Non-Binary gender status

[JAHS]

"On Monday, in a Santa Cruz courtroom, Sara Kelly Keenan became the second U.S. citizen—and the first California resident—to legally change her gender from female to "non-binary." Keenan followed in the footsteps of Oregon resident Jamie Shupe, who in June became the first person in the U.S. to successfully petition a court to recognize non-binary as a gender identity.
Keenan was born intersex, with a condition known as Swyer Syndrome that prevents the body from producing sex hormones. When Keenan was a teenager and showed no signs of starting puberty, she was diagnosed and underwent a surgery to remove gonadal tissue—a process that she said was not fully revealed to her by her parents or doctors. Like most parents of babies born intersex, Keenan's mother and father chose her gender without consulting her in the process. After living her entire life as a woman, Keenan visited an endocrinologist seven years ago who confirmed her suspicions that she was born intersex."

Californian Becomes Second US Citizen Granted ‘Non-Binary’ Gender Status

So now people can claim a third gender on their driver's license as being neither male or female? The bigger question is what are we to think of these people who are born intersex when our Proclamation on the Family tells us that  "Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose."  Were they also intersex in the pre-mortal world? 

[CV75]

12 minutes ago, JAHS said:

"On Monday, in a Santa Cruz courtroom, Sara Kelly Keenan became the second U.S. citizen—and the first California resident—to legally change her gender from female to "non-binary." Keenan followed in the footsteps of Oregon resident Jamie Shupe, who in June became the first person in the U.S. to successfully petition a court to recognize non-binary as a gender identity.
Keenan was born intersex, with a condition known as Swyer Syndrome that prevents the body from producing sex hormones. When Keenan was a teenager and showed no signs of starting puberty, she was diagnosed and underwent a surgery to remove gonadal tissue—a process that she said was not fully revealed to her by her parents or doctors. Like most parents of babies born intersex, Keenan's mother and father chose her gender without consulting her in the process. After living her entire life as a woman, Keenan visited an endocrinologist seven years ago who confirmed her suspicions that she was born intersex."

Californian Becomes Second US Citizen Granted ‘Non-Binary’ Gender Status

So now people can claim a third gender on their driver's license as being neither male or female? The bigger question is what are we to think of these people who are born intersex when our Proclamation on the Family tells us that  "Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose."  Were they also intersex in the pre-mortal world? 

I do not believe that intersex individuals were also intersex in the premortal world. If mortal anatomy does not fit the typical definition(s) for male and female, that is a mortal issue with a variety of complex causes. And I suppose there are many ways God can make a male or female body match the gender of a spirit child regardless of what the genetics might dictate (women having Y genes and androgen insensitivity for example). Sometimes a person or their parents take these matters into their own hands and that is between them and the Lord. There is a Church policy on sex-change surgery but as with all Church policies, it has to be administered with keys and Spirit.

[Duncan]

This sounds like non elective surgery and only real hardliner leaders would do anything disciplinary about it, which they shouldn't IMO

[JAHS]

23 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I do not believe that intersex individuals were also intersex in the premortal world. If mortal anatomy does not fit the typical definition(s) for male and female, that is a mortal issue with a variety of complex causes. And I suppose there are many ways God can make a male or female body match the gender of a spirit child regardless of what the genetics might dictate (women having Y genes and androgen insensitivity for example). Sometimes a person or their parents take these matters into their own hands and that is between them and the Lord. There is a Church policy on sex-change surgery but as with all Church policies, it has to be administered with keys and Spirit.

So are you saying that ultimately God knows which gender they were in the pre-mortal world and which one they were supposed to be in this life, but something went wrong in the womb? And that He can make them what they were supposed to be in the resurrection? Sure makes for a confusing life while on earth.

[CV75]

41 minutes ago, JAHS said:

So are you saying that ultimately God knows which gender they were in the pre-mortal world and which one they were supposed to be in this life, but something went wrong in the womb? And that He can make them what they were supposed to be in the resurrection? Sure makes for a confusing life while on earth.

Yes, life is sure confusing. And things sure do go wrong in the womb.

