MormonLeaks publishes docs on GA pay, meetings

[HappyJackWagon]

13 minutes ago, Danzo said:

I want to know what his serious questions are.  

The statement he made is an accusation.  There is no context which I can think of where the statement would not be interpreted as an accusation.

Right now it looks like he is saying "I know a secret about the church, its bad, but I won't tell you".  Which is kind of lame.

That's absurd. This isn't a courtroom.

If I say I have serious questions about the church that doesn't mean I am making an accusation. You're reading far too much into this and acting like a bully.

The link to the financial info is out there. Look at it if you want. See that a HUGE amount of Canadian tithing dollars are sent directly to BYU. See how much is paid for employees. Compare that to how much is paid for humanitarian aid etc and draw your own conclusions.

You say...

Quote

He is saying

1.  The financial statements are incomplete

2.  The financial statements are fraudulent

3.  The financial statements show misuse of funds

Please show me where he said these things. I'm not talking about where you imagined him saying these things but show me the quotes. CFR.

Chill out, man and stop inflicting your assumptions and bias onto others.

[rockpond]

13 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Just asking for clarification-

Are you saying that my two questions (There are certainly some members who have done such, but we aren't organized into an Order, are we?  And we don't live the law of consecration right now even though we have made covenants, right?) can't be discussed here? 

 

I don't know how to discuss them further without getting into an inappropriate level of detail regarding temple covenants.

[rockpond]

13 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Unless you are more transparent, I cannot consent.

 

 

 

 

For the sake of the few who are not content, let's spend some time on it. I don't think contentment believing the Brethren know best, certitude in understanding how the principle of common consent works should interfere with that.

 

I do invite you to spend some time on this, not to nag: Posted 1 hour ago

I thought I had responded to the post you linked above ("Posted 1 hour ago").  My response is that one cannot consent to something one has no knowledge of.

[rockpond]

21 minutes ago, Danzo said:

He made an accusation, a Secret, Mysterious, accusation.  

It appears to baseless accusation.  He is saying

1.  The financial statements are incomplete

2.  The financial statements are fraudulent

3.  The financial statements show misuse of funds

 

But he won't say which.

That makes it a baseless, unfounded accusation.   If you can't even describe your concern, you shouldn't make it.

I have said neither 1, 2, or 3.

[Danzo]

3 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

That's absurd. This isn't a courtroom.

If I say I have serious questions about the church that doesn't mean I am making an accusation. You're reading far too much into this and acting like a bully.

The link to the financial info is out there. Look at it if you want. See that a HUGE amount of Canadian tithing dollars are sent directly to BYU. See how much is paid for employees. Compare that to how much is paid for humanitarian aid etc and draw your own conclusions.

You say...

Please show me where he said these things. I'm not talking about where you imagined him saying these things but show me the quotes. CFR.

Chill out, man and stop inflicting your assumptions and bias onto others.

He said the Financial Statements from Canada Raise serious questions.

That is a serious accusation.  How could that not be an accusation?

Maybe it is because I make a living dealing with Financial reporting, but I can not see how one could say that and have it not be a serious accusation.  People go to jail because their Financial Statements raise "serious questions."

 

How can there be any response to the statement if rockpond is unwilling to say what the questions are?

 

 

[rockpond]

Alright, for those who are so interested in my questions that they have insisted on completely derailing the thread, here ya go:

I actually made reference to this question early on, by the way.  I wonder why such a huge proportion of the Canadian tithing dollars go to BYU.

[Danzo]

Just now, rockpond said:

Alright, for those who are so interested in my questions that they have insisted on completely derailing the thread, here ya go:

I actually made reference to this question early on, by the way.  I wonder why such a huge proportion of the Canadian tithing dollars go to BYU.

Thank you, that wasn't so hard, was it?

[rockpond]

1 minute ago, Danzo said:

He said the Financial Statements from Canada Raise serious questions.

That is a serious accusation.  How could that not be an accusation?

Maybe it is because I make a living dealing with Financial reporting, but I can not see how one could say that and have it not be a serious accusation.  People go to jail because their Financial Statements raise "serious questions."

 

How can there be any response to the statement if rockpond is unwilling to say what the questions are?

 

 

People don't go to jail because their financial statements raise serious questions.  They go to jail if those serious questions reveal something illegal.  And I've made no such accusation.

