Crushed China Temple story

[Duncan]

I was reading a talk from 1976 and it mentioned the story about the women in Kirtland that crushed their china tableware to make the Temple be all sparklie. Then I recalled that that never actually happened. Does anybody know the origin of the story and why it isn't true?

[Okrahomer]

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

I was reading a talk from 1976 and it mentioned the story about the women in Kirtland that crushed their china tableware to make the Temple be all sparklie. Then I recalled that that never actually happened. Does anybody know the origin of the story and why it isn't true?

This article and this one provide some of the answers:

"Craig K. Manscill, associate professor of Church History and Doctrine at BYU wrote the following in “Artemus Millet: Builder of the Kingdom“:

"Much has been said concerning the exterior stucco of the Kirtland Temple. The common story is that the women of Kirtland donated their fine china to be crushed and mixed in with the stucco, thereby adding a shimmering surface. That glass was put into the plaster is true, yet there are no records that tell of any fine china. Artemus’s journal and other contemporary accounts use the phrase “old glass and crockery.” His son recalled, “Artemus sent men and boys to the different towns and places to gather old crockery and glass to put in the cement.” Stories about fine china being mixed in the Kirtland Temple stucco do not appear on the historical record until 1940—over a hundred years after the dedication of the temple.(Pg. 64)"

 

[JLHPROF]

This is still a popular story.
I think whether it is fine china or old crockery is largely irrelevant.  Either way the saints provided glassware to mix into the stucco.

A mere 4 years ago in the Friend.
https://www.lds.org/friend/2013/05/shining-walls?lang=eng
 

 

Quote

 

“I found one!” Elmeda called as she held up a piece of broken glass. It caught the sunlight and cast patterns on the melting snow. “Look how it shines!”

“It will make our temple shine too,” her older brother Briant said, tugging on her braid. “Now see what else you can find!”

It was 1836, and the Saints in Kirtland were building a temple. Father split wood for roof shingles while Mother cooked meals for the workers. Elmeda loved seeing the temple’s tall walls and red roof standing above the trees.

But the temple wasn’t finished yet. Brother Millet, a stone mason, had invented a new type of plaster to cover the walls. Elmeda remembered when Father told her about it.

“This won’t be ordinary plaster,” he had said as he pulled her onto his knee. “Brother Millet wants to put bits of broken glass and pottery in the plaster to make our temple shine.”

“Will we have to break your wedding dishes?” Elmeda had asked Mother. Elmeda’s family had brought those dishes all the way from New York after joining the Church.

Mother laughed. “No, darling. Brother Millet only needs broken pottery to make the plaster. Just look outside!”

“The garbage pile!” Elmeda said. Every household had a small garbage pile in the yard. That’s where people threw away old, broken items—including bits of pottery and glass.

“We will need everyone’s help,” her father had continued. “Briant, Brother Millet needs boys to tend fires to warm the plaster. Elmeda, we need children to gather old crockery and glass for the plaster. Can you do that?”

“Yes,” Elmeda had whispered. She was only six, but she wanted to help build the temple!

So here she was, holding a piece of glass to catch the sunlight. She was glad the snow had melted this morning so she could search their yard! She dropped the piece of glass in her pile and bent down to gather another.

This piece was half buried in mud. She gently dug around the pottery shard and pried it loose. It glittered in her palm. Elmeda smiled. She held another piece for the temple walls.

Briant knelt and admired her find. “Nice work, Elmeda,” he said. “We’ll have our temple soon!”

Briant was right. The Kirtland Temple was dedicated that spring. After the dedication, Elmeda lined up with the other children and marched to the temple. Her braids swung from side to side as she craned her neck to see the shining walls. She was glad that she had helped build the house of the Lord.

The Truth About the Walls

Elmeda Stringham was a real pioneer child who helped gather glass and pottery for the temple walls. Later generations looked at the beautiful walls and thought the Saints must have broken their best china to make the temple plaster sparkle. But that was not what really happened.

Church historians visited Kirtland to do archaeology and uncover early Church buildings. In their excavations, they discovered pottery fragments in the Saints’ yards. Their find confirmed the early accounts that Latter-day Saint children gathered the bits of glass that made the temple walls shine, showing that anyone can help in the work of the Lord.

 

 

[Danzo]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

This is still a popular story.
I think whether it is fine china or old crockery is largely irrelevant.  Either way the saints provided glassware to mix into the stucco.

A mere 4 years ago in the Friend.
https://www.lds.org/friend/2013/05/shining-walls?lang=eng
 

 

 

The church is hiding the truth where they are sure no one will look.

[gopher]

I took a rare trip to Utah last summer and visited the Church History Museum where there is an exhibit describing how they gathered china from neighboring cities instead of crushing their own china.