I think God knows what gender His children are as spirits. "Man is spirit" with eternal characteristics like gender, and not element; element (the body) is element. The spirit and the body are meant to be inseparably connected in the resurrection, with the spirit quickening (defining) the body (per D&C 88), but not so much in this life. As far as what each person’s gender is supposed to be in this life, I think that is God’s will and not so much determined by genetics or news articles.  I believe God can make a mortal woman out of element with male chromosomes (it could be said He did that with Eve!). I believe God can inspire parents on how to raise their children and make life-altering decisions for them, or inspire adults on how to manage their challenges in this area. And then again He may not always intervene, and His children may not always let Him help. But in the resurrection, I believe we will have bodies of physical element that look like what we were shown they would look like, defined by our spirits which possess the eternal gender characteristic.

Edited January 27, 2017 by CV75

[JAHS]

22 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Yes, life is sure confusing. And things sure do go wrong in the womb.

I think God knows what gender His children are as spirits. "Man is spirit" with eternal characteristics like gender, and not element; element (the body) is element. The spirit and the body are meant to be inseparably connected in the resurrection, with the spirit quickening (defining) the body (per D&C 88), but not so much in this life. As far as what each person’s gender is supposed to be in this life, I think that is God’s will and not so much determined by genetics or news articles.  I believe God can make a mortal woman out of element with male chromosomes (it could be said He did that with Eve!). I believe God can inspire parents on how to raise their children and make life-altering decisions for them, or inspire adults on how to manage their challenges in this area. And then again He may not always intervene, and His children may not always let Him help. But in the resurrection, I believe we will have bodies of physical element that look like what we were shown they would look like, defined by our spirits which possess the eternal gender characteristic.

Sounds like reasonable thinking. But how can such people claiming no gender be members of the church in this life? If they claim no gender can they be given the priesthood? Can they get married in the temple? If this life is the time to prepare to meet God what good is this life if they are going to have to wait for the resurrection anyway to find out what gender they are? I suppose they can prove themselves in other ways, but there isn't much chance for progression in this life.

[Jeanne]

This is so weird..but it seems like those who are born this way...seem to know who they are than most of us do.  I am sure that outside the church...they will find their place.  They just need to find our understanding.

Quote

 

 

[CV75]

23 minutes ago, JAHS said:

Sounds like reasonable thinking. But how can such people claiming no gender be members of the church in this life? If they claim no gender can they be given the priesthood? Can they get married in the temple? If this life is the time to prepare to meet God what good is this life if they are going to have to wait for the resurrection anyway to find out what gender they are? I suppose they can prove themselves in other ways, but there isn't much chance for progression in this life.

I would say they prove themselves in this life to the best their circumstances allow. I think membership (covenant-keeping) can be accomplished despite gender identity issues. The older man who baptized me and who was a significant influence in fellowshipping me as a new member never married, and eventually told me he was a woman in man’s body. The three years I associated closely with him (I was in college and moved on afterward), I never heard a complaint from him. To my understanding he remained a faithful and active member of the Church until he died a few years ago.

Now he obviously claimed a gender, and his body showed a gender, but I think people who have no sense of gender or identify as mixed gender or intersex are in a similar situation. They can navigate the questions of priesthood advancement, ordinances and marriage just as ably as any adult. The Lord has not left them alone, whether by the light of Christ as non-members or by the Gift of the Holy Ghost and priesthood servants with keys as members.

[JAHS]

20 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

 

This is so weird..but it seems like those who are born this way...seem to know who they are than most of us do.

 

Could be because since they feel no sense of being a certain gender they simply don't think about it and are spared the complications of being a certain gender and can just concentrate on being themselves. 

[bluebell]

I looked up the syndrome because i had never heard of it before.  People who have it have male DNA (XY chromosomes) but have female anatomy and sex organs (except for ovaries).  Some are capable of carrying and birthing a child from a donated egg.

[Robert F. Smith]

9 hours ago, JAHS said:

..................................................................

So now people can claim a third gender on their driver's license as being neither male or female? The bigger question is what are we to think of these people who are born intersex when our Proclamation on the Family tells us that  "Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose."  Were they also intersex in the pre-mortal world? 

