thesometimesaint Posted January 28, 2017 Posted January 28, 2017 I have no idea, but we do know that some people do have that trial in this life.
bluebell Posted January 28, 2017 Posted January 28, 2017 1 hour ago, Teancum said: So you think God would send someone to this earth that was not intersex in the pre earth life but is in this life? To what end? Would it be different than sending someone into this life with disabilities (mental or physical) when they weren't that way in the pre existence? 2
CV75 Posted January 28, 2017 Posted January 28, 2017 3 hours ago, Teancum said: So you think God would send someone to this earth that was not intersex in the pre earth life but is in this life? To what end? I think He would do everything He set His mind to do, the end being His work and glory. In light of the big picture, I don’t see an eternal downside for spirits inhabiting intersex bodies in mortality. The human inhabitants of all the worlds, no matter what we might think of their or our own bodies, are begotten sons and daughters of God (D&C 76:24), meaning His male and female spirit children are brought into a mortal body and later a perfected immortal body according to the quickening power granted these same spirits (D&C 88:27-28). It seems there is a false assumption that an intersex body can be inhabited only one spirit. That may not always be the case, as what we see as one person may actually be two spirits in two bodies that melded together. For example, one person can have two sets of DNA, one male and one female (human chimera), each expressed to varying degrees ranging from equal to one sex phenotype not being at all noticeable. Who is to say one spirit isn't dormant throughout this physical existence while the other is not; who is to say the two spirits are not so in tune / enmeshed with each other they act and appear as one? That person would be no more worthless to God than an infant that never develops, one way or another, beyond birth.
readstoomuch Posted January 29, 2017 Posted January 29, 2017 I still assume that our Heavenly Parents created man and woman in their image. Certainly unfair things happen. One of our best friends and relief society president with a brain cancer diagnosed a week ago and to another a baby born with leukemia at birth. I don`t understand that any more than I understand the person who was born intersex. I choose to believe that it will work out. I don`t know how, but it will.
Calm Posted January 29, 2017 Posted January 29, 2017 4 hours ago, bluebell said: Would it be different than sending someone into this life with disabilities (mental or physical) when they weren't that way in the pre existence? This assumes being intersexed is something wrong, undesirable. It might be something closer to personality attributes that are not inherently problematic, but may add to difficulties depending on context. For example, there is nothing undesirable in general in being an introvert, it can even be very helpful in some ways. But if one is required in one's career choice to be a public speaker, introversion can then create hardships for that individual that an extroverted person doesn't experience. I see introversion/extroversion as likely only applicable to mortality...or at least something that is not likely to be an eternal attribute given how we are likely all capable of being open/exposed/fully engaged and aware of others due to the communal oneness with God as well as the likely ability of being completely open to our surroundings that will come with omniscience.
Teancum Posted January 29, 2017 Posted January 29, 2017 7 hours ago, bluebell said: Would it be different than sending someone into this life with disabilities (mental or physical) when they weren't that way in the pre existence? I guess not. But then I am skeptical about the whole God gives us weaknesses as well as intentional disabilities in order to test us thing. 2
Stargazer Posted January 29, 2017 Posted January 29, 2017 (edited) Never mind Edited January 29, 2017 by Stargazer
Stargazer Posted January 29, 2017 Posted January 29, 2017 1 minute ago, Teancum said: I guess not. But then I am skeptical about the whole God gives us weaknesses as well as intentional disabilities in order to test us thing. Why are you skeptical? It seems to me that this whole life is a test, from children dying too young, to our losing our spouses, to auto accidents, to temptations to do wrong. If these things were not all part of the test, why the heck would they happen? There's sufficient scripture to cover this, I think.
