JLHPROF Posted January 16, 2017 Posted January 16, 2017 8 minutes ago, etz said: So, I ask again, because this goes unanswered: what is the principal objection you people have to actually doing what you said you were going to do - keep Christ's commandments - when you were A) Baptized, B) Partook of the sacrament, and C) Were endowed? And if you have no objection, then why do you contend against me? Who is objecting? And how do you know we aren't keeping Christ's commandments?
etz Posted January 16, 2017 Author Posted January 16, 2017 (edited) 5 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Who is objecting? You can read through the thread and find objections. You may then, when you find them, answer your own question. Edited January 16, 2017 by etz
pogi Posted January 16, 2017 Posted January 16, 2017 1 minute ago, etz said: It means you keep all his commandments - not some, not most, but all. Yes, that is the ultimate goal isn't it? That is where I am headed. Honestly, I don't care what you mean by the word "perfect", I care what Christ means by the word perfect. Your opinion is worth "straw" to me, and is contrary to the official position of the church and is contrary to the way Christ would have used the word, and is contrary to scripture such as 1 John 1:8 and others that you ignore. Your perverted teachings are partly the reason for misguided perfectionism, anxiety, depression, and toxic shame which runs rampant in our Church. It causes many to hide from God in shame, and to feel unworthy of his light and love. It pushes people into the shadows and chains of the adversary. It causes us to doubt our selves and doubt the Lord in our weaknesses, because what you suggest is an impossible and reckless teaching. Such perfectionism is a recipe for disaster. It distorts our perception of God and his light. Perfection is a process. 1
etz Posted January 16, 2017 Author Posted January 16, 2017 (edited) So, let's go over these things again. Quote We are to love God,we are to love our neighbors,we are to make no oaths,we are to not swear that something is true,we are to be forthright in our speech rather than speak evasively,we are to make no preparations for tomorrow,we are to build up no storage of goods nor money nor food nor substance for ourselves,we are to do alms to the poor,we are to give to everyone who asks,we are to forgive every debt owed us,we are to lend to all comers without asking for our stuff back,we are to not ask for our stuff back from those who take it,we are to sell our possessions and distribute the proceeds to the poor,we are to avoid the desire for possessions,we are to refrain from lust,we are to pray always,we are to be merciful,we are to not resist evil,we are to turn the other cheek when struck,we are to comply with those who compel us,we are to concede to our opponents even before they take legal action against us,we are to let those who sue us have what they sue us for,we are to refrain from judging,we are to refrain from condemning,we are to love our enemies,we are to bless those that curse us,we are to do good to those who hate us,we are to pray for those who spitefully exploit these things against us and use us,we are to send back good for evil done to us,we are to forgive every offender even until seventy times seven,we are to not expend effort to preserve our own lives,we are to do every last thing we want done to ourselves to others,we are to wholly walk in these ways as God wholly walks in these ways,we are to both do and teach all these things,andif we do these things we are the church and family of God,andif we do not do these things we are not the church and family of God. Each of these is a modern English rendition of the commandments of the Lord, that he gave with his own mouth in his own person according to the scriptures. Joseph Smith: I * * * spoke to the people, showing them that to get salvation we must not only do some things, but everything which God has commanded. Men may preach and practice everything except those things which God commands us to do, and will be damned at last. We may tithe mint and rue, and all manner of herbs, and still not obey and teach others to obey God in just what He tells us to do. It mattereth not whether the principle is popular or unpopular, I will always maintain a true principle, even if I stand alone in it. (Feb. 21, 1844.) DHC 6:223. Edited January 16, 2017 by etz
etz Posted January 16, 2017 Author Posted January 16, 2017 I will also note this. Quote 1John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another; and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 1John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves; and the truth is not in us. 1John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar; and his word is not in us. The fact that all have necessarily sinned - save Jesus alone - does not imply that all must necessarily keep sinning. Quote 1John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. But if any man sin and repent, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 1John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. 1John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him--if we keep his commandments. 1John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments is a liar; and the truth is not in him. 1John 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected; hereby know we that we are in him. 1John 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. The rest of 1 John is profitably read with respect to perfection and the commandments as well.