There is nothing new about some children being born with physical characteristics of both genders, and have long been termed hermaphroditic or androgynous.  Some plants and insects are actually normally reproduced in that fashion, but it is a genetic error or other problem in utero in humans, where it is quite rare.  Gender is in any case something which can be defined along a spectrum of hormonal and physical attributes.

They were not androgynous in their pre-mortal existence, nor will they be so after.  Just another human challenge to deal with while on Earth.

[canard78]

13 hours ago, CV75 said:

I would say they prove themselves in this life to the best their circumstances allow. I think membership (covenant-keeping) can be accomplished despite gender identity issues. The older man who baptized me and who was a significant influence in fellowshipping me as a new member never married, and eventually told me he was a woman in man’s body. The three years I associated closely with him (I was in college and moved on afterward), I never heard a complaint from him. To my understanding he remained a faithful and active member of the Church until he died a few years ago.

 

Now he obviously claimed a gender, and his body showed a gender, but I think people who have no sense of gender or identify as mixed gender or intersex are in a similar situation. They can navigate the questions of priesthood advancement, ordinances and marriage just as ably as any adult. The Lord has not left them alone, whether by the light of Christ as non-members or by the Gift of the Holy Ghost and priesthood servants with keys as members.

I think you've illustrated really well here how most Mormons like their non-cis and non-straight members to behave. You praise him for keeping quiet.

I get it. Mormonism and its view on gender and sexuality was developed in a culture when understanding of genetics, gender and sexuality was still based more on religion than science. 

As time passes, it's going to get more and more difficult to discriminate in the way Mormonism does, based on its outdated belief system. 

[CV75]

1 hour ago, canard78 said:

I think you've illustrated really well here how most Mormons like their non-cis and non-straight members to behave. You praise him for keeping quiet.

I get it. Mormonism and its view on gender and sexuality was developed in a culture when understanding of genetics, gender and sexuality was still based more on religion than science. 

As time passes, it's going to get more and more difficult to discriminate in the way Mormonism does, based on its outdated belief system. 

He did not keep quiet. He plainly told me. He plainly told others. I stated that he did not COMPLAIN. He acted like a responsible adult. He acted like a spiritual, religious person. In the 1970s.

I use “he” because he chose to outwardly identify by his physical appearance which represented 90+% of his day-to-day interpersonal interactions. How many people do you have interpersonal intimate relationships and transactions with each day? I bet not nearly as much as you might like to represent.

Lots of people don’t COMPLAIN. They leave a beautiful legacy. That is what merits praise.

Your post on the other hand smacks of COMPLAINING.

[thesometimesaint]

God takes EVERYTHING into consideration. We don't.

[JAHS]

15 hours ago, CV75 said:

Now he obviously claimed a gender, and his body showed a gender, but I think people who have no sense of gender or identify as mixed gender or intersex are in a similar situation.

I am guessing that most if not all such people need to claim and act as a certain gender just to get through life. If they didn't, which public restroom do they use? Which locker room do they use? What kind of swimsuit do they wear? Their outward appearance would determine which they would choose. Whatever the case I am sure God would not fault them for their condition and would judge them more on the content of their character rather than on their lack of sexual identification.

[canard78]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

He did not keep quiet. He plainly told me. He plainly told others. I stated that he did not COMPLAIN. He acted like a responsible adult. He acted like a spiritual, religious person. In the 1970s.

I use “he” because he chose to outwardly identify by his physical appearance which represented 90+% of his day-to-day interpersonal interactions. How many people do you have interpersonal intimate relationships and transactions with each day? I bet not nearly as much as you might like to represent.

Lots of people don’t COMPLAIN. They leave a beautiful legacy. That is what merits praise.

Your post on the other hand smacks of COMPLAINING.

I absolutely am complaining. I'm complaining about the fact that they way you like your non-cis/non-straight members is when they don't complain. I suppose that makes it easier for you to ignore the discrimination of your church against them. When people do complain at the discrimination against them it means you are forced to confront and rationalise the issue in a way you don't need to when they accept the discrimination. 

