etz Posted January 15, 2017 Author Posted January 15, 2017 (edited) When a man contradicts the Lord or his word, I choose to believe the Lord and his word over the man. I feel it wise to obey God over men. You are free to do otherwise. Quote Helaman 5:12 And now, my sons, remember, remember that it is upon the rock of our Redeemer, who is Christ, the Son of God, that ye must build your foundation; that when the devil shall send forth his mighty winds, yea, his shafts in the whirlwind, yea, when all his hail and his mighty storm shall beat upon you, it shall have no power over you to drag you down to the gulf of misery and endless wo, because of the rock upon which ye are built, which is a sure foundation, a foundation whereon if men build they cannot fall. We shall see at the end who is on shaky ground. Quote 3 Nephi 14 24 Therefore, whoso heareth these sayings of mine and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, who built his house upon a rock— 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not, for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine and doeth them not shall be likened unto a foolish man, who built his house upon the sand— 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell, and great was the fall of it. Edited January 15, 2017 by etz
Lemuel Posted January 15, 2017 Posted January 15, 2017 So if Christ gave the command to be perfect, and Nephi said "that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them." then was Nephi wrong about that statement? That it applied only to getting the plates but not universally? Is it 'shaky ground' to disagree with Nephi?
pogi Posted January 15, 2017 Posted January 15, 2017 (edited) 12 minutes ago, etz said: When a man contradicts the Lord or his word, I choose to believe the Lord and his word over the man. You don't speak for God. Your interpretation is yours. You ignore all scripture which contradicts your interpretation and mock the prophets of the Lord (who do speak for God) in calling them "self-proclaimed disciples" thereby violating the commandments of God. Edited January 15, 2017 by pogi 2
etz Posted January 15, 2017 Author Posted January 15, 2017 (edited) 9 minutes ago, pogi said: You don't speak for God! Your interpretation is perverse! You ignore all scripture which contradicts your interpretation and mock the prophets of the Lord (who do speak for God) in calling them "self-proclaimed disciples" thereby violating the commandments of God. Said Joseph: "What is the rule of interpretation? Just no interpretation at all. Understand it precisely as it reads." When the scriptures, construed literally, are considered a "perverse interpretation," that is nothing more nor less than to say one literally does not believe them, or does not believe them literally - same difference. In point of fact, I made no reference to the prophets of the LDS Church when I spoke of self-proclaimed disciples of Christ. Edited January 15, 2017 by etz
pogi Posted January 15, 2017 Posted January 15, 2017 (edited) 8 minutes ago, etz said: Said Joseph: "What is the rule of interpretation? Just no interpretation at all. Understand it precisely as it reads." Context helps. Which is why it reads one way to me and the prophets, and the wrong way to you. Joseph tough that it will be a long while before we learn perfection after the grave. https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/sermon-mount-latter-day-scripture/8-be-ye-therefore-perfect-elusive-quest-perfection-0 Edited January 15, 2017 by pogi 1
etz Posted January 15, 2017 Author Posted January 15, 2017 Here is a quick and dirty rule by which we may discern who are not disciples of Christ. D&C 41 5 He that receiveth my law and doeth it, the same is my disciple; and he that saith he receiveth it and doeth it not, the same is not my disciple, and shall be cast out from among you; 6 For it is not meet that the things which belong to the children of the kingdom should be given to them that are not worthy, or to dogs, or the pearls to be cast before swine. It follows that they who do not keep the commandments of Christ are not his disciples, and if such claim to be disciples of Christ, then they are self-proclaimed disciples. It also follows that if someone says the commandments cannot be kept, then they are not keeping them, and also that they do not believe the word of God, and they are not disciples of Christ. It is not to be expected that we should be perfected in one day - but it is to be expected that Christ's disciples will strive keep Christ's commandments with all their heart, might, mind, and strength, and not fight against his word.
