etz Posted January 16, 2017 Author Posted January 16, 2017 And at this point someone might claim that I am "proselytizing." Yet consider carefully the admission you make when you accuse me thus - you are implicitly saying that the sayings, teachings, and commandments of Christ are not part of your religion - not part of Mormonism - not part of your faith.
Sine Saw Square Posted January 16, 2017 Posted January 16, 2017 Why don't the 12 apostles and the prophet live or admonish members to live the commandments in the way you understand them?
etz Posted January 16, 2017 Author Posted January 16, 2017 12 minutes ago, Sine Saw Square said: Why don't the 12 apostles and the prophet live or admonish members to live the commandments in the way you understand them? That is between them and the Lord. The Lord commanded the original 12 to do exactly that. Quote Matthew 12 19 ¶Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
etz Posted January 16, 2017 Author Posted January 16, 2017 All we were asked to do was keep his commandments. That's all we are here to see - if we will keep his commandments: all of them. Abraham 3:25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them[.]
The Nehor Posted January 16, 2017 Posted January 16, 2017 (edited) 11 hours ago, etz said: You people asked me questions and I answered. I did not volunteer information about myself, nor boast of my righteousness. My observance of the commandments of the Lord is irrelevant to whether they are the Lord's commandments or not. Yes, God endorses this use of my time, as I just cited D&C 88 to that effect in response to your earlier inquiry. I would suggest trying an experiment upon the word of God - why not trying being a crazy contrarian religious nut who takes the Lord at his word, and see what happens? I am a crazy contrarian religious nut. I just have the advantage of God directly directing me in my contrarian nuttiness. You are obsessed with strict interpretations of specific words and a dogmatic and forced reading. The word killeth...... Edited January 16, 2017 by The Nehor
pogi Posted January 16, 2017 Posted January 16, 2017 5 minutes ago, etz said: That's all we are here to see - if we will keep his commandments: all of them. etz, even you make exceptions to the commandments based on your personal interpretation of scripture. You own a car, a house, a fridge, you keep some food stocked. You justify breaking these commandments because you have a family, but I don’t remember seeing the wife and kids clause in the sermon on the mount. I don’t recall the Lord listing exceptions to perfect obedience. You live in violation to the law as written. Unlike the lilies of the field, you toil and labor for your livelihood. You do not forgive your employer their debts to you for your labor. It does not say to forgive all your debts, except for your employers debts to you (You did NOT address this point in your previous response as you claimed). My only point here is that even etz cannot avoid personal interpretation of scripture. The only way that you can claim to be perfectly obedient to these commands is through making exceptions which are not written in the law.
etz Posted January 16, 2017 Author Posted January 16, 2017 (edited) etz, even you make exceptions to the commandments based on your personal interpretation of scripture. You own a car, a house, a fridge, you keep some food stocked. You justify breaking these commandments because you have a family, but I don’t remember seeing the wife and kids clause in the sermon on the mount. I don’t recall the Lord listing exceptions to perfect obedience. You live in violation to the law as written. I will choose to believe that you offer this as a well-meaning reproof and rejoinder to me to keep the commandments of the Lord with diligence, rather than responding to what would otherwise seem to be a clear attempt to deploy the argumentum ad hominem: tu quoque. Quote D&C 83 2 Women have claim on their husbands for their maintenance, until their husbands are taken; and if they are not found transgressors they shall have fellowship in the church. 4 All children have claim upon their parents for their maintenance until they are of age. Unlike the lilies of the field, you toil and labor for your livelihood. You do not forgive your employer their debts to you for your labor. It does not say to forgive all your debts, except for your employers debts to you (You did NOT address this point in your previous response as you claimed). There was no question to respond to. I have received commandment concerning my employment, and as you ought to know from the Book of Mormon, priests are to labor with their own hands for their support and not to rely upon the church for their sustenance. I am not required to tell my employer to waive my paycheck. I do, however, not check on the pay and forgive their lapses (if there are any, which I don't know, because I don't check). My only point here is that even etz cannot avoid personal interpretation of scripture. The only way that you can claim to be perfectly obedient to these commands is through making exceptions which are not written in the law. It becomes very difficult to respond to you as though you meant well when you admit you are deploying the argumentum ad hominem: tu quoque in order to make it appear that I am a transgressor. Edited January 16, 2017 by etz
