JLHPROF Posted January 16, 2017 Posted January 16, 2017 39 minutes ago, The Nehor said: It is proposed that we stop feeding the troll and ignore Etz's inflammatory statements. All in favor please manifest it. Yeah, but this troll is special. It's not often we get one with such absolute tunnel vision.
JLHPROF Posted January 16, 2017 Posted January 16, 2017 3 minutes ago, etz said: And you revile me. Actually we don't even know you. We revile false doctrine and incorrect principle.
etz Posted January 16, 2017 Author Posted January 16, 2017 2 minutes ago, pogi said: ...still waiting The answer is: if you are the Lord's disciple, then keep his commandments. If you are not, then, of course, you will not keep his commandments. I view it as wise to obey God. You are free to obey or not as you choose. So the question to you is: did the Lord command it? And do you intend to obey him? You don't need to answer to me. I'm not your judge.
etz Posted January 16, 2017 Author Posted January 16, 2017 3 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Actually we don't even know you. We revile false doctrine and incorrect principle. It must be false, because, of course, you disagree with it. Even though it comes from the Lord, as you acknowledge.
etz Posted January 16, 2017 Author Posted January 16, 2017 And if you shall say it does not come from the Lord, then explain in your own words what, exactly, he did say.
etz Posted January 16, 2017 Author Posted January 16, 2017 (edited) Here's how that will look. "No, the Lord did not command us to give to every man that asks (Luke 6:30)! He commanded us to _____." Edited January 16, 2017 by etz
etz Posted January 16, 2017 Author Posted January 16, 2017 And, again, it will look like this: "No, the Lord did not command us to give to him that asketh (3 Nephi 12:42) nor make that a condition of salvation (3 Nephi 15:1)! All we really have to do is _____!"
etz Posted January 16, 2017 Author Posted January 16, 2017 And I would be very careful in doing that. JST Matt 5:21 Whosoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments and shall teach men so to do, he shall in no wise be saved in the kingdom of heaven; but whosoever shall do and teach these commandments of the law until it be fulfilled, the same shall be called great and shall be saved in the kingdom of heaven. Matt 5:22 For I say unto you, except your righteousness shall exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
pogi Posted January 16, 2017 Posted January 16, 2017 9 minutes ago, etz said: The answer is: if you are the Lord's disciple, then keep his commandments. I asked a yes or no question. I have no idea what this has to do with my question. Speak directly and not illusively.
Sine Saw Square Posted January 16, 2017 Posted January 16, 2017 (edited) Quote And now I command you, my servant Joseph, to repent and walk more uprightly before me, and to yield to the persuasions of men no more https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/5.21?lang=eng#20 There are multiple examples in the DC where God calls Joseph to repent AFTER he has already committed to live the commandments. He is imperfect and yet is still the Prophet. How do humans learn and grow? No one decides at one instance to act on a complex series of behaviors and then unerringly executes them for ever. It's called practicing repentance for a reason. As the inimitable Tony Horton of P90x fame admonishes: "Do your best and forget the rest". Edited January 16, 2017 by Sine Saw Square
etz Posted January 16, 2017 Author Posted January 16, 2017 (edited) 1 minute ago, pogi said: I asked a yes or no question. I have no idea what this has to do with my question. Speak directly and not illusively. I am not the Lord; I repeat his commandments and let his nominal disciples choose for themselves whether to obey him or not. He that trusts in the arm of flesh is cursed, as it is written. Edited January 16, 2017 by etz
pogi Posted January 16, 2017 Posted January 16, 2017 3 minutes ago, etz said: I am not the Lord Obviously! 1
pogi Posted January 16, 2017 Posted January 16, 2017 (edited) 10 minutes ago, etz said: I repeat his commandments and let his nominal disciples choose for themselves whether to obey him or not. How should I understand his commands? As written, or under a broader context, as you live it? Edited January 16, 2017 by pogi
JLHPROF Posted January 16, 2017 Posted January 16, 2017 (edited) 17 minutes ago, etz said: It must be false, because, of course, you disagree with it. Even though it comes from the Lord, as you acknowledge. 16 minutes ago, etz said: And if you shall say it does not come from the Lord, then explain in your own words what, exactly, he did say. 15 minutes ago, etz said: Here's how that will look. "No, the Lord did not command us to give to every man that asks (Luke 6:30)! He commanded us to _____." How about the words of scripture? Paying taxes? Mark 12: 17 And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Cæsar the things that are Cæsar’s, and to God the things that are God’s. And they marvelled at him.Working to provide for your family? I Timothy 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.Giving to the poor? Matthew 26:7 There came unto him a woman having an alabaster box of very precious ointment, and poured it on his head, as he sat at meat. 8 But when his disciples saw it, they had indignation, saying, To what purpose is this waste? 