Calm Posted January 16, 2017 Posted January 16, 2017 (edited) I am not intending to teach other readers and I see no need to waste people's time answering questions you don't accept the answers to since you think you know them already. Edited January 16, 2017 by Calm
pogi Posted January 16, 2017 Posted January 16, 2017 9 minutes ago, etz said: To keep other commandments I have received I cannot allow you to borrow my vehicle. Be honest now, which command in your list of commandments requires a car? Can you not just use public transit or Uber? No worries though, let me know when it is next available for an hour. I am available to pick it up ‘round the clock. First, I am surprised to hear that you have a car, I wonder what other possessions you might have? You must have missed this one…”we are to sell our possessions and distribute the proceeds to the poor.” Did you desire that car before you purchased it? Because you know what Christ said about that: “we are to avoid the desire for possessions”. Do you use a seat belt in that car? Have you ever been to the hospital or even the doctor? Because you know…”we are to not expend effort to preserve our own lives”. While driving in your forbidden possession of a car, do you give to every panhandler on the street that you drive by? Remember…“We are to give to everyone who asks”. Do you have any food storage, or any food at all in your fridge and cupboards? Just curious, because Christ said that “we are to build up no storage of goods nor money nor food nor substance for ourselves” That would be silly of me to think that you have a house or own a fridge though, right? Do you have any savings? Did you go to college? Did you repent for going to college? Do you send your kids to school? Do you keep a schedule or make goals? Because you know what the commandments say about that right? “we are to make no preparations for tomorrow” Can I have your savings? Cash out your 401K, Roth IRA or whatever else you might be saving for tomorrow with and give it to me. This sure would take a burden of sin off your shoulder. You could knock out two sins with one stone: “We are to give to everyone who asks” and “we are to make no preparations for tomorrow”. You don’t require a pay check for your labors do you, because…”we are to forgive every debt owed us”. Finally, will you please stop posting about this topic in this forum…”we are to comply with those who compel us”. 2
etz Posted January 16, 2017 Author Posted January 16, 2017 Just now, Calm said: I am not intending to teach, so .I see no need to waste people's time answering questions you don't accept the answers to since you think you know them already. No, you are not teaching, indeed. That has not been the thrust of your interactions.
Calm Posted January 16, 2017 Posted January 16, 2017 Not pretending to be anything, but what I am unlike some people.
pogi Posted January 16, 2017 Posted January 16, 2017 49 minutes ago, etz said: Why do you think that I think that Jesus was using the Greco-Roman understanding of the word "perfect"? Because you seem to think "perfect" as used by Christ means 'sinlessness' or 'flawless behavior' rather than a life of complete loyalty to God in spite of temptations and setbacks.
JLHPROF Posted January 16, 2017 Posted January 16, 2017 14 minutes ago, etz said: Are you therefore declining to "clarify" the Lord's commandments by providing their "doctrinal" "context" which justifies not keeping his commandments? Ok, just because I'm a bit bored, let's pick one. You say Christ commanded "we are to make no oaths" That can only refer to Matthew 5, the only place Christ mentions oaths: 33 ¶Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: 34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God’s throne:selections from the Encyclopedia of Mormonism. Oaths are solemn declarations used to affirm a statement or strengthen a promise. Anciently, oath-swearing formed an important part of social, political, economic, and religious interaction. God himself uses an oath and promise in his covenants with man (cf. Jer. 22:5; Amos 6:8; D&C 97:20). In covenant-making, ritual oaths attest the fidelity of those entering into the covenant. Sometimes an oath is sworn that anticipates punishment in case of failure to perform a specified act, and in some cases the covenant process symbolically depicts specific punishments (Jer. 34:18-19). Oath-swearing was common among the Book of Mormon Peoples. Nephiswore an oath to Zoram assuring him full status in Lehi's family (1 Ne. 4:32-34), and Zoram swore to accompany Nephi and his brothers into the wilderness, after which their "fears did cease concerning him" (1 Ne. 4:37). Oaths of office were administered to judges (Alma 50:39). In a manner reminiscent of biblical and other Near Eastern peoples, the Nephites swore to support Moroni in defensive war, and used their rent garments to represent the punishment they wished upon themselves should they fail (Alma 46:21-22). Oaths were also used with evil intent. For sinister purposes, the Gadianton robbers and the jaredites swore secret oaths that had once been sworn by Cain (Hel. 6:21-26; Ether 8:15; Moses 5:29). Oaths continue to play a role in Latter-day Saint religion and ritual. The higher priesthood is received through an "oath and covenant" (D&C 84:39-40; cf. Heb. 7:11-22) of faithfulness. Following a pattern similar to ancient covenant-making, Latter-day Saints make holy covenants in temples. In their worship and prayer they use the word amen, which in Hebrew means "verily," "truly," or "let it be affirmed," and is considered a form of an oath comparable to expressions used in ancient Israel (Deut. 27:14-26; cf. D&C 88:135). The raising of the right hand of the congregation in periodic conferences in approval for those called to Church positions is viewed as a silent oath signifying one's determination to sustain those persons in their callings. Frequent and superficial use of oaths can become an abuse and may diminish their sincere and sacred functions and oaths made "in vain" are profane and blasphemous. Christ admonished his followers to avoid oaths sworn without real intent and told them to make their commitments simply by saying "yes" or "no" (Matt. 5:33-37;23:16-22). Given all this information, your blanket claim of Christ's ban on making oaths is either completely wrong, or, at the very least, woefully incomplete.