[thesometimesaint]

I guess we could make it a law that such people keep a birth certificate with them at all times, and provide visual proof of sex when asked.

 

[Thinking]

8 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Just another human challenge to deal with while on Earth.

Says the man who doesn't have to deal with it.

[CV75]

38 minutes ago, JAHS said:

I am guessing that most if not all such people need to claim and act as a certain gender just to get through life. If they didn't, which public restroom do they use? Which locker room do they use? What kind of swimsuit do they wear? Their outward appearance would determine which they would choose. Whatever the case I am sure God would not fault them for their condition and would judge them more on the content of their character rather than on their lack of sexual identification.

I agree.

And don’t we all claim and act as a certain gender in general (or is that genderal?)? Non-verbal is 93% of our communication with each other, but not with God, who judges the heart. I would bet most of our effort is spent on our outward appearance and interactions than on opening our hearts and unfiltered thoughts to the world. Anyone who doesn’t isn’t likely to get along too well with the world at large.

25 minutes ago, canard78 said:

I absolutely am complaining. I'm complaining about the fact that they way you like your non-cis/non-straight members is when they don't complain. I suppose that makes it easier for you to ignore the discrimination of your church against them. When people do complain at the discrimination against them it means you are forced to confront and rationalise the issue in a way you don't need to when they accept the discrimination. 

LOL You’re not complaining, you’re finding fault and using my posts as an excuse, and without really reading them. Criticize what I’ve actually posted rather than imposing your prejudices into it.

[CV75]

3 minutes ago, Thinking said:

Says the man who doesn't have to deal with it.

How do you deal with it?

[Robert F. Smith]

16 minutes ago, Thinking said:

Says the man who doesn't have to deal with it.

What I said in context was simply true, and all of us have challenges of some sort.  Not all those challenges are equally daunting.

Quote

Robert F. Smith said:

There is nothing new about some children being born with physical characteristics of both genders, and have long been termed hermaphroditic or androgynous.  Some plants and insects are actually normally reproduced in that fashion, but it is a genetic error or other problem in utero in humans, where it is quite rare.  Gender is in any case something which can be defined along a spectrum of hormonal and physical attributes.

They were not androgynous in their pre-mortal existence, nor will they be so after.  Just another human challenge to deal with while on Earth.

 

Edited January 28, 2017 by Robert F. Smith

[Thinking]

2 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Not all those challenges are equally daunting.

This I agree with. I didn't think prefacing it with just another was fair.

[JAHS]

30 minutes ago, canard78 said:

I suppose that makes it easier for you to ignore the discrimination of your church against them. When people do complain at the discrimination against them it means you are forced to confront and rationalise the issue in a way you don't need to when they accept the discrimination. 

When people say "the church" discriminates against someone it seems they don't realize that to us it is God that is establishing the doctrines of the church that we must live by. Individual members may not treat people kindly, but they do it out of fear or unrighteousness judgment and they will be judged accordingly. Part of God's doctrines is that we should love everyone and that He loves everyone and is the only one who can judge righteously. A member who has no gender identity, but otherwise lives the doctrines of the church,  will still have a chance to obtain eternal life like anyone else. God is the only one who can correctly discriminate, but He won't do it based on what a member's biological make up is; He will do it based on their level of faithfulness, obedience, and good works. 

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Thinking said:

This I agree with. I didn't think prefacing it with just another was fair.

Yes, and it must always be reckoned that God will be fair in judgment -- taking into consideration the level of difficulty and suffering faced by each human.

[Teancum]

21 hours ago, CV75 said:

I do not believe that intersex individuals were also intersex in the premortal world. If mortal anatomy does not fit the typical definition(s) for male and female, that is a mortal issue with a variety of complex causes. And I suppose there are many ways God can make a male or female body match the gender of a spirit child regardless of what the genetics might dictate (women having Y genes and androgen insensitivity for example). Sometimes a person or their parents take these matters into their own hands and that is between them and the Lord. There is a Church policy on sex-change surgery but as with all Church policies, it has to be administered with keys and Spirit.

So you think God would send someone to this earth that was not intersex in the pre earth life but is in this life?  To what end?