Teancum Posted January 29, 2017 Posted January 29, 2017 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Stargazer said: Good grief, what on earth are you on about? I know a man who was born with vestigial hands His lower legs were also vestigial and he could never have walked with them. Do you think he had vestigial members in the pre-earth life and will be resurrected that way, too? Sorry if I offended you. As noted I am highly skeptical of the idea that there is a God being that intentionally designs us to try and test us. do you believe in such a God? Edited January 29, 2017 by Teancum
Teancum Posted January 29, 2017 Posted January 29, 2017 3 minutes ago, Stargazer said: Why are you skeptical? It seems to me that this whole life is a test, from children dying too young, to our losing our spouses, to auto accidents, to temptations to do wrong. If these things were not all part of the test, why the heck would they happen? There's sufficient scripture to cover this, I think. Why aren't you so skeptical? just because something is in a text some believe is scripture does not make it so. Plenty of texts out there some think are scripture that you likely would not. Right? I struggle mightily reconciling the problem of evil and suffering with what I have been taught about the Judeao Christian and Mormon God. If you don't that's ok with me. I am just sharing my view. There was a time I did not struggle and feel skeptical about this issue. Now I do. I wonder why others I know who are LDS don't so much. But that's ok. I don't try to change their minds. Nor do I criticize them for it.
Stargazer Posted January 29, 2017 Posted January 29, 2017 Just now, Teancum said: Sorry if I offended you. As noted I am highly skeptical of the idea that there is a God being that intentionally designs us to try and test us. Darnit, you didn't offend me. What gave you that idea, anyway? I was just expressing my amazement. Kind of hard without having tonality! Now, I don't know if God intentionally gives us broken bodies and minds, or if they just happen, but it would be pretty weird if He didn't know about these cases in advance. And knowing about them in advance, how else can we take it, except to say that God gives us these things. Well, it's a good question anyway. Like, for example, you as a case in point: you're clearly a man with a skeptical bent. Did God make you that way, did you do it to yourself, or is it simply a matter of random chance? I say, any way you stack it, it is YOU, Teancum, who must deal with it, and if you deal with it well, then I guess God can say that you have overcome your limitations. And if that limitation handicaps you to the extent that you cannot overcome it, then it seems to me that God won't hold you responsible for it. But I don't think this excuses your giving up on yourself. Just be the best you can be.
Stargazer Posted January 29, 2017 Posted January 29, 2017 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Teancum said: Why aren't you so skeptical? just because something is in a text some believe is scripture does not make it so. Plenty of texts out there some think are scripture that you likely would not. Right? I struggle mightily reconciling the problem of evil and suffering with what I have been taught about the Judeao Christian and Mormon God. If you don't that's ok with me. I am just sharing my view. There was a time I did not struggle and feel skeptical about this issue. Now I do. I wonder why others I know who are LDS don't so much. But that's ok. I don't try to change their minds. Nor do I criticize them for it. I definitely understand the difficulty of reconciling the problem of evil and suffering. It used to bother me, too. The solution for me is rather simple. If God, as we understand Him, actually exists (and I am convinced this God does exist), then there MUST be purpose to our mortality and all the stings that are associated with it. We all must die, and we all must suffer. Some suffer to a greater degree than others. But it is all a part of life. If the suffering and death have no purpose, and we exist merely as a momentary blip in the matter-space-time continuum, to be "conscious" one moment and be extinguished the next, then I see no reason for ANY of it and I want no part of it. But all of the beauty of human consciousness, and all of the love, and especially the communion that I have enjoyed with God over the years, all of that has convinced me that skepticism is misplaced. He does live. He has placed us here in order to test us for advancement to His status, for whatever reason He has. And I glory in it! It is a worthy goal. You know the old saying about how some see a glass half full of water, and some see it half empty? Well, I see the glass as full to the brim, and I am so very sad sometimes that others see the glass as empty, just because the meniscus is even with the rim. Edited January 29, 2017 by Stargazer 1
JAHS Posted January 29, 2017 Author Posted January 29, 2017 16 hours ago, Calm said: I see introversion/extroversion as likely only applicable to mortality I don't know. If we start taking away all perceived undesirable personality (or physical) traits that are removed at the resurrection we might all end up losing our individuality and become a bunch of boring clones of each other. Where does one draw the line between what is desirable and undesirable? To me being a short person is an undesirable physical trait. Will I grow 6 more inches at the resurrection?
Calm Posted January 29, 2017 Posted January 29, 2017 Who says introversion/extroversion is undesirable? I am instead saying it is an irrelevant attribute in a community that communicates, or even lives by the property of being one. I believe there are plenty of other factors...perhaps even some that influenced the mortal attribute of introversion/extroversion...to create individuality.