etz Posted January 16, 2017 Author Posted January 16, 2017 (edited) Be honest now, which command in your list of commandments requires a car? Can you not just use public transit or Uber? As I said, I have received other commandments. No worries though, let me know when it is next available for an hour. I am available to pick it up ‘round the clock. Post your phone number and I will let you know when it is next available for an hour. I will also require your insurance information to comply with the law. First, I am surprised to hear that you have a car, I wonder what other possessions you might have? You must have missed this one…”we are to sell our possessions and distribute the proceeds to the poor.” You may wonder. When I heard the command, I sold all that was both mine and saleable. Did you desire that car before you purchased it? Because you know what Christ said about that: “we are to avoid the desire for possessions”. No more than I desire a hammer to pound a nail. Do you use a seat belt in that car? Have you ever been to the hospital or even the doctor? Because you know…”we are to not expend effort to preserve our own lives”. The law requires the use of a seatbelt. I have not been to a hospital nor doctor in an effort to preserve my life of my own will. While driving in your forbidden possession of a car, do you give to every panhandler on the street that you drive by? Remember…“We are to give to everyone who asks”. I do if I have anything to give. Do you have any food storage, or any food at all in your fridge and cupboards? Just curious, because Christ said that “we are to build up no storage of goods nor money nor food nor substance for ourselves” Unfortunately, I did buy a food supply back when I did not understand that my teachers in Church might be teaching something other than the Lord's commandments. It's all unsaleable, being expired. I have sufficient food in the fridge for my family's needs. That would be silly of me to think that you have a house or own a fridge though, right? I have no house. I have a fridge so that my family may have sufficient food on hand for their needs. Do you have any savings? Did you go to college? Did you repent for going to college? Do you send your kids to school? Do you keep a schedule or make goals? Because you know what the commandments say about that right? “we are to make no preparations for tomorrow” I do not have any savings. I did go to college. I did repent for it - by taking a job where the degrees are irrelevant. I send my kids to school according to the law. I keep no schedule nor make goals. Finally, will you please stop posting about this topic in this forum…”we are to comply with those who compel us”. You have no power to compel me, neither do you have power to sue me. As God has commanded his people to persuade all men unto repentance, which means to keep his commandments, I will obey him rather than you. Edited January 16, 2017 by etz
etz Posted January 16, 2017 Author Posted January 16, 2017 9 minutes ago, pogi said: Because you seem to think "perfect" as used by Christ means 'sinlessness' or 'flawless behavior' rather than a life of complete loyalty to God in spite of temptations and setbacks. When I explicitly stated it means to keep all the commandments.
etz Posted January 16, 2017 Author Posted January 16, 2017 8 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Ok, just because I'm a bit bored, let's pick one. You say Christ commanded "we are to make no oaths" That can only refer to Matthew 5, the only place Christ mentions oaths: 33 ¶Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: 34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God’s throne:selections from the Encyclopedia of Mormonism. Oaths are solemn declarations used to affirm a statement or strengthen a promise. Anciently, oath-swearing formed an important part of social, political, economic, and religious interaction. God himself uses an oath and promise in his covenants with man (cf. Jer. 22:5; Amos 6:8; D&C 97:20). In covenant-making, ritual oaths attest the fidelity of those entering into the covenant. Sometimes an oath is sworn that anticipates punishment in case of failure to perform a specified act, and in some cases the covenant process symbolically depicts specific punishments (Jer. 34:18-19). Oath-swearing was common among the Book of Mormon Peoples. Nephiswore an oath to Zoram assuring him full status in Lehi's family (1 Ne. 4:32-34), and Zoram swore to accompany Nephi and his brothers into the wilderness, after which their "fears did cease concerning him" (1 Ne. 4:37). Oaths of office were administered to judges (Alma 50:39). In a manner reminiscent of biblical and other Near Eastern peoples, the Nephites swore to support Moroni in defensive war, and used their rent garments to represent the punishment they wished upon themselves should they fail (Alma 46:21-22). Oaths were also used with evil intent. For sinister purposes, the Gadianton robbers and the jaredites swore secret oaths that had once been sworn by Cain (Hel. 6:21-26; Ether 8:15; Moses 5:29). Oaths continue to play a role in Latter-day Saint religion and ritual. The higher priesthood is received through an "oath and covenant" (D&C 84:39-40; cf. Heb. 7:11-22) of faithfulness. Following a pattern similar to ancient covenant-making, Latter-day Saints make holy covenants in temples. In their worship and prayer they use the word amen, which in Hebrew means "verily," "truly," or "let it be affirmed," and is considered a form of an oath comparable to expressions used in ancient Israel (Deut. 27:14-26; cf. D&C 88:135). The raising of the right hand of the congregation in periodic conferences in approval for those called to Church positions is viewed as a silent oath signifying one's determination to sustain those persons in their callings. Frequent and superficial use of oaths can become an abuse and may diminish their sincere and sacred functions and oaths made "in vain" are profane and blasphemous. Christ admonished his followers to avoid oaths sworn without real intent and told them to make their commitments simply by saying "yes" or "no" (Matt. 5:33-37;23:16-22). Given all this information, your blanket claim of Christ's ban on making oaths is either completely wrong, or, at the very least, woefully incomplete. Where the EoM diverges from Christ and his word, it is Christ and his word I side with. You are free to side with those who diverge from him.