etz Posted January 15, 2017 Author Posted January 15, 2017 2 minutes ago, pogi said: Context helps. https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/sermon-mount-latter-day-scripture/8-be-ye-therefore-perfect-elusive-quest-perfection-0 I have no interest in men's opinions. It is the official position of the LDS Church that no man's opinion is worth a straw.
pogi Posted January 16, 2017 Posted January 16, 2017 (edited) 39 minutes ago, etz said: I have no interest in men's opinions. It is the official position of the LDS Church that no man's opinion is worth a straw. If church manuals constitute official church position, and if you are one to adhere to official church position, then you will relinquish your nonsense which contradicts and is a great disservice to official church position. https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-harold-b-lee/chapter-21?lang=eng "It is impossible for us here in mortality to come to that state of perfection of which the Master spoke, but in this life we lay the foundation on which we will build in eternity." Edited January 16, 2017 by pogi
pogi Posted January 16, 2017 Posted January 16, 2017 13 minutes ago, etz said: I have no interest in men's opinions. It is the official position of the LDS Church that no man's opinion is worth a straw. You don't even understand the context of the word "prefect" as used by Christ if you are thinking of perfection in the Greko-Roman context which you obviously are. Read the article!
pogi Posted January 16, 2017 Posted January 16, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Lemuel said: So if Christ gave the command to be perfect, and Nephi said "that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them." then was Nephi wrong about that statement? That it applied only to getting the plates but not universally? Is it 'shaky ground' to disagree with Nephi? Oh no, Nephi's statement applies, but you need to understand context and timelines. Read this: https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/sermon-mount-latter-day-scripture/8-be-ye-therefore-perfect-elusive-quest-perfection-0 Edited January 16, 2017 by pogi
bluebell Posted January 16, 2017 Posted January 16, 2017 1 hour ago, etz said: You may protest that I am wrong because you disagree with me, but that is hardly substantial nor an answer to my question: what, in your view, is the principal objection to actually doing what Christ said to do? I'm not protesting because i disagree with you. I'm simply stating that you don't understand the scriptures or the Atonement if you believe that they teach that one must keep all the commandments to be saved. 1
bluebell Posted January 16, 2017 Posted January 16, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Lemuel said: So if Christ gave the command to be perfect, and Nephi said "that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them." then was Nephi wrong about that statement? That it applied only to getting the plates but not universally? Is it 'shaky ground' to disagree with Nephi? No, he wasn't wrong. Sanctification (being perfect) is possible, just not in this life. Edited January 16, 2017 by bluebell
CV75 Posted January 16, 2017 Posted January 16, 2017 The summum bonum of the whole subject is this: "A stitch in time saves nine. At least."
etz Posted January 16, 2017 Author Posted January 16, 2017 36 minutes ago, pogi said: You don't even understand the context of the word "prefect" as used by Christ if you are thinking of perfection in the Greko-Roman context which you obviously are. Read the article! Why don't you explain what you think I mean by the word "perfect" before we go any further?
pogi Posted January 16, 2017 Posted January 16, 2017 7 minutes ago, etz said: Why don't you explain what you think I mean by the word "perfect" before we go any further? I gave you a reference. Read it
etz Posted January 16, 2017 Author Posted January 16, 2017 14 minutes ago, bluebell said: No, he wasn't wrong. Sanctification (being perfect) is possible, just not in this life. Doctrine and Covenants 20 30 And we know that justification through the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is just and true; 31 And we know also, that sanctification through the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is just and true, to all those who love and serve God with all their mights, minds, and strength. 32 But there is a possibility that man may fall from graceand depart from the living God; 33 Therefore let the church take heed and pray always, lest they fall into temptation; 34 Yea, and even let those who are sanctified take heed also. That suffices to overturn that claim. 18 minutes ago, bluebell said: I'm not protesting because i disagree with you. I'm simply stating that you don't understand the scriptures or the Atonement if you believe that they teach that one must keep all the commandments to be saved. 2 Nephi 9:27 27 But wo unto him that has the law given, yea, that has all the commandments of God, like unto us, and that transgresseth them, and that wasteth the days of his probation, for awful is his state! James 2:10 10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. That suffices to overturn that claim. But let us add Joseph's testimony. I * * * spoke to the people, showing them that to get salvation we must not only do some things, but everything which God has commanded. Men may preach and practice everything except those things which God commands us to do, and will be damned at last. We may tithe mint and rue, and all manner of herbs, and still not obey and teach others to obey God in just what He tells us to do. It mattereth not whether the principle is popular or unpopular, I will always maintain a true principle, even if I stand alone in it. (Feb. 21, 1844.) DHC 6:223.