JAHS Posted January 30, 2017 Author Posted January 30, 2017 7 minutes ago, Calm said: Who says introversion/extroversion is undesirable? I am instead saying it is an irrelevant attribute in a community that communicates, or even lives by the property of being one. I believe there are plenty of other factors...perhaps even some that influenced the mortal attribute of introversion/extroversion...to create individuality. OK, but you did say that introversion/extroversion or at least something that is not likely to be an eternal attribute. I think such attributes are an integral part of our personalities which we will take with us. At least I plan to take my introverted personality with me when I go. If not my wife may not recognize me.
Calm Posted January 30, 2017 Posted January 30, 2017 (edited) I am just trying to point out using neutral terms that some things that we see as integral to our personality or identity may not 'exist' because we have moved past the limited expression of mortality. For me, arguments of what is eternal quality and what isn't are relatively useless as I suspect our progression will bring us way past the point that mortals can picture accurately, let alone understand. An analogy that I have no reason to assume is accurate, but hopefully conveys what .I am getting at... Most people I suspect would hope that we have our voices. Some who identify as singers might feel on being told that it was likely we wouldn't have vocal cords that they would no longer be the same individual if this is true, that their identity would be fundamentally different as expressing music with their voice was such a huge part of their life, their way of expressing who they are. But what if the loss of vocal cords occurred because we no longer needed them? Instead of singing and speaking, we were able to make the air vibrate directly with our minds/spirit/whatever. So now instead of working with something that might only approximate what we imagine, we can fully express our musical ability...unlimited by lack of coordination in our fingers or a poorly shaped throat or allergies (as it is in my case). Or skip the air vibration completely and instead imagine music as it is meant to be...not only sound, but passion and thought and spirit as well...experienced being to being, intimately and directly. By being one, we fully comprehend the other's experience of the music while also fully comprehending/fully aware of our own unique experience and sharing that with them, which sharing then creates a whole new level of experience that resonates and reflects infinitely within ourselves and the rest of the eternal community. Vocal cords become the equivalent of training wheels to be put aside and forgotten as true mastery is accomplished over ourselves as well as our environment. I think a huge majority of what we think of as "Me" will end up as nostalgic memories like the vocal cords in my analogy. Edited January 30, 2017 by Calm
strappinglad Posted January 30, 2017 Posted January 30, 2017 I suppose it all depends on how you look at it. http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=born+with+head+upside+down&qpvt=born+with+head+upside+down&qpvt=born+with+head+upside+down&qpvt=born+with+head+upside+down&FORM=IGRE
california boy Posted January 30, 2017 Posted January 30, 2017 On 1/27/2017 at 4:06 PM, JAHS said: Sounds like reasonable thinking. But how can such people claiming no gender be members of the church in this life? If they claim no gender can they be given the priesthood? Can they get married in the temple? If this life is the time to prepare to meet God what good is this life if they are going to have to wait for the resurrection anyway to find out what gender they are? I suppose they can prove themselves in other ways, but there isn't much chance for progression in this life. So, I didn't see any answer to your question. Can they be given the priesthood? Can they choose what gender they marry? Are they allowed to marry anyone in the temple? How does the church handle someone who is a hermaphroditic
JAHS Posted January 30, 2017 Author Posted January 30, 2017 42 minutes ago, california boy said: So, I didn't see any answer to your question. Can they be given the priesthood? Can they choose what gender they marry? Are they allowed to marry anyone in the temple? How does the church handle someone who is a hermaphroditic Normally such people have decided early in life which gender they will choose to live as. From what I have found, If someone has identified themselves as a man then it is possible for them to receive the priesthood, but each situation could be different. According to current church policy, members who have undergone an “elective transsexual operation” are not eligible to receive the priesthood.
california boy Posted January 30, 2017 Posted January 30, 2017 1 hour ago, JAHS said: Normally such people have decided early in life which gender they will choose to live as. From what I have found, If someone has identified themselves as a man then it is possible for them to receive the priesthood, but each situation could be different. According to current church policy, members who have undergone an “elective transsexual operation” are not eligible to receive the priesthood. My understanding is that less parents/people are choosing surgery. What does the church do if no surgery has taken place and the person has not declared their gender?
