Danzo Posted January 11, 2017 Posted January 11, 2017 38 minutes ago, rockpond said: Alright, for those who are so interested in my questions that they have insisted on completely derailing the thread, here ya go: I actually made reference to this question early on, by the way. I wonder why such a huge proportion of the Canadian tithing dollars go to BYU. I looked at the financial data provided by the website, linked in to earlier. One important thing to consider. The statement of revenues does not indicated what type of donations constitute revenue. It doesn't distinguish between tithing, offerings, and other donations. It also does not indicate donations that restricted donations (i.e specifically directed or restricted to BYU) Without this information, it would be impossible to say how much tithing money goes to BYU and how much the donations going to byu are in the form of restricted funds donations (for example scholarships or specific bequests) However, It has always been my understanding that BYU relies heavily on tithing funds to operate and that LDS BYU students pay a much lower than market rate for private school tuition because of this. Therefore the amounts spent do not, in and of themselves bother me. 1
cdowis Posted January 11, 2017 Posted January 11, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, rockpond said: An order in which everyone has consecrated all of their resources does exist today. Rockpond, The United Order no longer exists, we no longer send missionaries without purse or script, the church has grown from a few thousands in Deseret to 15M which encompasses most of the planet, we no longer practice living polygamy. In His wisdom, without consulting with the members of the church, the Lord ha inspired the key holder of the administration of the church that the nature and extent of common consent has changed to reflect those changes. This church is not the same church when that revelation was given. This has become a gospel hobby for you, hasn't it. It is just common sense. Edited January 11, 2017 by cdowis
CV75 Posted January 11, 2017 Posted January 11, 2017 47 minutes ago, rockpond said: Alright, for those who are so interested in my questions that they have insisted on completely derailing the thread, here ya go: I actually made reference to this question early on, by the way. I wonder why such a huge proportion of the Canadian tithing dollars go to BYU. A fair enough question. What is the serious concern?
rockpond Posted January 11, 2017 Author Posted January 11, 2017 18 minutes ago, cdowis said: This is exactly why the church does not disclose it finances. It would have to open a 500 person office to respond to all of the questions about how it spends it money. I'm pretty sure of the answer, but I don't want to spend the time answering it to a tithe paying, active member of the church who is asking such questions. It likely involves tax laws in both Canada and the USA, and allocation of resources (buckets for allocated funds) for an international corporation. The church has to push the money out of Canada ................etc etc etc Good grief, man. I understand the tax laws that cause the church to allocate the funds that way. Thank you for editing out your inappropriate question but I'll answer it anyway because so many seem to want to paint a false picture of people like me who ask questions (even though questions are supposed to be honored in the church): I am an active, temple-recommend holding member. I serve faithfully and was just released after more than 4 years of serving as a counselor to two bishops. I am now serving in the YM Presidency. I do my home teaching. Read my scriptures. Have family prayer and FHE. And I serve in the community. I was pressured into expressing my question so you can drop the "good grief man" comment as well. Is having knowledge of something worthy of your ridicule? Or just that fact that my brain took the millisecond necessary to process the question about the knowledge? (I'd really like to hear your answer to those questions.) Regarding the Church needing to answer questions: They disclose their finances in Canada, Great Britian, New Zealand and probably some other locations I am not aware of. And, to my knowledge, they haven't opened up a 500 person office to respond to questions. It seems that they haven't even responded to any questions that people have about what is currently disclosed.
rockpond Posted January 11, 2017 Author Posted January 11, 2017 10 minutes ago, cdowis said: Rockpond, The United Order no longer exists, we no longer send missionaries without purse or script, the church has grown from a few thousands in Deseret to 15M which encompasses most of the planet, we no longer practice living polygamy. In His wisdom, without consulting with the members of the church, the Lord ha inspired the key holder of the administration of the church that the nature and extent of common consent has changed to reflect those changes. This church is not the same church when that revelation was given. This has become a gospel hobby for you, hasn't it. It is just common sense. I'm loving how everyone needs to turn this personal. Make it about my worthiness in the gospel. Nice.
