pogi Posted January 15, 2017 Posted January 15, 2017 1 minute ago, etz said: That one has not presently reached a destination to which he is travelling does not mean the destination cannot be, or shall not be, reached in this life. Joseph Smith: "I told them I was but a man, and they must not expect me to be perfect; if they expected perfection from me, I should expect it from them; but if they would bear with my infirmities and the infirmities of the brethren, I would likewise bear with their infirmities.” https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-joseph-smith/chapter-45?lang=eng David A. Bednar: "We will not attain a state of perfection in this life, but we can and should press forward with faith in Christ along the strait and narrow path and make steady progress toward our eternal destiny." https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2007/10/clean-hands-and-a-pure-heart?lang=eng Harold B. Lee: "It is impossible for us here in mortality to come to that state of perfection of which the Master spoke, but in this life we lay the foundation on which we will build in eternity" https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-harold-b-lee/chapter-21?lang=eng "We all need to realize that perfection in this life is not expected or even possible." https://www.lds.org/manual/preparing-for-exaltation-teachers-manual/lesson-22-striving-for-perfection?lang=eng Russel M. Nelson: "We all need to remember: men are that they might have joy—not guilt trips!" Do I need to continue? 13 minutes ago, etz said: I repeat: if you wait for the perfect teacher you will not like him when he appears, for you shall not be like him. If I am like the perfect teacher, then I don't need a teacher. That is nonsense! Many accepted Christ, but none were like him.
Sleeper Cell Posted January 15, 2017 Posted January 15, 2017 36 minutes ago, etz said: I do not own the device I use to post here. Then perhaps you should spend more time telling that device’s owner(s) that they should sell their device and distribute the proceeds to the poor and far less time using it. 1
etz Posted January 15, 2017 Author Posted January 15, 2017 (edited) Joseph Smith's statement does not relate to whether or not it is possible to be perfect in this life. Bednar and Lee are at variance with the scriptures - you are free to take either them on this point, or the scriptures, but you cannot take both. Your citation of Nelson is not relevant to the topic. I have already cited John. 1 John 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. One may also look up the word "perfect" in the scriptures and see multiple individuals described thereas. One such was Seth. Doctrine and Covenants 107:43 Because he (Seth) was a perfect man, and his likeness was the express likeness of his father, insomuch that he seemed to be like unto his father in all things, and could be distinguished from him only by his age. I am approaching you as though you were interested and trying to reason and making simple errors, as opposed to disputing and contending and trying to defeat what I am saying. Edited January 15, 2017 by etz
etz Posted January 15, 2017 Author Posted January 15, 2017 (edited) As a general principle, if a man conflicts with the word of God, you may take the man, or you may take the word of God, but either way you get your reward from him whom you obey. If you style yourself a disciple of Christ, then why would you not take Christ's word over any man's word? And if you take any man's word over Christ's, are you not the disciple of the man and not a disciple of Christ? Edited January 15, 2017 by etz
etz Posted January 15, 2017 Author Posted January 15, 2017 (edited) The incident from 1 Kings 13 comes to mind. Consider it carefully. Edited January 15, 2017 by etz
etz Posted January 15, 2017 Author Posted January 15, 2017 (edited) 4 minutes ago, bluebell said: Thank goodness for the Atonement. Yes. And behold the conditions thereof. Mosiah 15 22 And now, the resurrection of all the prophets, and all those that have believed in their words, or all those that have kept the commandments of God, shall come forth in the first resurrection; therefore, they are the first resurrection. 23 They are raised to dwell with God who has redeemed them; thus they have eternal life through Christ, who has broken the bands of death. 24 And these are those who have part in the first resurrection; and these are they that have died before Christ came, in their ignorance, not having salvation declared unto them. And thus the Lord bringeth about the restoration of these; and they have a part in the first resurrection, or have eternal life, being redeemed by the Lord. 25 And little children also have eternal life. 26 But behold, and fear, and tremble before God, for ye ought to tremble; for the Lord redeemeth none such that rebel against him and die in their sins; yea, even all those that have perished in their sins ever since the world began, that have wilfully rebelled against God, that have known the commandments of God, and would not keep them; these are they that have no part in the first resurrection. 27 Therefore ought ye not to tremble? For salvation cometh to none such; for the Lord hath redeemed none such; yea, neither can the Lord redeem such; for he cannot deny himself; for he cannot deny justice when it has its claim. Edited January 15, 2017 by etz
Calm Posted January 15, 2017 Posted January 15, 2017 1 hour ago, Lemuel said: Why does it matter? One should do as one teaches.
Calm Posted January 15, 2017 Posted January 15, 2017 1 hour ago, etz said: There is no argument to concede. Do you acknowledge them to be commandments from the Lord? How can you be posting if you are praying?