etz Posted January 16, 2017 Author Posted January 16, 2017 (edited) 8 minutes ago, pogi said: I gave you a reference. Read it In other words, you don't know what I mean, and are disputing what I say nonetheless. I will help you out. "We are to wholly walk in these ways as God wholly walks in these ways." Edited January 16, 2017 by etz
pogi Posted January 16, 2017 Posted January 16, 2017 (edited) 6 minutes ago, etz said: In other words, you don't know what I mean, and are disputing what I say nonetheless. I will help you out. "We are to wholly walk in these ways as God wholly walks in these ways." And what does that mean to you? Edited January 16, 2017 by pogi
etz Posted January 16, 2017 Author Posted January 16, 2017 More on sanctification. Quote Moroni 10 32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God. 33 And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot. Does it matter? It seems to. Quote Alma 7:21 21 And he doth not dwell in unholy temples; neither can filthiness or anything which is unclean be received into the kingdom of God; therefore I say unto you the time shall come, yea, and it shall be at the last day, that he who is filthy shall remain in his filthiness. If you are not sanctified, you are unholy and have spot, and are not found blameless before God.
etz Posted January 16, 2017 Author Posted January 16, 2017 2 minutes ago, pogi said: And what does that mean to you? It means you keep all his commandments - not some, not most, but all.
etz Posted January 16, 2017 Author Posted January 16, 2017 So, I ask again, because this goes unanswered: what is the principal objection you people have to actually doing what you said you were going to do - keep Christ's commandments - when you were A) Baptized, B) Partook of the sacrament, and C) Were endowed? And if you have no objection, then why do you contend against me?
etz Posted January 16, 2017 Author Posted January 16, 2017 This deserves repeating. 13 minutes ago, etz said: Joseph Smith: I * * * spoke to the people, showing them that to get salvation we must not only do some things, but everything which God has commanded. Men may preach and practice everything except those things which God commands us to do, and will be damned at last. We may tithe mint and rue, and all manner of herbs, and still not obey and teach others to obey God in just what He tells us to do. It mattereth not whether the principle is popular or unpopular, I will always maintain a true principle, even if I stand alone in it. (Feb. 21, 1844.) DHC 6:223.
The Nehor Posted January 16, 2017 Posted January 16, 2017 (edited) 9 minutes ago, etz said: So, I ask again, because this goes unanswered: what is the principal objection you people have to actually doing what you said you were going to do - keep Christ's commandments - when you were A) Baptized, B) Partook of the sacrament, and C) Were endowed? And if you have no objection, then why do you contend against me? Let me answer that question with another question: "What gaping emotional void exists in your life that so cripples you that you feel the need to try and fill it with this sanctimonious drivel?" Edited January 16, 2017 by The Nehor
JLHPROF Posted January 16, 2017 Posted January 16, 2017 4 minutes ago, etz said: This deserves repeating. Again, nobody is disagreeing with you. You are making assumption that we are not keeping the commandments based on YOUR interpretation of how the commandments are to be kept. That is the flaw in your argument. I agree 100% that the commandments need to be kept. But they need to be kept according to the Lord's expectations, not yours. 2
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