9 For this ointment might have been sold for much, and given to the poor. 10 When Jesus understood it, he said unto them, Why trouble ye the woman? for she hath wrought a good work upon me. 11 For ye have the poor always with you; but me ye have not always.Building temples? D&C 124:26 And send ye swift messengers, yea, chosen messengers, and say unto them: Come ye, with all your gold, and your silver, and your precious stones, and with all your antiquities; and with all who have knowledge of antiquities, that will come, may come, and bring the box tree, and the fir tree, and the pine tree, together with all the precious trees of the earth; 27 And with iron, with copper, and with brass, and with zinc, and with all your precious things of the earth; and build a house to my name, for the Most High to dwell therein. So if we are commanded to do all these things with our possessions AND give all our possessions away, how do we determine which commandment takes precedence? It is the viewpoint of a child that takes such a black and white view on a principle and a person of little learning that does not view the gospel in its entirety with all nuance and variety. Joseph Smith also taught "The government of heaven is conducted—by revelation adapted to the circumstance in which the children of the kingdom are placed. Whatever God requires is right, no matter what it is, although we may not see the reason thereof till long after the events transpire". You seem to be of the belief that there can be no variety or adaptation in keeping the commandments, regardless of what God requires. Edited January 16, 2017 by JLHPROF 1
etz Posted January 16, 2017 Author Posted January 16, 2017 3 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: How about the words of scripture? Paying taxes? Mark 12: 17 And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Cæsar the things that are Cæsar’s, and to God the things that are God’s. And they marvelled at him.Working to provide for your family? I Timothy 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.Giving to the poor? Matthew 26:7 There came unto him a woman having an alabaster box of very precious ointment, and poured it on his head, as he sat at meat. 8 But when his disciples saw it, they had indignation, saying, To what purpose is this waste? 9 For this ointment might have been sold for much, and given to the poor. 10 When Jesus understood it, he said unto them, Why trouble ye the woman? for she hath wrought a good work upon me. 11 For ye have the poor always with you; but me ye have not always.Building temples? D&C 124:26 And send ye swift messengers, yea, chosen messengers, and say unto them: Come ye, with all your gold, and your silver, and your precious stones, and with all your antiquities; and with all who have knowledge of antiquities, that will come, may come, and bring the box tree, and the fir tree, and the pine tree, together with all the precious trees of the earth; 27 And with iron, with copper, and with brass, and with zinc, and with all your precious things of the earth; and build a house to my name, for the Most High to dwell therein. So if we are commanded to do all these things with our possessions AND give all our possessions away, how do we determine which commandment takes precedence? 1. Is rendering unto Caesar logically incompatible with giving to every man that asketh? 2. Is providing for the widows - the context of 1 Timothy 5:8 - logically incompatible with giving to every man that asketh? 3. "Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me." 4. That commandment is not to you, and even if it was, would it be logically incompatible with giving to every man that asketh?
etz Posted January 16, 2017 Author Posted January 16, 2017 7 minutes ago, pogi said: How should I understand it? As written, or under a broader context as you live it? "No interpretation at all," said Joseph. If you want to know how the Lord would have you implement his sayings, teachings, and commandments in your life, then why not start doing what you can understand - say, giving to every man that asks - and appeal to him in prayer to explain how you should understand the rest?
pogi Posted January 16, 2017 Posted January 16, 2017 (edited) Might I suggest a little work on this one: "be forthright in our speech rather than speak evasively". Peace out etz! Edited January 16, 2017 by pogi 1
pogi Posted January 16, 2017 Posted January 16, 2017 (edited) 4 minutes ago, etz said: ...and appeal to him in prayer to explain how you should understand the rest? With that we can agree. Peace out! Edited January 16, 2017 by pogi
etz Posted January 16, 2017 Author Posted January 16, 2017 1 Nephi 15 11 Do ye not remember the things which the Lord hath said?—If ye will not harden your hearts, and ask me in faith, believing that ye shall receive, with diligence in keeping my commandments, surely these things shall be made known unto you.
The Nehor Posted January 16, 2017 Posted January 16, 2017 40 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Yeah, but this troll is special. It's not often we get one with such absolute tunnel vision. All right, you can keep him but you have to feed him and clean up after him. 3
Sine Saw Square Posted January 16, 2017 Posted January 16, 2017 O be wise; what can I say more? Done with this thread as it seems rather trollish. 2
etz Posted January 16, 2017 Author Posted January 16, 2017 (edited) As I noted: it's only a call to repentance if you are neither keeping nor teaching the commandments of Christ. That's when the discomfort starts. Christ himself was divisive (Matthew 10:34, John 7:43, &c.). One of the charges the Pharisees made against him was that he was a troll (Luke 23:5). Edited January 16, 2017 by etz
JLHPROF Posted January 16, 2017 Posted January 16, 2017 19 minutes ago, etz said: 1. Is rendering unto Caesar logically incompatible with giving to every man that asketh? 2. Is providing for the widows - the context of 1 Timothy 5:8 - logically incompatible with giving to every man that asketh? 3. "Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me." 4. That commandment is not to you, and even if it was, would it be logically incompatible with giving to every man that asketh? Not necessarily. That is why context and situation matter. I have $100. My family requires $75 of it. I tithe $10 of it. I give $15 of it in taxes. And that's before I even think of donating to building of a temple. If a man or even a friend asketh that $100 of me do I not have to choose which commandment to fulfill? 1
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