Calm Posted January 16, 2017 Posted January 16, 2017 15 minutes ago, etz said: You can read through the thread and find objections. You may then, when you find them, answer your own question. How can someone object, yet there be no argument? 1
Calm Posted January 16, 2017 Posted January 16, 2017 (edited) So etz, just to be clear, how long have you been perfect? Edited January 16, 2017 by Calm 1
etz Posted January 16, 2017 Author Posted January 16, 2017 2 minutes ago, Calm said: How can someone object, yet there be no argument? Do objections logically entail argument? 2 minutes ago, Calm said: So etz, just to be clear, how long have you been perfect? By this implicit tu quoque I see you have not read the thread. Did you apply the same exacting test to your leadership before you sustained them at the last ward or general conference that you apply to me here? Or are you a respecter of men, applying one standard to me who repeats the scriptures, and another to those to whom you pay tithes?
JLHPROF Posted January 16, 2017 Posted January 16, 2017 (edited) In order to help you out I have highlighted some of the ones you have violated just on this thread in red, and the ones you are not applying correct doctrinal context to in blue. You're welcome. 17 minutes ago, etz said: So, let's go over these things again. We are to love God,we are to love our neighbors,we are to make no oaths,we are to not swear that something is true,we are to be forthright in our speech rather than speak evasively,we are to make no preparations for tomorrow,we are to build up no storage of goods nor money nor food nor substance for ourselves,we are to do alms to the poor,we are to give to everyone who asks,we are to forgive every debt owed us,we are to lend to all comers without asking for our stuff back,we are to not ask for our stuff back from those who take it,we are to sell our possessions and distribute the proceeds to the poor,we are to avoid the desire for possessions,we are to refrain from lust,we are to pray always,we are to be merciful,we are to not resist evil,we are to turn the other cheek when struck,we are to comply with those who compel us,we are to concede to our opponents even before they take legal action against us,we are to let those who sue us have what they sue us for,we are to refrain from judging,we are to refrain from condemning,we are to love our enemies,we are to bless those that curse us,we are to do good to those who hate us,we are to pray for those who spitefully exploit these things against us and use us,we are to send back good for evil done to us,we are to forgive every offender even until seventy times seven,we are to not expend effort to preserve our own lives,we are to do every last thing we want done to ourselves to others,we are to wholly walk in these ways as God wholly walks in these ways,we are to both do and teach all these things,if we do these things we are the church and family of God,if we do not do these things we are not the church and family of God. Edited January 16, 2017 by JLHPROF 4
etz Posted January 16, 2017 Author Posted January 16, 2017 Do you, Calmoriah, acknowledge the commandments of the Lord as presented in Matthew chapters 5 through 7, and 3 Nephi chapters 12 through 15? You'll note I do not ask you whether you keep the commandments. I have no need to ask.
etz Posted January 16, 2017 Author Posted January 16, 2017 (edited) 3 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: In order to help you out I have highlighted some of the ones you have violated just on this thread in red, and the ones you are not applying correct doctrinal context to in blue. You're welcome. Feel free to "clarify" the Lord's commandments in their "correct" "doctrinal" "context." As for the red, I point you to Romans 2:1. Edited January 16, 2017 by etz
pogi Posted January 16, 2017 Posted January 16, 2017 Why do you think that Jesus was using the Greco-Roman understanding of the word "perfect"?
JLHPROF Posted January 16, 2017 Posted January 16, 2017 (edited) 8 minutes ago, etz said: Feel free to "clarify" the Lord's commandments in their "correct" "doctrinal" "context." As for the red, I point you to Romans 2:1. It's ok. We can ignore Romans 2:1 since it doesn't contain the commandments of Christ but of Paul. See, following your rules we don't need to worry about any other scripture that doesn't contain the commands of Christ. Ignoring context in application is your specialty. Edited January 16, 2017 by JLHPROF 3
pogi Posted January 16, 2017 Posted January 16, 2017 (edited) 19 minutes ago, etz said: By this implicit tu quoque I see you have not read the thread. Did you apply the same exacting test to your leadership... It was you who claimed to obey all the commandments. By the way etz, may I borrow your car tomorrow...for the next month? If I like it, I may just keep it. Edited January 16, 2017 by pogi
Calm Posted January 16, 2017 Posted January 16, 2017 23 minutes ago, etz said: Do objections logically entail argument? If objections are then challenged as you are doing, yes.
