bluebell Posted January 16, 2017 Posted January 16, 2017 17 hours ago, etz said: 2 Nephi 9:27 27 But wo unto him that has the law given, yea, that has all the commandments of God, like unto us, and that transgresseth them, and that wasteth the days of his probation, for awful is his state! James 2:10 10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. That suffices to overturn that claim. But let us add Joseph's testimony. I * * * spoke to the people, showing them that to get salvation we must not only do some things, but everything which God has commanded. Men may preach and practice everything except those things which God commands us to do, and will be damned at last. We may tithe mint and rue, and all manner of herbs, and still not obey and teach others to obey God in just what He tells us to do. It mattereth not whether the principle is popular or unpopular, I will always maintain a true principle, even if I stand alone in it. (Feb. 21, 1844.) DHC 6:223. Until you understand the Atonement, you will never understand these verses of scripture. Works is a necessary part of salvation, but it is not the entire part.
bluebell Posted January 16, 2017 Posted January 16, 2017 1 minute ago, etz said: You may peruse the thread for examples of perfect people found in the scriptures, such as Seth, the son of Adam, and also you may look up Job in the scriptures. Those people were not perfect. The only person to ever live who did not need the Atonement was the one who performed the Atonement-Christ.
etz Posted January 16, 2017 Author Posted January 16, 2017 Just now, bluebell said: Until you understand the Atonement, you will never understand these verses of scripture. Works is a necessary part of salvation, but it is not the entire part. As I said: you may of course complain that I am wrong, that my understanding is incorrect, but unless and until you can substantiate it, your claims carry no weight.
etz Posted January 16, 2017 Author Posted January 16, 2017 Just now, bluebell said: Those people were not perfect. The only person to ever live who did not need the Atonement was the one who performed the Atonement-Christ. Then the scriptures are false, on your view, for they say they were indeed perfect. Either the scriptures are therefore incorrect, or you do not understand the scriptures.
bluebell Posted January 16, 2017 Posted January 16, 2017 3 minutes ago, etz said: Then the scriptures are false, on your view, for they say they were indeed perfect. Either the scriptures are therefore incorrect, or you do not understand the scriptures. No, the scriptures don't teach that anyone was perfect. 1
etz Posted January 16, 2017 Author Posted January 16, 2017 Just now, bluebell said: No, the scriptures don't teach that anyone was perfect. Doctrine and Covenants 107:43 43 Because he (Seth) was a perfect man, and his likeness was the express likeness of his father, insomuch that he seemed to be like unto his father in all things, and could be distinguished from him only by his age. Job 1:1 1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil. Job 1:8 8 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? Job 2:3 3 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.
Sine Saw Square Posted January 16, 2017 Posted January 16, 2017 1 hour ago, etz said: That is between them and the Lord. Not just between them and the Lord. Their calling puts it between them and the members of the Church. Is your interpretation of what Christ's commandments are the same that are espoused by the current general authorities? We've been assured that striving to follow the counsel of the current Prophet will keep us in good standing with the Lord. (https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/od/1?lang=eng) Is that not enough? Quote The Lord commanded the original 12 to do exactly that Do you suggest the current leadership isn't?
etz Posted January 16, 2017 Author Posted January 16, 2017 Said Paul: Quote 12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
etz Posted January 16, 2017 Author Posted January 16, 2017 2 minutes ago, Sine Saw Square said: Not just between them and the Lord. Their calling puts it between them and the members of the Church. Is your interpretation of what Christ's commandments are the same that are espoused by the current general authorities? We've been assured that striving to follow the counsel of the current Prophet will keep us in good standing with the Lord. (https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/od/1?lang=eng) Is that not enough? Do you suggest the current leadership isn't? 1. My service to God is between me and God, as the leadership's service to God is between them and God. 2. It's not my business how the current GAs interpret anything: I am a disciple of Christ, not a disciple of the GAs. 3. It is written those that trust in the arm of flesh are cursed. 4. I make no suggestions about the current leadership.
bluebell Posted January 16, 2017 Posted January 16, 2017 5 minutes ago, etz said: Doctrine and Covenants 107:43 43 Because he (Seth) was a perfect man, and his likeness was the express likeness of his father, insomuch that he seemed to be like unto his father in all things, and could be distinguished from him only by his age. Job 1:1 1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil. Job 1:8 8 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? Job 2:3 3 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause. Those instances of the use of the word 'perfect' are more accurately understood as meaning morally pious or morally upstanding. Righteous. The same hebrew word translated in Job as 'perfect' is also translated as 'plain' and 'upright' and 'undefiled' when it's used in other verses in the OT. 1
bluebell Posted January 16, 2017 Posted January 16, 2017 10 minutes ago, etz said: Said Paul: That's another example of a greek word--'teleios'--that has more than one definition. 1
etz Posted January 16, 2017 Author Posted January 16, 2017 2 minutes ago, bluebell said: Those instances of the use of the word 'perfect' are more accurately understood as meaning morally pious or morally upstanding. Righteous. The same hebrew word translated in Job as 'perfect' is also translated as 'plain' and 'upright' and 'undefiled' when it's used in other verses in the OT. Quite.
etz Posted January 16, 2017 Author Posted January 16, 2017 1 minute ago, bluebell said: That's another example of a greek word--'teleios'--that has more than one definition. Quite.