rockpond Posted January 11, 2017 Author Posted January 11, 2017 (edited) 26 minutes ago, Danzo said: I looked at the financial data provided by the website, linked in to earlier. One important thing to consider. The statement of revenues does not indicated what type of donations constitute revenue. It doesn't distinguish between tithing, offerings, and other donations. It also does not indicate donations that restricted donations (i.e specifically directed or restricted to BYU) Without this information, it would be impossible to say how much tithing money goes to BYU and how much the donations going to byu are in the form of restricted funds donations (for example scholarships or specific bequests) However, It has always been my understanding that BYU relies heavily on tithing funds to operate and that LDS BYU students pay a much lower than market rate for private school tuition because of this. Therefore the amounts spent do not, in and of themselves bother me. So you think it's possible that the members making the donations are specifically directing 30% to 50% of all their donations to BYU? Year after year? Edited January 11, 2017 by rockpond clarification 2
halconero Posted January 11, 2017 Posted January 11, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, rockpond said: I believe we do actually live the law of consecration (lower case l and c). And I disagree with Halconero's interpretation. But this just isn't something we can discuss here. Sorry. Disagreement is fine. But next session you go to listen to the specific verbs associated with each covenant. The first for are explicitly in force, the last the covenant changes. No need to apologize or say sorry, but seriously, the change is fascinating regardless of your position on it, and the implications of the change are significant I believe. Not that I don't want to live the consecration, but considering the symbolic area in which it takes place I'm not convinced the church is required to at this time. Edited January 11, 2017 by halconero 2
Calm Posted January 11, 2017 Posted January 11, 2017 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Duncan said: Not every Canadian gets into BYU or BYUI, some do some don't. Like anything, some want to go and some don't. Let's not forget Canada is also building a Temple here and that costs money, it ain't free. It does not appear to be about funding BYU, but getting tithing dollars outside of Canada so they can be used for nonCanadian projects. Since BYU is part of the expenses tithing pays for, by Canadian dollars covering that, it frees up other tithing dollars most likely from the US to pay for other tithing expenses. Technically speaking Canadian dollars may be proportionally much higher in supporting BYU than US tithing even if percentagewise many less Canadians attend, but then Canadian dollars may be contributing much less to global missionary work, temple and chapel building, building up language resources such as on LDS.org, etc. which US tithing could pay for (and yes, we have to take this on faith as far as I know). It doesn't really matter as long as all needs get covered and they don't create projects at .BYU solely so they can use up Canadian tithing money and wouldn't have them if the tithing wasn't available. If the BYU expenses are necessary and would be paid by other tithing if the Canadian government changed their laws, I don't see why this would be an issue in itself. It doesn't mean that Canadian tithing is being siphoned off of other projects it could be going to pay for. You could argue that BYU is unnecessary and shouldn't be getting any tithing money from anyone, of course. Edited January 11, 2017 by Calm 4
Calm Posted January 11, 2017 Posted January 11, 2017 (edited) 7 minutes ago, rockpond said: So you think it's possible that 30% to 50% of all donations in Canada are specifically directed to BYU? Year after year? More than likely. And the US tithing that it replaces likely goes to global projects. Someone who knows US law can say if they are more liberal in allowing US dollars to leave the States. Edited January 11, 2017 by Calm
rockpond Posted January 11, 2017 Author Posted January 11, 2017 14 minutes ago, CV75 said: A fair enough question. What is the serious concern? I started to type an answer. But forget it. I'm under no obligation to continue to express myself here where my faithfulness is just going to come under attack. If people actually care, they are welcome to process the data that has been presented and arrive at their own conclusions. But, I already know the prevailing sentiment that will be expressed despite having unanswered questions: The Brethren are right. They are not infallible but we can't question any of their decisions lest we be accused of being unfaithful and on the road to apostasy. 1
rockpond Posted January 11, 2017 Author Posted January 11, 2017 3 minutes ago, Calm said: More than likely. And the US tithing that it replaces likely goes to global projects. Someone who knows US law can say if they are more liberal in allowing US dollars to leave the States. No, I meant that the members making the donations are specifically directing 30-50% of it to BYU. That's the point I was responding to.
rockpond Posted January 11, 2017 Author Posted January 11, 2017 12 minutes ago, halconero said: Disagreement is fine. But next session you go to listen to the specific verbs associated with each covenant. The first for are explicitly in force, the last the covenant changes. No need to apologize or say sorry, but seriously, the change is fascinating regardless of your position on it, and the implications of the change are significant I believe. Not that I don't want to live the consecration, but considering the symbolic area in which it takes place I'm not convinced the church is required to at this time. I'll listen carefully.
Danzo Posted January 11, 2017 Posted January 11, 2017 9 minutes ago, rockpond said: So you think it's possible that 30% to 50% of all donations in Canada are specifically directed to BYU? Year after year? I think that is what the report indicates All Donations. However it doesn't say 30 to 50% of Tithing Donations The report does not break down the type of donation. If there are donations restricted to BYU than they would have to go 100% to BYU. For example, if I were filthy rich, I might want to make a 10 million dollar donation to the LDS church for BYU. That would show up under revenues on the report and would then go directly BYU. Then you would have the situation where 30-50% of all donated funds would go toward BYU, but it would be a much small percentage of the Tithing Money. Restricted funds donation are very common in non profit organizations. I think that a breakdown of donation sources would make the situation more clear.
halconero Posted January 11, 2017 Posted January 11, 2017 3 minutes ago, rockpond said: I'll listen carefully. Observe and keep vs. Accept That's about all I'll say about that, as I'm already pushing the boundaries. Cheers, and enjoy your sesh.