Calm Posted January 15, 2017 Posted January 15, 2017 10 minutes ago, etz said: Yes. And behold the conditions thereof. Mosiah 15 22 And now, the resurrection of all the prophets, and all those that have believed in their words, or all those that have kept the commandments of God, shall come forth in the first resurrection; therefore, they are the first resurrection. 23 They are raised to dwell with God who has redeemed them; thus they have eternal life through Christ, who has broken the bands of death. 24 And these are those who have part in the first resurrection; and these are they that have died before Christ came, in their ignorance, not having salvation declared unto them. And thus the Lord bringeth about the restoration of these; and they have a part in the first resurrection, or have eternal life, being redeemed by the Lord. 25 And little children also have eternal life. 26 But behold, and fear, and tremble before God, for ye ought to tremble; for the Lord redeemeth none such that rebel against him and die in their sins; yea, even all those that have perished in their sins ever since the world began, that have wilfully rebelled against God, that have known the commandments of God, and would not keep them; these are they that have no part in the first resurrection. 27 Therefore ought ye not to tremble? For salvation cometh to none such; for the Lord hath redeemed none such; yea, neither can the Lord redeem such; for he cannot deny himself; for he cannot deny justice when it has its claim. Etz, do you believe this is scripture? Just curious as most who come here and preach as you do are Bible only believers.
pogi Posted January 15, 2017 Posted January 15, 2017 (edited) 39 minutes ago, etz said: As a general principle, if a man conflicts with the word of God, you may take the man, or you may take the word of God, but either way you get your reward from him whom you obey. If you style yourself a disciple of Christ, then why would you not take Christ's word over any man's word? And if you take any man's word over Christ's, are you not the disciple of the man and not a disciple of Christ? As you know, interpretations vary. My interpretation happens to be in harmony with modern prophets and church teachings, so I am in good company. I only picked a few teachings of the prophets, there are many more. These interpretations are also in line with the following passages of the word of God: “All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” “If any man supposes that he knows anything, he has not yet known as he ought to know.” “For now we see through a glass, darkly” Edited January 15, 2017 by pogi
etz Posted January 15, 2017 Author Posted January 15, 2017 6 minutes ago, Calm said: One should do as one teaches. Quite. And you are wise to check. Mosiah 23:14 And also trust no one to be your teacher nor your minister, except he be a man of God, walking in his ways and keeping his commandments. Did you apply this same test to the prophets and apostles you sustained at the last general conference, or your locally called ministers, such as your bishop or your organist? Or are you a respecter of persons, applying one standard to me and another to those whom you pay tithes to?
etz Posted January 15, 2017 Author Posted January 15, 2017 4 minutes ago, Calm said: Etz, do you believe this is scripture? Just curious as most who come here and preach as you do are Bible only believers. Of course I do. Don't you? What's the point of wasting so much ink on proving the ancient provenance of the Book of Mormon if one is going to entirely go contrary to what the Lord has commanded therein?
bluebell Posted January 15, 2017 Posted January 15, 2017 4 minutes ago, etz said: Yes. And behold the conditions thereof. Mosiah 15 22 And now, the resurrection of all the prophets, and all those that have believed in their words, or all those that have kept the commandments of God, shall come forth in the first resurrection; therefore, they are the first resurrection. 23 They are raised to dwell with God who has redeemed them; thus they have eternal life through Christ, who has broken the bands of death. 24 And these are those who have part in the first resurrection; and these are they that have died before Christ came, in their ignorance, not having salvation declared unto them. And thus the Lord bringeth about the restoration of these; and they have a part in the first resurrection, or have eternal life, being redeemed by the Lord. 25 And little children also have eternal life. 26 But behold, and fear, and tremble before God, for ye ought to tremble; for the Lord redeemeth none such that rebel against him and die in their sins; yea, even all those that have perished in their sins ever since the world began, that have wilfully rebelled against God, that have known the commandments of God, and would not keep them; these are they that have no part in the first resurrection. 27 Therefore ought ye not to tremble? For salvation cometh to none such; for the Lord hath redeemed none such; yea, neither can the Lord redeem such; for he cannot deny himself; for he cannot deny justice when it has its claim. Your posts remind me of this exchange in Jacob 7- "Believest thou the scriptures? And he said, Yea. And I said unto him: Then ye do not understand them;" Who are those who die in their sins? What commandments are being spoken of? Those who die in their sins are those who have do not have faith in Christ, do not repent, are not baptized, have not received the Holy Ghost, and do not continue to have faith in Christ and repent of their sins for the rest of their lives. What commandments must be kept in order to come forth in the first resurrection? The commandments to have faith in Christ, repent, be baptized, receive the Holy Ghost, and endure to the end. 1