The tour guide also told me that John Taylor's watch wasn't hit by a bullet, but was probably damaged when he fell to the ground.

I hope those calling for more transparency in the Church are happy.  They are making Church history much less interesting. 

[Buckeye]

1 hour ago, gopher said:

I took a rare trip to Utah last summer and visited the Church History Museum where there is an exhibit describing how they gathered china from neighboring cities instead of crushing their own china.

The tour guide also told me that John Taylor's watch wasn't hit by a bullet, but was probably damaged when he fell to the ground.

I hope those calling for more transparency in the Church are happy.  They are making Church history much less interesting. 

What does it mean to "gather china from neighboring cities"? Did we send the Danites out on china-raids?

If the church's purpose was to be interesting, we would replace MoTab with the Trans Siberian Orchestra. And we would bring back the Pentecostal practices of speaking in tongues, etc. Now that would liven up fast & testimony meeting. And it would be a historical lesson as the LDS membership was active in such practices in the early days, particularly Kirtland.

 

Edited January 20, 2017 by Buckeye

[Buckeye]

8 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

This is still a popular story.
I think whether it is fine china or old crockery is largely irrelevant.  Either way the saints provided glassware to mix into the stucco.

A mere 4 years ago in the Friend.
https://www.lds.org/friend/2013/05/shining-walls?lang=eng
 

 

 

Living near Kirtland, I actually have some inside knowledge here. A few decades ago (before I moved here), the RLDS church did major repairs on the Kirtland temple walls. In the process there were a lot of broken pieces of the old exterior thrown away. When LDS members in the area learned of it, some went to the construction site and gathered fragments. So it's not uncommon around here to find members with pieces of temple walls displayed in their homes. The pieces have a greenish hue (I'm not sure if that's original or through age) and they have some sparkle to them (but most likely from glass and not china; at least the few pieces I've seen).

[CV75]

11 hours ago, Duncan said:

I was reading a talk from 1976 and it mentioned the story about the women in Kirtland that crushed their china tableware to make the Temple be all sparklie. Then I recalled that that never actually happened. Does anybody know the origin of the story and why it isn't true?

I think a temple in China would be pretty fine.

[thesometimesaint]

Hong Kong LDS Temple.

SEE https://www.lds.org/church/temples/hong-kong-china?lang=eng

[gopher]

1 hour ago, Buckeye said:

What does it mean to "gather china from neighboring cities"? Did we send the Danites out on china-raids?

If the church's purpose was to be interesting, we would replace MoTab with the Trans Siberian Orchestra. And we would bring back the Pentecostal practices of speaking in tongues, etc. Now that would liven up fast & testimony meeting. And it would be a historical lesson as the LDS membership was active in such practices in the early days, particularly Kirtland.

See, that's how you make Church history more interesting!  (I think the exhibit said church members asked people in the towns to donate or sell them their old china)

We already have a few characters in the ward that liven up fast and testimony meeting.  It's always fun to watch the Bishopric tense up when these members approach the pulpit.

[HappyJackWagon]

3 hours ago, gopher said:

I hope those calling for more transparency in the Church are happy.  They are making Church history much less interesting. 

If the church wants to be more interesting they should start with Gospel Doctrine class.

[Robert F. Smith]

13 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

This is still a popular story.
I think whether it is fine china or old crockery is largely irrelevant.  Either way the saints provided glassware to mix into the stucco.

A mere 4 years ago in the Friend.
https://www.lds.org/friend/2013/05/shining-walls?lang=eng
 

Quote

The Truth About the Walls

Elmeda Stringham was a real pioneer child who helped gather glass and pottery for the temple walls. Later generations looked at the beautiful walls and thought the Saints must have broken their best china to make the temple plaster sparkle. But that was not what really happened.

Church historians visited Kirtland to do archaeology and uncover early Church buildings. In their excavations, they discovered pottery fragments in the Saints’ yards. Their find confirmed the early accounts that Latter-day Saint children gathered the bits of glass that made the temple walls shine, showing that anyone can help in the work of the Lord.

 

There is probably a major misunderstanding here about just what "fine china" is:  As every archeologist knows, no matter how beautifully glazed and expensive your "fine china" may be, it will eventually chip, break and get thrown out.  In fact, archeologists depend primarily on the typology of broken pottery in order to provide a secure chronological sequence in their excavations going back thousands of years.  It is quite likely that the "fine china" story is true to the extent that it was broken china which was gathered and utilized, just as LDS archeologists surmised.

Edited January 20, 2017 by Robert F. Smith

[cinepro]

6 hours ago, gopher said:

I took a rare trip to Utah last summer and visited the Church History Museum where there is an exhibit describing how they gathered china from neighboring cities instead of crushing their own china.