JAHS Posted January 30, 2017 Author Posted January 30, 2017 39 minutes ago, california boy said: My understanding is that less parents/people are choosing surgery. What does the church do if no surgery has taken place and the person has not declared their gender? The church handbook only says, Members who have undergone an elective transsexual operation may not receive the priesthood. I think someone not declaring their gender early in life would be so rare that there really is no policy for what you suggest. Things like that must be handled on a case by case basis. I can't imagine a kid growing up during school age years not having decided on a gender before that; or the parents making a decision for them.
CMZ Posted January 30, 2017 Posted January 30, 2017 2 hours ago, JAHS said: Things like that must be handled on a case by case basis. Probably best. Apparently there have been times in the past where the prophet also got involved: https://ldsgender.wordpress.com/2017/01/28/important-update-on-another-documented-case-of-approved-lds-sex-change/
canard78 Posted January 30, 2017 Posted January 30, 2017 On 28/01/2017 at 7:09 PM, Robert F. Smith said: Yes, and it must always be reckoned that God will be fair in judgment -- taking into consideration the level of difficulty and suffering faced by each human. Any thoughts on why God hasn't offered doctrine or revelation on the "difficulty and suffering" of non-binary people before? Biologically speaking, there will have been non-binary individuals for 1000s of years, but science (and culture) is only just reaching a stage where we're able to understand and acknowledge it. Presumably you'd believe that an omniscient God knew, even if we didn't. Why the silence do you suppose?
CV75 Posted January 30, 2017 Posted January 30, 2017 6 hours ago, canard78 said: Any thoughts on why God hasn't offered doctrine or revelation on the "difficulty and suffering" of non-binary people before? Biologically speaking, there will have been non-binary individuals for 1000s of years, but science (and culture) is only just reaching a stage where we're able to understand and acknowledge it. Presumably you'd believe that an omniscient God knew, even if we didn't. Why the silence do you suppose? There is never silence, because the “light which is in all things, which giveth life to all things, which is the law by which all things are governed” helps any individual who needs it. He “hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us.” His light persists from before and in this life into the next. People have always had the means to have peace of mind given the light they have chosen to harbor and nurture, even if not in terms of the fulness of the Gospel. After that, any greater “fulness” is revealed by angels or the Holy Ghost for the management of His kingdom on earth through those given the keys to administer the doctrines, covenants and ordinances. This “fulness,” like the light of Christ, also persists from this life and into the next. The Lord decides how much of the "fulness" to send forth to the world in a general sense, because “he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness.”
JAHS Posted January 30, 2017 Author Posted January 30, 2017 24 minutes ago, CV75 said: 7 hours ago, canard78 said: Any thoughts on why God hasn't offered doctrine or revelation on the "difficulty and suffering" of non-binary people before? Biologically speaking, there will have been non-binary individuals for 1000s of years, but science (and culture) is only just reaching a stage where we're able to understand and acknowledge it. Presumably you'd believe that an omniscient God knew, even if we didn't. Why the silence do you suppose? There is never silence, because the “light which is in all things, which giveth life to all things, which is the law by which all things are governed” helps any individual who needs it. He “hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us.” His light persists from before and in this life into the next. People have always had the means to have peace of mind given the light they have chosen to harbor and nurture, even if not in terms of the fulness of the Gospel. After that, any greater “fulness” is revealed by angels or the Holy Ghost for the management of His kingdom on earth through those given the keys to administer the doctrines, covenants and ordinances. This “fulness,” like the light of Christ, also persists from this life and into the next. The Lord decides how much of the "fulness" to send forth to the world in a general sense, because “he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness.” In other words, "Line upon line precept upon precept". Also, God was silent for 1800 years before the right person asked Him for further information about which religion was correct. Sometimes it's waiting for the right time and a matter of "Ask and ye shall receive." Now that we are becoming more aware of the subject, and more people are asking about what can be done about it, our prophets are asking God about it.
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