etz Posted January 15, 2017 Author Posted January 15, 2017 (edited) 9 minutes ago, bluebell said: Your posts remind me of this exchange in Jacob 7- "Believest thou the scriptures? And he said, Yea. And I said unto him: Then ye do not understand them;" Who are those who die in their sins? What commandments are being spoken of? Those who die in their sins are those who have do not have faith in Christ, do not repent, are not baptized, have not received the Holy Ghost, and do not continue to have faith in Christ and repent of their sins for the rest of their lives. What commandments must be kept in order to come forth in the first resurrection? The commandments to have faith in Christ, repent, be baptized, receive the Holy Ghost, and endure to the end. Joseph said: Repentance is a thing that cannot be trifled with every day. Daily transgression and daily repentance is not that which is pleasing in the sight of God. Samuel said: Helaman 14:13 And if ye believe on his name ye will repent of all your sins, that thereby ye may have a remission of them through his merits. Jesus said: JST Matthew 5 Matt 5:21 Whosoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments and shall teach men so to do, he shall in no wise be saved in the kingdom of heaven; but whosoever shall do and teach these commandments of the law until it be fulfilled, the same shall be called great and shall be saved in the kingdom of heaven. Matt 5:22 For I say unto you, except your righteousness shall exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. You must endure to the end in keeping his commandments - those things he taught, said, and commanded. Mosiah 4 6 I say unto you, if ye have come to a knowledge of the goodness of God, and his matchless power, and his wisdom, and his patience, and his long-suffering towards the children of men; and also, the atonement which has been prepared from the foundation of the world, that thereby salvation might come to him that should put his trust in the Lord, and should be diligent in keeping his commandments, and continue in the faith even unto the end of his life, I mean the life of the mortal body— 7 I say, that this is the man who receiveth salvation, through the atonement which was prepared from the foundation of the world for all mankind, which ever were since the fall of Adam, or who are, or who ever shall be, even unto the end of the world. Edited January 15, 2017 by etz
rodheadlee Posted January 15, 2017 Posted January 15, 2017 2 hours ago, etz said: And let's look more at D&C 93. 26 The Spirit of truth is of God. I am the Spirit of truth, and John bore record of me, saying: He received a fulness of truth, yea, even of all truth; 27 And no man receiveth a fulness unless he keepeth his commandments. 28 He that keepeth his commandments receiveth truth and light, until he is glorified in truth and knoweth all things. Interesting. Where does the opposite idea, that no man is or can be perfect, that none have nor can have a fulness of light in this life, which we hear preached all the time, come from? 2 And they had aviewed themselves in their own bcarnal state, even cless than the dust of the earth. And they all cried aloud with one voice, saying: O have mercy, and apply the datoning blood of Christ that we may receive forgiveness of our sins, and our hearts may be epurified; for we believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who fcreated heaven and earth, and all things; who shall come down among the children of men.
etz Posted January 15, 2017 Author Posted January 15, 2017 (edited) Do you trust the Lord, do you have faith in the Lord, if you do not the things which he says? Do you even believe him, or believe in him, if you do not what he says? Luke 6 46 ¶And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? [remember, the sermon on the mount?] 47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: 48 He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock. 49 But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great. Edited January 15, 2017 by etz
rodheadlee Posted January 15, 2017 Posted January 15, 2017 11 And again I say unto you as I have said before, that as ye have come to the knowledge of the glory of God, or if ye have known of his goodness and have atasted of his love, and have received a bremission of your sins, which causeth such exceedingly great joy in your souls, even so I would that ye should remember, and always retain in remembrance, the greatness of God, and your own cnothingness, and his dgoodness and long-suffering towards you, unworthy creatures, and humble yourselves even in the depths of ehumility, fcalling on the name of the Lord daily, and standing gsteadfastly in the faith of that which is to come, which was spoken by the mouth of the angel. 2
bluebell Posted January 15, 2017 Posted January 15, 2017 4 minutes ago, etz said: Joseph said: Repentance is a thing that cannot be trifled with every day. Daily transgression and daily repentance is not that which is pleasing in the sight of God. Samuel said: Helaman 14:13 And if ye believe on his name ye will repent of all your sins, that thereby ye may have a remission of them through his merits. Jesus said: JST Matthew 5 Matt 5:21 Whosoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments and shall teach men so to do, he shall in no wise be saved in the kingdom of heaven; but whosoever shall do and teach these commandments of the law until it be fulfilled, the same shall be called great and shall be saved in the kingdom of heaven. Matt 5:22 For I say unto you, except your righteousness shall exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. You must endure to the end in keeping his commandments - those things he taught, said, and commanded. Mosiah 4 6 I say unto you, if ye have come to a knowledge of the goodness of God, and his matchless power, and his wisdom, and his patience, and his long-suffering towards the children of men; and also, the atonement which has been prepared from the foundation of the world, that thereby salvation might come to him that should put his trust in the Lord, and should be diligent in keeping his commandments, and continue in the faith even unto the end of his life, I mean the life of the mortal body— 7 I say, that this is the man who receiveth salvation, through the atonement which was prepared from the foundation of the world for all mankind, which ever were since the fall of Adam, or who are, or who ever shall be, even unto the end of the world. You do not understand the concepts of justification, sanctification, or the Atonement in general. That's why you are struggling so much with this. 1
rodheadlee Posted January 15, 2017 Posted January 15, 2017 27 And see that all these things are done in wisdom and aorder; for it is not requisite that a man should run bfaster than he has strength. And again, it is expedient that he should be diligent, that thereby he might win the prize; therefore, all things must be done in order.