Sine Saw Square Posted January 16, 2017 Posted January 16, 2017 4 minutes ago, etz said: 1. My service to God is between me and God, as the leadership's service to God is between them and God. 2. It's not my business how the current GAs interpret anything: I am a disciple of Christ, not a disciple of the GAs. It sounds like we have common ground! It's not my business how anyone else interprets anything. Our salvation and understanding of what is taught is between us and the Lord. In answer to your original question- I do believe the commandments of Christ. I strive to follow them better via practice and trust in the Lord to salvation. I rejoice that we are fellow travelers on the path to redemption. Godspeed in your efforts to live by the dictates of your conscience.
JLHPROF Posted January 16, 2017 Posted January 16, 2017 27 minutes ago, etz said: No. Men falsely witness when they do not believe and are baptized. We call these characters "hypocrites," meaning actors, pretenders. This is the class of individual Nephi, through citing Isaiah, foretells shall be in the latter-days. We can tell they do not believe because they do not obey once they are baptized. So as long as someone is sincere, according to the words of Christ, all that is needed for salvation in God's kingdom is to repent and be baptized. Got it. 1
etz Posted January 16, 2017 Author Posted January 16, 2017 (edited) 6 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: So as long as someone is sincere, according to the words of Christ, all that is needed for salvation in God's kingdom is to repent and be baptized. Got it. Yes, repent: cast aside all sin and call upon God even until you shall have faith in him and keep all his commandments from thenceforth. After all, we are only baptized because God commands it - if we are sincere. If we are not sincere, then we are baptized for some other reason, such as social pressure, familial expectations, joining the club, etc. Quote Doctrine and Covenants 20:37 37 And again, by way of commandment to the church concerning the manner of baptism—All those who humble themselves before God, and desire to be baptized, and come forth with broken hearts and contrite spirits, and witness before the church that they have truly repented of all their sins, and are willing to take upon them the name of Jesus Christ, having a determination to serve him to the end, and truly manifest by their works that they have received of the Spirit of Christ unto the remission of their sins, shall be received by baptism into his church. That bit about "having a determination to serve him to the end" means "committed to keeping his commandments even unto the end of their lives," pretty much. So, without having repented of all their sins, and without that determination to keep the commandments at all costs, and without having received of the Spirit of Christ unto the remission of their sins, they are baptized unworthily. Edited January 16, 2017 by etz
etz Posted January 16, 2017 Author Posted January 16, 2017 And we can tell they are unworthy because they do not obey once baptized.
Calm Posted January 16, 2017 Posted January 16, 2017 1 hour ago, etz said: Your baptism shall not save you, JLHPROF, inasmuch as you keep not his commandments. Are you judging that JL doesn't keep the commandments or speaking generically explaining the condition attached to baptism?
Calm Posted January 16, 2017 Posted January 16, 2017 1 hour ago, etz said: Is unbelief a fruit of the Spirit? Unbelief in what and by whom?
etz Posted January 16, 2017 Author Posted January 16, 2017 Just now, Calm said: Are you judging that JL doesn't keep the commandments or speaking generically explaining the condition attached to baptism? Judge for yourself my meaning.
etz Posted January 16, 2017 Author Posted January 16, 2017 Just now, Calm said: Unbelief in what and by whom? Judge for yourself my meaning.
Calm Posted January 16, 2017 Posted January 16, 2017 58 minutes ago, etz said: And we can tell they are unworthy because they do not obey once baptized. And you know they don't obey how?
Calm Posted January 16, 2017 Posted January 16, 2017 Just now, etz said: Judge for yourself my meaning. I cannot since English has multiple meanings and you refuse to provide context. How do you expect to teach when leaving off half the lesson.
etz Posted January 16, 2017 Author Posted January 16, 2017 Just now, Calm said: I cannot since English has multiple meanings and you refuse to provide context. How do you expect to teach when leaving off half the lesson. I do not expect to teach hecklers.
etz Posted January 16, 2017 Author Posted January 16, 2017 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Calm said: And you know they don't obey how? By their conduct and speech. Edited January 16, 2017 by etz
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