etz Posted January 16, 2017 Author Posted January 16, 2017 22 minutes ago, pogi said: Can I have your savings? Cash out your 401K, Roth IRA or whatever else you might be saving for tomorrow with and give it to me. This sure would take a burden of sin off your shoulder. You could knock out two sins with one stone: “We are to give to everyone who asks” and “we are to make no preparations for tomorrow”. As I mentioned, I have no savings. I keep sufficient on hand for my needs and no more. If you are sincere in your request, post your name and address and I will mail it to you.
pogi Posted January 16, 2017 Posted January 16, 2017 17 minutes ago, etz said: When I explicitly stated it means to keep all the commandments. Umm...yes
Calm Posted January 16, 2017 Posted January 16, 2017 "When I heard the command, I sold all that was both mine and saleable." When did you hear that command and from whom? How many years have you been living this way? What does your family say about it? How old are your kids?
pogi Posted January 16, 2017 Posted January 16, 2017 (edited) 15 minutes ago, etz said: As I mentioned, I have no savings. I keep sufficient on hand for my needs and no more. If you are sincere in your request, post your name and address and I will mail it to you. In other words, I am going to be paying for your retirement and medical expenses in the future...thanks, how compassionate of you! what about the rest of my questions and requests? Edited January 16, 2017 by pogi
Calm Posted January 16, 2017 Posted January 16, 2017 15 minutes ago, etz said: I keep sufficient on hand for my needs and no more. Is this not a violation of this commandment? "Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?"
Calm Posted January 16, 2017 Posted January 16, 2017 22 minutes ago, etz said: Where the EoM diverges from Christ and his word, it is Christ and his word I side with. You are free to side with those who diverge from him. And Joseph Smith? Do you disregard him as well by rejecting the covenants made at baptism and in the temple? Do you take the Sacrament?
etz Posted January 16, 2017 Author Posted January 16, 2017 2 minutes ago, Calm said: "When I heard the command, I sold all that was both mine and saleable." When did you hear that command and from whom? How many years have you been living this way? What does your family say about it? How old are your kids? From the voice of the Spirit, as I read the commandment in the scriptures - "sell that thou hast, and distribute to the poor." I have been living this way for a while. Family members have differing opinions. I will not violate my children's privacy.
etz Posted January 16, 2017 Author Posted January 16, 2017 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Calm said: Is this not a violation of this commandment? "Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?" Only if I take thought for it. Do you not remember the endowments? Whose line was it to ask the messengers for their money? Edited January 16, 2017 by etz
etz Posted January 16, 2017 Author Posted January 16, 2017 3 minutes ago, Calm said: And Joseph Smith? Do you disregard him as well by rejecting the covenants made at baptism and in the temple? Do you take the Sacrament? I do not disregard Joseph. And, Joseph is not my foundation. Jesus is. I am content to let Jesus judge my faithfulness to my covenant with him. I take the sacrament.
etz Posted January 16, 2017 Author Posted January 16, 2017 12 minutes ago, pogi said: In other words, I am going to be paying for your retirement and medical expenses in the future...thanks! what about the rest of my questions and requests? You were fully answered above.
Calm Posted January 16, 2017 Posted January 16, 2017 19 minutes ago, etz said: From the voice of the Spirit, as I read the commandment in the scriptures - "sell that thou hast, and distribute to the poor." I have been living this way for a while. Family members have differing opinions. I will not violate my children's privacy. Thanks for the info. It is wise to protect and respect your children.
Calm Posted January 16, 2017 Posted January 16, 2017 14 minutes ago, etz said: I do not disregard Joseph. And, Joseph is not my foundation. Jesus is. I am content to let Jesus judge my faithfulness to my covenant with him. I take the sacrament. Is not the Sacrament an oath?
etz Posted January 16, 2017 Author Posted January 16, 2017 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Calm said: Is not the Sacrament an oath? No, it is not an oath. Edited January 16, 2017 by etz
JLHPROF Posted January 16, 2017 Posted January 16, 2017 47 minutes ago, etz said: Where the EoM diverges from Christ and his word, it is Christ and his word I side with. You are free to side with those who diverge from him. Nah. You are not choosing between Christ's word and the EoM. You are choosing an incorrect view of Christ's word that doesn't take into account any other revelation.
pogi Posted January 16, 2017 Posted January 16, 2017 11 minutes ago, etz said: You were fully answered above. Where? What about your car, etc.? Why are you still posting after I compelled you to stop? Are you not in violation of the commandments if you do not comply with me?
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