etz Posted January 15, 2017 Author Posted January 15, 2017 (edited) 7 minutes ago, bluebell said: You do not understand the concepts of justification, sanctification, or the Atonement in general. That's why you are struggling so much with this. I struggle only in one thing - to understand why self-proclaimed disciples of Christ would seek to overturn his commandments, teaching men that it is not necessary to diligently observe to do all things whatsoever God commands in order to receive his kingdom. I guess you might be a good one to explain this phenomenon to me - what is the principle objection to doing what Christ said to do? 2 Nephi 28:8 And there shall also be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God—he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God. 15 O the wise, and the learned, and the rich, that are puffed up in the pride of their hearts, and all those who preach false doctrines, and all those who commit whoredoms, and pervert the right way of the Lord, wo, wo, wo be unto them, saith the Lord God Almighty, for they shall be thrust down to hell! As we know from Abinadi, failing to teach correctly is considered perverting the ways of the Lord. Mosiah 12:26 I say unto you, wo be unto you for perverting the ways of the Lord! For if ye understand these things ye have not taught them; therefore, ye have perverted the ways of the Lord. Edited January 15, 2017 by etz
bluebell Posted January 15, 2017 Posted January 15, 2017 6 minutes ago, etz said: I struggle only in one thing - to understand why self-proclaimed disciples of Christ would seek to overturn his commandments, teaching men that it is not necessary to diligently observe to do all things whatsoever God commands in order to receive his kingdom. I guess you might be a good one to explain this phenomenon to me - what is the principle objection to doing what Christ said to do? 2 Nephi 28:8 And there shall also be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God—he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God. 15 O the wise, and the learned, and the rich, that are puffed up in the pride of their hearts, and all those who preach false doctrines, and all those who commit whoredoms, and pervert the right way of the Lord, wo, wo, wo be unto them, saith the Lord God Almighty, for they shall be thrust down to hell! As we know from Abinadi, failing to teach correctly is considered perverting the ways of the Lord. Mosiah 12:26 I say unto you, wo be unto you for perverting the ways of the Lord! For if ye understand these things ye have not taught them; therefore, ye have perverted the ways of the Lord. And we are back to Jacob 7- "And I said unto him: Believest thou the scriptures? And he said, Yea. And I said unto him: Then ye do not understand them;" 2
etz Posted January 15, 2017 Author Posted January 15, 2017 (edited) 4 minutes ago, bluebell said: And we are back to Jacob 7- "And I said unto him: Believest thou the scriptures? And he said, Yea. And I said unto him: Then ye do not understand them;" You may protest that I am wrong because you disagree with me, but that is hardly substantial nor an answer to my question: what, in your view, is the principal objection to actually doing what Christ said to do? Edited January 15, 2017 by etz
etz Posted January 15, 2017 Author Posted January 15, 2017 (edited) 3 Nephi 15:1 And now it came to pass that when Jesus had ended these sayings he cast his eyes round about on the multitude, and said unto them: Behold, ye have heard the things which I taught before I ascended to my Father; therefore, whoso remembereth these sayings of mine and doeth them, him will I raise up at the last day. D&C 82:10 I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise. So, again: what is the principal objection to doing what the Lord has commanded us to do? Edited January 15, 2017 by etz
pogi Posted January 15, 2017 Posted January 15, 2017 35 minutes ago, etz said: I struggle only in one thing Wow! Does anybody take you seriously? 36 minutes ago, etz said: I struggle only in one thing - to understand why self-proclaimed disciples of Christ would seek to overturn his commandments, teaching men that it is not necessary to diligently observe to do all things whatsoever God commands in order to receive his kingdom. Who is overturning his commandments here? Should we seek to observe the commandments of God? Absolutely! Can we be perfect in this life? Absolutely not! Are you really calling the prophets of the Lord's church "self-proclaimed disciples of Christ" for saying that perfection is not expected or possible in this life? You are on shaky ground my friend!
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