etz Posted January 16, 2017 Author Posted January 16, 2017 You do have to choose. Do you trust that the Lord will give you what you need if you faithfully serve him? If so, why not give?
etz Posted January 16, 2017 Author Posted January 16, 2017 See, that's the ouchy part. That's where our faith is tested.
etz Posted January 16, 2017 Author Posted January 16, 2017 There is cause to believe that we will be taken care of if we diligently hearken to the commandments and serve God with all our might, mind, and strength. For it is written that thou shalt not muzzle the ox as he treadeth out the corn. Remember how the disciples lacked nothing though they were sent out as homeless bums with neither purse nor scrip. Remember the feeding of the multitudes. Remember Elijah at the creek. Remember the widow's flour and oil which failed not. Remember the manna in the wilderness. Do we believe these things?
etz Posted January 16, 2017 Author Posted January 16, 2017 (edited) See, this is where our faith is tried: will we give up control over our resources and do what the Lord has commanded? If you want a good starting point, I would recommend the counsel of King Benjamin, wherein he said to not suffer the beggar to put up his petition to us in vain. Give to him, even if you think he shall sin with what you give him; judge him not in his petition. And see what happens in your life. Edited January 16, 2017 by etz
JLHPROF Posted January 16, 2017 Posted January 16, 2017 8 minutes ago, etz said: You do have to choose. Do you trust that the Lord will give you what you need if you faithfully serve him? If so, why not give? 7 minutes ago, etz said: See, that's the ouchy part. That's where our faith is tested. See, now you're getting it. Situation matters. I was warned in my patriarchal blessing that I was at risk for giving away my life's substance because I thought others might need it more. I am under covenant to give everything to the building up of the Church and kingdom. We are under commandment to give to the poor and widows. We are under commandment to give to God first, usually through tithing. As you point out we are under commandment to give to our neighbor that asketh. Deciding what takes priority is where the faith really rests. Giving to others BEFORE giving God his portion is actually a sin. 1
etz Posted January 16, 2017 Author Posted January 16, 2017 (edited) Giving to God is easy. "And inasmuch as ye impart of your substance unto the poor, ye will do it unto me." And consider this parable. Quote Matthew 25 31 ¶When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. Edited January 16, 2017 by etz
JLHPROF Posted January 16, 2017 Posted January 16, 2017 1 minute ago, etz said: Giving to God is easy. "And inasmuch as ye impart of your substance unto the poor, ye will do it unto me." That ignores the commandment to tithe (not to mention consecrate). Selective application of commandments. Always an issue. 1
etz Posted January 16, 2017 Author Posted January 16, 2017 (edited) The law of tithing does not say what you may think it does. Edited January 16, 2017 by etz
etz Posted January 16, 2017 Author Posted January 16, 2017 (edited) Quote 1 Verily, thus saith the Lord, I require all their surplus property to be put into the hands of the bishop of my church in Zion, 2 For the building of mine house, and for the laying of the foundation of Zion and for the priesthood, and for the debts of the Presidency of my Church. 3 And this shall be the beginning of the tithing of my people. 4 And after that, those who have thus been tithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever, for my holy priesthood, saith the Lord. 5 Verily I say unto you, it shall come to pass that all those who gather unto the land of Zion shall be tithed of their surplus properties, and shall observe this law, or they shall not be found worthy to abide among you. 6 And I say unto you, if my people observe not this law, to keep it holy, and by this law sanctify the land of Zion unto me, that my statutes and my judgments may be kept thereon, that it may be most holy, behold, verily I say unto you, it shall not be a land of Zion unto you. 7 And this shall be an ensample unto all the stakes of Zion. Even so. Amen. Unless one has placed all one's surplus property - that which is above one's food and clothing (1 Tim 6:8) - in the hands of the Church as described, one cannot keep this law. Edited January 16, 2017 by etz
JLHPROF Posted January 16, 2017 Posted January 16, 2017 4 minutes ago, etz said: The law of tithing does not say what you may think it does. But there remains a commandment to tithe, correct? And tithing is to be paid first is it not? The debate as to what tithing consists of is a subject for another thread. The commandment to pay it is just as valid as the commandment to give our possessions to those who ask. The question is which takes priority - God or man?
etz Posted January 16, 2017 Author Posted January 16, 2017 50 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: But there remains a commandment to tithe, correct? And tithing is to be paid first is it not? The debate as to what tithing consists of is a subject for another thread. The commandment to pay it is just as valid as the commandment to give our possessions to those who ask. The question is which takes priority - God or man? If there is, I don't know where it is, save it be in offerings to the poor. And if offerings to the poor are to be paid first, that would settle that question. And it is written that what we do unto the poor, we do unto God. You are getting a warning. If you don't engage with something more responsive than preaching you will be removed from threads or banned.
etz Posted January 17, 2017 Author Posted January 17, 2017 (edited) I cannot understand what the moderator means by their note. There does not seem to be any objective way - no objective metric, no criterion other than "feelings" - to adjudge whether I am "engaging with something more responsive than preaching." If someone is unsatisfied with my answers, that's on them. Edited January 17, 2017 by etz
etz Posted January 17, 2017 Author Posted January 17, 2017 (edited) In any event - there is no commandment to tithe that I know of other than to give alms and offerings to the poor. The law of tithing as taught by the LDS Church is at variance with its authorizing text. When there is a storehouse, then one is tithed by either giving, or selling off, all one's surplus property, putting it in the hands of the bishop. After that, one gives 10% of one's interest annually - that which is left at the end of the year. This is not a preachment, but an observation. Edited January 17, 2017 by etz
etz Posted January 17, 2017 Author Posted January 17, 2017 And if it displeases the audience to hear about the commandments of Christ, it would seem they could visit other threads and avoid this one. Why it would displease an audience of disciples of Christ to hear about his commandments escapes me, however.