etz Posted January 16, 2017 Author Posted January 16, 2017 (edited) In a letter attributed to Joseph Smith, we find the following. Quote Happiness is the object and design of our existence; and will be the end thereof, if we pursue the path that leads to it; and this path is virtue, uprightness, faithfulness, holiness, and keeping all the commandments of God. But we cannot keep all the commandments without first knowing them, and we cannot expect to know all, or more than we now know unless we comply with or keep those we have already received. In a lecture from Joseph Smith, we find the following. Quote If a man gets a fullness of the priesthood of God he has to get it in the same way that Jesus Christ obtained it, and that was by keeping all the commandments and obeying all the ordinances of the house of the Lord. In a lecture from Joseph Smith, we find the following. Quote Any many may believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and be happy in that belief, and yet not obey his commandments, and at last be cut down for disobedience to the Lord's righteous requirements. In a lecture from Joseph Smith, we find the following. Quote So long as a man will not give heed to the commandments, he must abide without salvation. In a letter from Joseph Smith, we find the following. Quote We would say to the brethren, seek to know God in your closets, call upon him in the fields. Follow the directions of the Book of Mormon, and pray over, and for your families, your cattle, your flocks, your herds, your corn, and all things that you possess; ask the blessing of God upon all your labors, and everything that you engage in. Be virtuous and pure; be men of integrity and truth; keep the commandments of God; and then you will be able more perfectly to understand the difference between right and wrong--between the things of God and the things of men; and your path will be like that of the just, which shineth brighter and brighter unto the perfect day. And so on. Quote We know not what we shall be called to pass through before Zion is delivered and established; therefore, we have great need to live near to God, and always be in strict obedience to all His commandments, that we may have a conscience void of offense toward God and man. Ironically. Quote If the Church knew all the commandments, one-half they would condemn through prejudice and ignorance. And a golden oldie: Quote I * * * spoke to the people, showing them that to get salvation we must not only do some things, but everything which God has commanded. Men may preach and practice everything except those things which God commands us to do, and will be damned at last. We may tithe mint and rue, and all manner of herbs, and still not obey and teach others to obey God in just what He tells us to do. It mattereth not whether the principle is popular or unpopular, I will always maintain a true principle, even if I stand alone in it. (Feb. 21, 1844.) DHC 6:223. Edited January 16, 2017 by etz
JLHPROF Posted January 16, 2017 Posted January 16, 2017 12 hours ago, etz said: If you acknowledge the commandments of the Lord as contained in the Holy Scriptures, you are likewise on the hook to obey them inasmuch as you say you have a covenant with the Lord to obey his commandments. If you are the Lord's disciple, you will likewise reject teachings which diverge from his commandments. Again, the problem is in your interpretation of the commandments. Not even all Christian religions and followers of Christ agree on what his commandments are or what they mean. What you may see as diverging from his commandments may in point of fact be completely in line with his commandments. 1
etz Posted January 16, 2017 Author Posted January 16, 2017 (edited) 3 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Again, the problem is in your interpretation of the commandments. Not even all Christian religions and followers of Christ agree on what his commandments are or what they mean. What you may see as diverging from his commandments may in point of fact be completely in line with his commandments. Wasn't clarifying that really the point of the so-called "Restoration of the Gospel?" But now you tell me you're no better off than apostate Christianity. That's an interesting admission. Edited January 16, 2017 by etz
JLHPROF Posted January 16, 2017 Posted January 16, 2017 3 minutes ago, etz said: In a lecture from Joseph Smith, we find the following. So long as a man will not give heed to the commandments, he must abide without salvation. Yet the only commandments required for salvation in God's kingdom are faith, repentance, and baptism. All else applies to what role we will play in that kingdom. Quote In a lecture from Joseph Smith, we find the following. If a man gets a fullness of the priesthood of God he has to get it in the same way that Jesus Christ obtained it, and that was by keeping all the commandments and obeying all the ordinances of the house of the Lord. Which has specific reference to an ordinance the existence of which is barely acknowledged.
JLHPROF Posted January 16, 2017 Posted January 16, 2017 Just now, etz said: Wasn't clarifying that point really the point of the so-called "Restoration of the Gospel?" But now you tell me you're no better off than apostate Christianity. That's an interesting admission. Not I, but your sola scriptura view places you completely in that category.
etz Posted January 16, 2017 Author Posted January 16, 2017 Quote D&C 58 26 For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward. 27 Verily I say, men should be anxiously engaged in a good cause, and do many things of their own free will, and bring to pass much righteousness; 28 For the power is in them, wherein they are agents unto themselves. And inasmuch as men do good they shall in nowise lose their reward. 29 But he that doeth not anything until he is commanded, and receiveth a commandment with doubtful heart, and keepeth it with slothfulness, the same is damned. 30 Who am I that made man, saith the Lord, that will hold him guiltless that obeys not my commandments? 31 Who am I, saith the Lord, that have promised and have not fulfilled? 32 I command and men obey not; I revoke and they receive not the blessing. 33 Then they say in their hearts: This is not the work of the Lord, for his promises are not fulfilled. But wo unto such, for their reward lurketh beneath, and not from above.