The tour guide also told me that John Taylor's watch wasn't hit by a bullet, but was probably damaged when he fell to the ground.

I hope those calling for more transparency in the Church are happy.  They are making Church history much less interesting. 

John Taylor probably fell against the windows sill to break the watch, not the ground.  The cover-up continues...

[Buckeye]

18 minutes ago, cinepro said:

John Taylor probably fell against the windows sill to break the watch, not the ground.  The cover-up continues...

Actually, the watch broke because it was struck by lightning ... at precisely the same moment that the DeLorean hit 88 mph, carrying Joseph and Hyrum to the year 2044 when the second coming will happen.  Now that's the kind of teaching that will make gospel doctrine more interesting. 

Edited January 20, 2017 by Buckeye

[The Nehor]

7 hours ago, Buckeye said:

What does it mean to "gather china from neighboring cities"? Did we send the Danites out on china-raids?

That op is still classified. Do not refer to it again. We know where you live....

[Buckeye]

8 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

That op is still classified. Do not refer to it again. We know where you live....

Yeah, but I don't have china. And if I did, it would never survive my house. Heck, even Ikea plastic plates don't last long with my kids. 

[gopher]

All this talk of of Gospel Doctrine not being interesting is making me self-conscious as a former instructor.  I hope my class didn't feel that way

Maybe the Church should create a Pathways degree program for all the Church issues (historical, intellectual, philosophical, etc)  that seem to be popular in online discussions.  I like keeping GD more focused on spiritual instruction which most of the members in my class seemed to prefer.

[Buckeye]

11 minutes ago, gopher said:

All this talk of of Gospel Doctrine not being interesting is making me self-conscious as a former instructor.  I hope my class didn't feel that way

Maybe the Church should create a Pathways degree program for all the Church issues (historical, intellectual, philosophical, etc)  that seem to be popular in online discussions.  I like keeping GD more focused on spiritual instruction which most of the members in my class seemed to prefer.

I'm sure you were a great instructor, gopher. They key is to focus on spiritual instruction and use lots of quotes from Animal House. Those that get the quotes will feel the lesson was interesting. Those who don't were there for spiritual instruction. Everyone wins.

[Johnnie Cake]

Church history is replete with misrepresentations, myths and faith creating exaggerations.  I take as a good sign that many of these myths like the china story, the BY transfiguration and the milk strippings* stories are being set aside or replaced with a more honest version of the story. 

*yes I'm aware of the 1858 Marsh letter

[cinepro]

1 hour ago, gopher said:

All this talk of of Gospel Doctrine not being interesting is making me self-conscious as a former instructor.  I hope my class didn't feel that way

 

If you're still teaching, you have nothing to worry about.

Oh, wait...

[Okrahomer]

32 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Church history is replete with misrepresentations, myths and faith creating exaggerations.  I take as a good sign that many of these myths like the china story, the BY transfiguration and the milk strippings* stories are being set aside or replaced with a more honest version of the story. 

*yes I'm aware of the 1858 Marsh letter

But were you aware of Henry Bigler's journal entry?  (See page 395, footnote 22)

[gopher]

53 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Church history is replete with misrepresentations, myths and faith creating exaggerations.

Isn't history in general replete with misrepresentations, myths and faith creating exaggerations?  We now see Columbus and Thomas Jefferson much differently than when I was in school.

[Johnnie Cake]

5 hours ago, gopher said:

Isn't history in general replete with misrepresentations, myths and faith creating exaggerations?  We now see Columbus and Thomas Jefferson much differently than when I was in school.

Agreed

[Johnnie Cake]

5 hours ago, Okrahomer said:

But were you aware of Henry Bigler's journal entry?  (See page 395, footnote 22)

I don't disregard the milk stripping story. But marsh's apostasy was much more complicated then that event alone. The story told and retold in general conference and in lessons manuals make his apostasy trivial. It was anything but

[Okrahomer]

3 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

I don't disregard the milk stripping story. But marsh's apostasy was much more complicated then that event alone. The story told and retold in general conference and in lessons manuals make his apostasy trivial. It was anything but

I get and appreciate what you're saying.

By the way, in your earlier post you mentioned the "1858 Marsh letter"--you probably meant 1857, right?  His letter to Heber C Kimball is dated May 5th 1857.  It's in that letter that he speaks about his "reconciliation" with George W. Harris--the husband of Lucinda--the very person on the other end of the milk strippings controversy (see pages 396-398 of the BYU Studies article I linked earlier.)  Even though the complexity of his apostasy can be overly-simplified in the telling of the strippings story; it's interesting that Brother Marsh himself regarded this particular reconciliation important enough to mention specifically.

Anyway, I apologize for derailing.