[HappyJackWagon]

1 minute ago, Danzo said:

He said the Financial Statements from Canada Raise serious questions.

That is a serious accusation.  How could that not be an accusation?

Maybe it is because I make a living dealing with Financial reporting, but I can not see how one could say that and have it not be a serious accusation.  People go to jail because their Financial Statements raise "serious questions."

 

How can there be any response to the statement if rockpond is unwilling to say what the questions are?

I've already addressed this. Don't forget the CFR  I'm waiting. Notice of a retraction would also satisfy my CFR

[rockpond]

3 minutes ago, Danzo said:

Thank you, that wasn't so hard, was it?

Nope.  Now, cue all the attacks.

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 minute ago, rockpond said:

Nope.  Now, cue all the attacks.

Are you worried that being transparent about your concerns regarding Canadian tithing and BYU opens you up to attack?

[bluebell]

3 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Alright, for those who are so interested in my questions that they have insisted on completely derailing the thread, here ya go:

I actually made reference to this question early on, by the way.  I wonder why such a huge proportion of the Canadian tithing dollars go to BYU.

It would be interesting to know how many Canadians typically go to BYU or use their resources.  I wonder if that is available anywhere?  It would also be interesting to know how the leadership even decides what tithing will go where.  I guess it's not all going into one 'tithing' pot.

And it would be interesting to know whether or not Canada has a surplus of tithing dollars because they don't have as many temples or meetinghouses (i.e. expenses paid by tithing) and if that contributes to some of it going to BYU.

You've opened a can of worm because now i'm full of questions.....  

 

[cdowis]

3 hours ago, JAHS said:

The "offering in righteousness" is here identified with temple work for the salvation of the dead, which encompasses all the principles of the plan of salvation. If understood in this sense, the offering is already being made in temples across the world by members of the Church. 

But vicarious work was not performed prior to the resurrection of Christ (Talmadge), so this cannot be a "restoration" of the Levite sacrifice.

[stemelbow]

7 minutes ago, bluebell said:

It would be interesting to know how many Canadians typically go to BYU or use their resources.  I wonder if that is available anywhere?  It would also be interesting to know how the leadership even decides what tithing will go where.  I guess it's not all going into one 'tithing' pot.

And it would be interesting to know whether or not Canada has a surplus of tithing dollars because they don't have as many temples or meetinghouses (i.e. expenses paid by tithing) and if that contributes to some of it going to BYU.

You've opened a can of worm because now i'm full of questions.....  

 

It is weird that nearly 37 percent of all Canadians donated tithes (or 38% of all expenses) went to BYU last year.  That type of money would accommodate 1200 students $50,000 for schooling, for instance.  But if each year they give that type of money.  Well, that just seems crazy.  Hopefully it was a one time thing, otherwise I wouldn't know what ot make of it. 

[Danzo]

18 minutes ago, bluebell said:

 I guess it's not all going into one 'tithing' pot.

 

The size and complexity of the church requires there to be more than on 'pot'

You might think of them as 'sub pots '

If there only were one pot, I might be a little more critical of the church's accounting system.

[cdowis]

34 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Alright, for those who are so interested in my questions that they have insisted on completely derailing the thread, here ya go:

I actually made reference to this question early on, by the way.  I wonder why such a huge proportion of the Canadian tithing dollars go to BYU.

This is exactly why the church does not disclose it finances.  It would have to open a 500 person office to respond to  all of the questions about how it spends it money.

I'm pretty sure of the answer, but I don't want to spend the time answering it to a tithe paying, active member of the church who is asking such questions.  It likely involves tax laws in both Canada and the USA, and allocation of resources (buckets for allocated funds) for an international corporation.  The church has to push the money out of Canada ................etc etc etc

Good grief, man.  

Edited January 11, 2017 by cdowis

[Danzo]

27 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

It is weird that nearly 37 percent of all Canadians donated tithes (or 38% of all expenses) went to BYU last year.  That type of money would accommodate 1200 students $50,000 for schooling, for instance.  But if each year they give that type of money.  Well, that just seems crazy.  Hopefully it was a one time thing, otherwise I wouldn't know what ot make of it. 

according the site linked earlier 

$63,378,294 was for 2015

$87,000,000 (46%)  was for 2014

$52,335,500 (35%) was for 2013

$56,956,370 (30%)  was for 2012

 $112,493,900 (50%)  was for 2011

Also remember the dollar figures are likely in canadian dollars so if you are in the US, you need to multiply by about 75% to get US dollar equivalency

Edited January 11, 2017 by Danzo

[Calm]

40 minutes ago, bluebell said:

It would be interesting to know how many Canadians typically go to BYU or use their resources.  I wonder if that is available anywhere?  It would also be interesting to know how the leadership even decides what tithing will go where.  I guess it's not all going into one 'tithing' pot.