JLHPROF Posted January 17, 2017 Posted January 17, 2017 2 hours ago, etz said: And if it displeases the audience to hear about the commandments of Christ, it would seem they could visit other threads and avoid this one. Why it would displease an audience of disciples of Christ to hear about his commandments escapes me, however. Not displeased personally. But you aren't exactly willing to engage in good faith open discussion. That makes your methodology "preaching" according to the guidelines of the board. 1
etz Posted January 17, 2017 Author Posted January 17, 2017 3 hours ago, JLHPROF said: Not displeased personally. But you aren't exactly willing to engage in good faith open discussion. That makes your methodology "preaching" according to the guidelines of the board. It is precisely that - good faith open discussion - that I am willing to engage in. It is passing strange that any board would punish a poster for the reaction of those who should take offense at him. That would seem to me to be the very principle that casts out, stones, and slays the prophets: "My offendedness is *your* fault and you are punishable therefore!" The chief priests appealed to that principle when they brought Jesus to Pilate (Luke 23:5). poster removed
Anakin7 Posted January 18, 2017 Posted January 18, 2017 My contribution to this thread regarding commandments and why we keep them - http://www.scrollpublishing.com/store/Did-Jesus-Intend.html The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7
Meadowchik Posted January 18, 2017 Posted January 18, 2017 (edited) On Sunday, January 15, 2017 at 6:57 PM, etz said: Presented without citations; you can find them throughout the Gospels and 3rd Nephi. We are to love God, we are to love our neighbors, we are to make no oaths, we are to not swear that something is true, we are to be forthright in our speech rather than speak evasively, we are to make no preparations for tomorrow, we are to build up no storage of goods nor money nor food nor substance for ourselves, we are to do alms to the poor, we are to give to everyone who asks, we are to forgive every debt owed us, we are to lend to all comers without asking for our stuff back, we are to not ask for our stuff back from those who take it, we are to sell our possessions and distribute the proceeds to the poor, we are to avoid the desire for possessions, we are to refrain from lust, we are to pray always, we are to be merciful, we are to not resist evil, we are to turn the other cheek when struck, we are to comply with those who compel us, we are to concede to our opponents even before they take legal action against us, we are to let those who sue us have what they sue us for, we are to refrain from judging, we are to refrain from condemning, we are to love our enemies, we are to bless those that curse us, we are to do good to those who hate us, we are to pray for those who spitefully exploit these things against us and use us, we are to send back good for evil done to us, we are to forgive every offender even until seventy times seven, we are to not expend effort to preserve our own lives, we are to do every last thing we want done to ourselves to others, we are to wholly walk in these ways as God wholly walks in these ways, we are to both do and teach all these things, and if we do these things we are the church and family of God, and if we do not do these things we are not the church and family of God. Remember: the true church are all those that repent and come unto Christ (D&C 10:67-68). Repent means to cease from all sin and keep all the commandments of God. Baptism was your public witness before God and men that you were willing - that is, desirous - to keep the commandments of God. When you took the sacramental bread, you performed this witness again - that you were willing - that is, desirous - to keep Jesus's commandments which he has given you. Why, therefore, not teach and keep these things? As Jesus said: Is it not time to be up and doing? Do you understand what a literal, personal application of all these sayings would entail? Do you not realize that it could directly contradict commands individuals have personally received from God? Do you understand that making such blanket statements could generate serious harm to people taking them seriously? I think your claims are irresponsible and possibly arrogant. For shame. Edited January 18, 2017 by Meadowchik 1
Calm Posted January 18, 2017 Posted January 18, 2017 Poster has been removed if you missed it Meadowchik. Won't be able to respond.
Meadowchik Posted January 18, 2017 Posted January 18, 2017 11 minutes ago, Calm said: Poster has been removed if you missed it Meadowchik. Won't be able to respond. Yes, I saw that after I posted. I just hope that my response helps to temper any influence of the OP. 1
Meadowchik Posted January 18, 2017 Posted January 18, 2017 2 hours ago, Meadowchik said: Do you understand what a literal, personal application of all these sayings would entail? Do you not realize that it could directly contradict commands individuals have personally received from God? Do you understand that making such blanket statements could generate serious harm to people taking them seriously? I think your claims are irresponsible and possibly arrogant. For shame. And there I go getting self-righteous again. Etz, please consider this as me rolling my eyes at myself. I apologize for the last line in my post above.
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