Calm Posted January 16, 2017 Posted January 16, 2017 12 hours ago, etz said: That was the point of referring you to Webster's 1828 dictionary definition of witness, which lacks any reference to oaths. But oaths references witness iirc.
etz Posted January 16, 2017 Author Posted January 16, 2017 3 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Yet the only commandments required for salvation in God's kingdom are faith, repentance, and baptism. All else applies to what role we will play in that kingdom. Hear again the word of the Lord, according to the JST. Matt 5:21 Whosoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments and shall teach men so to do, he shall in no wise be saved in the kingdom of heaven; but whosoever shall do and teach these commandments of the law until it be fulfilled, the same shall be called great and shall be saved in the kingdom of heaven. Matt 5:22 For I say unto you, except your righteousness shall exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Calm Posted January 16, 2017 Posted January 16, 2017 11 hours ago, Calm said: If you have so poorly understood me, why should I assume you understand the scriptures better? Or why should I believe I understand you and will benefit through my interpretation of your interpretation?
etz Posted January 16, 2017 Author Posted January 16, 2017 Just now, Calm said: Or why should I believe I understand you and will benefit through my interpretation of your interpretation? That is a value proposition you shall necessarily answer for yourself.
etz Posted January 16, 2017 Author Posted January 16, 2017 Your baptism shall not save you, JLHPROF, inasmuch as you keep not his commandments.
Calm Posted January 16, 2017 Posted January 16, 2017 I prefer to let the Spirit tell me what Jesus' words are. I find your lack of concern about actually helping people live the gospel not showing any evidence of the second greatest commandment. If this is how you interpret how to live the commandments, I don't see value in your interpretation. 1
etz Posted January 16, 2017 Author Posted January 16, 2017 Just now, Calm said: I prefer to let the Spirit tell me what Jesus' words are. I find your lack of concern about actually helping people live the gospel not showing any evidence of the second greatest commandment. If this is how you interpret how to live the commandments, I don't see value in your interpretation. Is unbelief a fruit of the Spirit?
etz Posted January 16, 2017 Author Posted January 16, 2017 Objection: The commandments cannot be understood! Response: Here they are in modern English. Objection: We don't trust you and therefore reject your rendition of the commandments! Response: That's on you. Objection: You don't care that we don't trust you, therefore we may dismiss what you say! Response: That's on you. Objection: What you say isn't actionable! Response: There is nothing more to the commandment to give to every man that asks other than giving to every man that asks. Objection: I don't find value in your words. Response: That's on you. Objection: You're a hypocrite, even if I can't prove it! Response: If you acknowledge the scriptures as the word of God, my hypocrisy, or lack thereof, is irrelevant since the message has been delivered.
JLHPROF Posted January 16, 2017 Posted January 16, 2017 14 minutes ago, etz said: Your baptism shall not save you, JLHPROF, inasmuch as you keep not his commandments. It is amazing how little you understand the commandments you are fighting so hard to promote. Mark 16: 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Was Christ lying?
bluebell Posted January 16, 2017 Posted January 16, 2017 17 hours ago, etz said: Doctrine and Covenants 20 30 And we know that justification through the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is just and true; 31 And we know also, that sanctification through the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is just and true, to all those who love and serve God with all their mights, minds, and strength. 32 But there is a possibility that man may fall from graceand depart from the living God; 33 Therefore let the church take heed and pray always, lest they fall into temptation; 34 Yea, and even let those who are sanctified take heed also. That suffices to overturn that claim. No, it really doesn't. Even Christ did not claim perfection until after His resurrection.
etz Posted January 16, 2017 Author Posted January 16, 2017 (edited) 4 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: It is amazing how little you understand the commandments you are fighting so hard to promote. Mark 16: 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Was Christ lying? No. Men falsely witness when they do not believe and are baptized. We call these characters "hypocrites," meaning actors, pretenders. This is the class of individual Nephi, through citing Isaiah, foretells shall be in the latter-days. Quote 1 Nephi 20 1 Hearken and hear this, O house of Jacob, who are called by the name of Israel, and are come forth out of the waters of Judah, or out of the waters of baptism, who swear by the name of the Lord, and make mention of the God of Israel, yet they swear not in truth nor in righteousness. 2 Nevertheless, they call themselves of the holy city, but they do not stay themselves upon the God of Israel, who is the Lord of Hosts; yea, the Lord of Hosts is his name. We can tell they do not believe because they do not obey once they are baptized. Edited January 16, 2017 by etz
etz Posted January 16, 2017 Author Posted January 16, 2017 (edited) 4 minutes ago, bluebell said: No, it really doesn't. Even Christ did not claim perfection until after His resurrection. You may peruse the thread for examples of perfect people found in the scriptures, such as Seth, the son of Adam, and also you may look up Job in the scriptures. Edited January 16, 2017 by etz
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