyond a up of coffee, including living the law of morality, honesty, etc. If he were allowed this refusal, and serious violations were made by this individual, the school would have a serious issue where, basically allowed this behaviour. A cup of coffee?? So it makes good sense to move the headquarters to UVU, right? Edited February 28, 2017 by Calm 2
california boy Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 11 hours ago, Storm Rider said: I appreciate your comment. There is a knee-jerk reaction to become hot and bothered if an Honor Code can be tied to a religious teaching then scream bloody murder - the religionists are enforcing their beliefs on government employees and they must be destroyed for their insolence and their religion. I find it beyond stupid that if a code of conduct is created out of the ether i.e. not tied directly to religious beliefs then all is good in the land of Oz and let's sing Kumbaya. The minute that there is a similarity discovered then all bets are off, destroy the relationship, cancel the program and get out of dodge. Do you see the stupidity of such logic? I have never said that part of the motivation for a very small part of the Honor Code of BYU is derived from the LDS Word of Wisdom, but the creation of an Honor Code for a university that is open to all regardless of race, religion, sex, etc. reflects the actions of a great number of universities, military organizations, clubs, social organizations, etc. Some how these codes of conduct are acceptable until the moment one can cry wolf - I see a direct relationship between an Honor Code and a religious belief. Pure, unadulterated religious persecution. At no time was there a religious measuring stick brought regardless of how many mindless, knee-jerk accusations are made by anti-religionists posing as open minded, tolerant, fair officers in the military or critics on this Board. If there was a requirement that specifically attempts to limit an individual to a specific religious belief or membership in a specific church then there is something to become excited about. No organization can have such demands and still be chosen by the military or any other government entity to host a government related program. This is not what occurred at BYU, but it appears it appeared elsewhere. I have been accused of only seeing it the LDS Church way. A tiresome accusation when there is no foundation. Is having a honor code or a code of conduct unique? NO. Is BYU's honor code unique? NO. Does the BYU Honor Code demand a specific religious membership? NO. Is there any mixing of church and state within BYU's Honor Code? NO. Was there a competitive process to win the assignment for BYU's program? YES, it appears so or at least I read on this board that it was. So what we have is Hogan, the individual, competed for the position, won it, was assigned and then felt he could not sign the Honor Code. Well DUH, Howdy Doodie gets stupid and I am supposed to wring my hands in worry? Get real. If you are not willing to live by the Honor Code don't apply for the position. The fact that you did apply, competed and won tells me that somebody had a plan, that it was premeditated, and they got away with being disingenuous. They take a program that the military themselves rates as one of the best and moves it - it is the method of the move that is so distasteful and demonstrates a lack of integrity. You don't want any officers being required to sign the Honor Code then say that. Give notice and then move. Quit the theatrics and subterfuge - and for goodness sack don't whine that Mormons don't drink coffee and tea and therefore you are forcing me to be Mormon. That accusation may work for the unthinking, but it does not work for anyone that actually can see the difference between a code of conduct and a religious belief. Tell me. Do you freak out like this when someone applies to go to BYU and then finds out they are not allowed to drink coffee, so instead applies and attends UVU? Is this also a social plot by the left to destroy religion? You are so off base on this one. This whole issue is about the military no longer requiring personnel to abide by an honor code that is based partially upon unique religious beliefs that are not a part of the military requirements. The military was gracious enough to allow BYU ROTC students to continue to participate at a place 15 minutes away. Oh the travasty. Religion is being persecuted by the Left. "Pure, unadulterated religious persecution." Really? 2
california boy Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 49 minutes ago, Calm said: The ROTC didn't disband. Classes and drills are still being taught at BYU and UVU as they were in the past. Only some activities have switched from being centered at UVU instead of BYU and it is being run from UVU instead of BYU (a distance of 5 miles and 10-15 minutes travel time). BYU ROTC has not been shut down in my understanding. Past UVU students had to travel for some of their ROTC requirements to BYU. Now it is reversed. This is in no way comparable imo to starting a whole new franchise in another city. It is closer to shifting to a practice field closer to a coach's home, though still equally accessible to all team members on average, just some of the players who had a shorter trip to practice now have a longer one while other players who had a longer one now get the short trip. Now BYU students are slightly inconvenienced while before it was the UVU students. There is, imo, nothing inherently more deserving among the BYU ROTC students that gives them the privilege of having less inconvenience than UVU ROTC students. The move does not remove access from BYU students or add a significant hardship to their life. https://www.uvu.edu/rotc/program-about_rotc/battalion.html http://www.uvu.edu/catalog/current/departments/air-force-and-army-rotc/ Thank you for this post and for your other postes. Well thought out and rationally reasoned. Moving the ROTC program is not a plot to destroy religious liberty. It is simply a good faith response to accomodating BYU's honor code requirements. 2