Calm Posted January 16, 2017 Posted January 16, 2017 26 minutes ago, etz said: By this implicit tu quoque I see you have not read the thread. Ewww....false witness. I have indeed read the thread. I may be choosing to not respond to parts of it or perhaps I have even misunderstood it, but reading...done that several times and any claim that I haven't is a falsehood. 2
etz Posted January 16, 2017 Author Posted January 16, 2017 1 hour ago, pogi said: It was you who claimed to obey all the commandments. By the way etz, may I borrow your car tomorrow...for the next month? If I like it, I may just keep it. To keep other commandments I have received I cannot allow you to borrow my vehicle.
etz Posted January 16, 2017 Author Posted January 16, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Calm said: Ewww....false witness. I have indeed read the thread. I may be choosing to not respond to parts of it or perhaps I have even misunderstood it, but reading...done that several times and any claim that I haven't is a falsehood. When we stand before the bar of God, you may explain that to him, when your question was already asked and answered... and you read it, as you say... and you asked it again. Edited January 16, 2017 by etz
etz Posted January 16, 2017 Author Posted January 16, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Calm said: If objections are then challenged as you are doing, yes. Interesting. I assume we're acting in good faith until you tell me you aren't. This, to me, sounds an awful lot like you aren't acting in good faith. I surely may correct honest errors - but errors that are persisted in despite correction cease to be honest, don't they? But then who's arguing in that case? Edited January 16, 2017 by etz
etz Posted January 16, 2017 Author Posted January 16, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, JLHPROF said: It's ok. We can ignore Romans 2:1 since it doesn't contain the commandments of Christ but of Paul. See, following your rules we don't need to worry about any other scripture that doesn't contain the commands of Christ. Ignoring context in application is your specialty. Are you therefore declining to "clarify" the Lord's commandments by providing their "correct" "doctrinal" "context" which justifies not keeping his commandments? Edited January 16, 2017 by etz
etz Posted January 16, 2017 Author Posted January 16, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, pogi said: Why do you think that Jesus was using the Greco-Roman understanding of the word "perfect"? Why do you think that I think that Jesus was using the Greco-Roman understanding of the word "perfect"? If you have no affirmative reason - read "public evidence" - to think that I think that Jesus was using the Greco-Roman understanding of the word "perfect," then why bring it up? Edited January 16, 2017 by etz
Calm Posted January 16, 2017 Posted January 16, 2017 28 minutes ago, etz said: When we stand before the bar of God, you may explain that to him, when your question was already asked and answered... and you read it, as you say... and you asked it again. I lack wisdom, I seek it. God answers such questions, why not you? If we are to forgive 7x70, why not answer questions no matter how often asked? If we are to carry two miles when asked to carry only one, why not answer questions no matter how often asked?
Calm Posted January 16, 2017 Posted January 16, 2017 31 minutes ago, etz said: Interesting. I assume we're acting in good faith until you tell me you aren't. This, to me, sounds an awful lot like you aren't acting in good faith. I surely may correct honest errors - but errors that are persisted in despite correction cease to be honest, don't they? But then who's arguing in that case? I assume we are responding in good faith, but when I read your comments, I read it as you not actively engaging with what others say. When you do not actually engage, but appear to be assuming you are, should .I assume you are being dishonest?
etz Posted January 16, 2017 Author Posted January 16, 2017 Here then is wisdom: keep the commandments of Christ. In a written context, it suffices to note that you may review the thread to find your answer. Unless it's not the answer you're after, you would look it up. You, on the other hand, apparently have answered no questions posed to you on this thread. Why therefore do you seek to apply a different standard to me than that which you are willing to abide yourself?
etz Posted January 16, 2017 Author Posted January 16, 2017 Alma 37:35 O, remember, my son, and learn wisdom in thy youth; yea, learn in thy youth to keep the commandments of God.
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