And it would be interesting to know whether or not Canada has a surplus of tithing dollars because they don't have as many temples or meetinghouses (i.e. expenses paid by tithing) and if that contributes to some of it going to BYU.

You've opened a can of worm because now i'm full of questions.....  

 

There were a number of them when I attended, had three as roommates.  Had a couple of Canadian profs also.  Canadian students did not have to pay international students' tuition and stuff as long as they were LDS, btw. (At that time unless I misunderstood them, assume it is the same now) 

edited to correct poor word choice

Edited January 11, 2017 by Calm

[Gray]

4 minutes ago, cdowis said:

Good grief, man.  Do you read the scriptures, home teaching, actively do your calling, etc that you have time to ask such questions??

You had the time to ask this question. Does that say something about your faithfulness? Is it only the faithless who have time to think and ask questions? 

[bluebell]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

There were a number of them when I attended, had three as roommates.  Had a couple of Canadian profs also.  Canadian students did not have to pay international students' fees, btw.

I wonder if the church or the school had to pay them?

[Calm]

Oh, I meant in terms of the increased tuition that generally international students have to pay.  As long as they were members, they paid the same...at least that was the impression I got from my roommates.  They were all from a small town in Canada and were lower middle income.

They probably had to have student visas and anything from the government.

[CV75]

44 minutes ago, rockpond said:

I thought I had responded to the post you linked above ("Posted 1 hour ago").  My response is that one cannot consent to something one has no knowledge of.

You answered this one: Posted 4 hours ago

But you have not responded to this one, which was a response to that: Posted 2 hours ago

 

To avoid confusion, I’ll re-post it here:

[CV75]

 

48 minutes ago, rockpond said:

I thought I had responded to the post you linked above ("Posted 1 hour ago").  My response is that one cannot consent to something one has no knowledge of.

You answered this one with that response: Posted 4 hours ago

But you have not responded to this one, which was a response to "one cannot consent to something one has no knowledge of": Posted 2 hours ago

To avoid confusion, I’ll re-post it here:

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

You keep saying that, but transparency is not knowledge. It is openness and accountability. Requisite knowledge can be obtained without these when faith is exercised, especially in a spiritual or religious context.

When speaking of spiritual principles like faith, knowledge, common consent, and covenants, “consent,” especially as used in the times these revelations were given, means: accordance, agreement, unity and harmony, all of which in the context of a religious community are reflected in attitude and not so much by procedure (the “agreement of the mind to what is proposed or stated by another; accord; hence, a yielding of the mind or will to that which is proposed”). http://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/consent

We have knowledge of the terms under which a prophet is to operate with the saints (D&C 26): The Lord makes known to him what to do, and the saints consent to these things. Both the prophet and the saints act with spiritual faith and spiritual knowledge. The prophet has the knowledge of the Lord and the keys to act on it in faith. This is the proposal the saints consent to, also in faith.

The covenants of sacrifice and consecration and the terms proposed therein are administered to the saints under the prophetic/apostolic keys in faith. The saints are to act on this knowledge when they willingly enter those covenants, and practice common consent accordingly.

What you are talking about is control, not consent.

Edited January 11, 2017 by CV75

[Calm]

According to an anti site, the Church uses BYU as a destination for Canadian tithing because foreign educational institutions are one of the few organizations that charitable donations can be taken out of Canada for (donations given to a charity---in this case the Church in Canada---can only be given to a very limited number for foreign charities/organization),

If all tithing goes to Salt Lake City preferably (it can't in some countries), it would make sense to use BYU as the equivalent.  US tithing dollars can then be used for other things, including temples and chapels in poorer countries.

Edited January 12, 2017 by Calm

[Duncan]

Not every Canadian gets into BYU or BYUI, some do some don't. Like anything, some want to go and some don't. Let's not forget Canada is also building a Temple here and that costs money, it ain't free.