Calm Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 (edited) 19 minutes ago, california boy said: The military was gracious enough to allow BYU ROTC students to continue to participate at a place 15 minutes away. My understanding from reading the announcement is some classes and drills will still be held at BYU, the teacher will be designated as a "guest lecturer" and thus only be required to abide by Honor Code while on campus just like all the rest of the guest lecturers. BYU has not had to change any of its procedures or applications of standards while BYU students still get to participate just as they did before, at most having to travel for some classes, but not all, just as UVU students had to in the past (and may still have to If a particular class is offered at the Y). My husband has walked by ROTC classes many times over the years at UVU, even though they were of a BYU battalion. Sounds like the reverse will now be true, it will be the Wolverine Battalion, with BYU army ROTC students being designated Cougar Company (not sure if Troop or Company). Edited February 28, 2017 by Calm 2
Calm Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 (edited) Google maps says 12 minutes travel time from BYU to UVU ROTC. Of course the main issue at either university is parking. Given UVU's location on the outskirts of campus, it is probably easier for BYU students to find parking there than UVU students to find parking at BYU even with the large parking lot north of the ROTC building (speaking from personal experience of trying to find spaces in that parking lot). Edited February 28, 2017 by Calm 1
Yirgacheffe Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 45 minutes ago, Calm said: It says main source was coffee. Still the issue is not caffeine, it's coffee. Everybody here holds coffee in contempt, it irritates me. My in-laws have 9 children, over the years I have sat at the kitchen table with them (now just MIL) drinking coffee and talking for hours on end. To this day friends of their children stop by and sit long over a cup of coffee. You all think it's just a cup of coffee but it has as much comfort value to others as your vaunted "funeral potatoes". Coffee is comfort food, 1
Calm Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 (edited) I have no contempt for coffee. Who here do you think has? I know there are some LDS who see it as sinful, confusing the difference between sinning through breaking a covenant and something being inherently sinful; but in my experience these are a minority...though in Utah kids not seeing it much may be confused more easily than LDS kids elsewhere. I find the coffee culture quite appealing, but am very grateful that I was born LDS because caffeine is nasty to my own sleep disorder. I see it as quite useful in general, though should probably be used with care by anyone with sleep or anxiety issues. The only time I take caffeine is with an unbearable migraine and then I bless its existence. Edited February 28, 2017 by Calm
sunstoned Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 3 hours ago, Calm said: Google maps says 12 minutes travel time from BYU to UVU ROTC. Of course the main issue at either university is parking. Given UVU's location on the outskirts of campus, it is probably easier for BYU students to find parking there than UVU students to find parking at BYU even with the large parking lot north of the ROTC building (speaking from personal experience of trying to find spaces in that parking lot). There is also the option to take the bus. BYU and UVU are destinations on the same bus route.
Bernard Gui Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 (edited) 7 hours ago, sjdawg said: Who is being rated? The Military or the host university? In the end the rating doesn't matter. The military has determined it is better suited for an alternative location. But at what cost? Apparently you missed my post showing the ratings of all college and university ROTC programs. BYU's AFROTC program is one of the few rated A+. This is an odd thing to do to an A+ program, what? https://ink.niche.com/schools-offer-air-force-rotc/ Edited February 28, 2017 by Bernard Gui
sjdawg Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 6 hours ago, Calm said: Okay, but I still don't get what the "mixing of Church and state" is given the same rules apply to nonROTC nonmember employees. He isn't being required by BYU not to drink coffee because he is an ROTC employee. BYU is not dictating to the military in general. They are dictating to BYU employees and students, some of who have a connection with the military through ROTC. Here is a different example. I live in the middle east. I am assigned to work within an organization that is primarily Muslim. A middle east organization pays my salary (but the funding comes through my american company). Should I be required to fast during Ramadan like my Muslim coworkers? I am not required to do so. What I am required to do is be respectful of those who are fasting. I don't eat or drink in front of them. If I am eating I make sure my office door is closed. No one cares. I guess Muslims are more open minded than BYU. 1
sjdawg Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 6 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: But at what cost? Apparently you missed my post showing the ratings of all college and university ROTC programs. BYU's AFROTC program is one of the few rated A+. This is an odd thing to do to an A+ program, what? https://ink.niche.com/schools-offer-air-force-rotc/ I understand what you are saying but I don't understand how the rating is developed. What is contributing to the score? BYU or the ROTC commander? Or something else entirely?
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