rockpond Posted January 11, 2017 Author Posted January 11, 2017 8 minutes ago, Danzo said: I think that is what the report indicates All Donations. However it doesn't say 30 to 50% of Tithing Donations The report does not break down the type of donation. If there are donations restricted to BYU than they would have to go 100% to BYU. For example, if I were filthy rich, I might want to make a 10 million dollar donation to the LDS church for BYU. That would show up under revenues on the report and would then go directly BYU. Then you would have the situation where 30-50% of all donated funds would go toward BYU, but it would be a much small percentage of the Tithing Money. Restricted funds donation are very common in non profit organizations. I think that a breakdown of donation sources would make the situation more clear. I think it's a stretch to consider BYU specific donations that high a percentage. It's not like it's a spot on the tithing slip. Wouldn't those individuals just donate directly to BYU? But, I agree with your final statement. 1
JLHPROF Posted January 11, 2017 Posted January 11, 2017 18 minutes ago, halconero said: Disagreement is fine. But next session you go to listen to the specific verbs associated with each covenant. The first for are explicitly in force, the last the covenant changes. No need to apologize or say sorry, but seriously, the change is fascinating regardless of your position on it, and the implications of the change are significant I believe. Not that I don't want to live the consecration, but considering the symbolic area in which it takes place I'm not convinced the church is required to at this time. I see the difference you are referencing. "Observe and keep" for others, "Accept" for consecration. Your suggestion is that this falls under Brigham's "polygamist, at least in your faith" idea. We have to follow consecration "at least in our faith". I had to go reread the covenant. Read it over a half dozen times. And I don't agree with you. Yes, the wording says "accept". However the wording specifies that you show your acceptance of that law by actually consecrating during the making of the covenant. Anybody under that covenant has already agreed, not to observe the law in the future, but they have already done so. They just have to live accordingly going forward.
Kenngo1969 Posted January 11, 2017 Posted January 11, 2017 (edited) What do you think of Calm's hypothesis that a disproportionately high percentage of Canadian contributions go to support BYU because education is one exception to the law forbidding use of charitable contributions outside of Canada? Edited January 11, 2017 by Kenngo1969
CV75 Posted January 11, 2017 Posted January 11, 2017 20 minutes ago, rockpond said: I started to type an answer. But forget it. I'm under no obligation to continue to express myself here where my faithfulness is just going to come under attack. If people actually care, they are welcome to process the data that has been presented and arrive at their own conclusions. But, I already know the prevailing sentiment that will be expressed despite having unanswered questions: The Brethren are right. They are not infallible but we can't question any of their decisions lest we be accused of being unfaithful and on the road to apostasy. Nobody knows who you are; why worry about the perceptions? I'm not sure what transparency and common consent have to do with the Brethren being right or fallible, but there's no reason not to address the use of Canadian tithing funds for BYU. I think Calm answered the technical part, which makes sense to me; I'd now like to look into the serious concern the practice raises.
amo Posted January 11, 2017 Posted January 11, 2017 6 hours ago, rockpond said: I don't have a link for where to access them. You'll have to research that on your own and see if they raise any questions for you. Oh, ok, so now you can say whatever is in your mind and try to make us believe you are telling us the truth, Mmmm, it just doesn't work that way nowadays. Either you come up with a verifiable reference or we may just have to conclude that you are exaggerating, if not lying. You choose...
CV75 Posted January 11, 2017 Posted January 11, 2017 31 minutes ago, Calm said: It does not appear to be about funding BYU, but getting tithing dollars outside of Canada so they can be used for nonCanadian projects. Since BYU is part of the expenses tithing pays for, by Canadian dollars covering that, it frees up other tithing dollars most likely from the US to pay for other tithing expenses. Technically speaking Canadian dollars may be proportionally much higher in supporting BYU than US tithing even if percentagewise many less Canadians attend, but then Canadian dollars may be contributing much less to global missionary work, temple and chapel building, building up language resources such as on LDS.org, etc. which US tithing could pay for (and yes, we have to take this on faith as far as I know). It doesn't really matter as long as all needs get covered and they don't create projects at .BYU solely so they can use up Canadian tithing money and wouldn't have them if the tithing wasn't available. If the BYU expenses are necessary and would be paid by other tithing if the Canadian government changed their laws, I don't see why this would be an issue in itself. It doesn't mean that Canadian tithing is being siphoned off of other projects it could be going to pay for. You could argue that BYU is unnecessary and shouldn't be getting any tithing money from anyone, of course. Elevated concerns over who-gets-what-and-how kind of reminds me of D&C 105, since we've been talking about the United Order... 1
HappyJackWagon Posted January 11, 2017 Posted January 11, 2017 12 minutes ago, rockpond said: I think it's a stretch to consider BYU specific donations that high a percentage. It's not like it's a spot on the tithing slip. Wouldn't those individuals just donate directly to BYU? But, I agree with your final statement. Sending Canadian dollars to BYU is simply an accounting mechanism to legally move the funds without tax liability. Canadians aren't really paying that much towards BYU. Remember... ALL church funds are FUNGIBLE. They just shift them around. IOW- I don't get upset about the Canada/BYU thing any more than I get upset about the church saying it doesn't pay leader's stipends out of tithing funds. It's ALL the same thing because the funds are interchangeable between ledgers. 3
amo Posted January 11, 2017 Posted January 11, 2017 6 hours ago, rockpond said: I'm not sure what you are saying but my point was that there is a covenant that many of us have made that still makes section 104 relevant. Aside from just the fact that it was left in the D&C (that, IMO, also makes it relevant). Well, again, you said it, it's your "opinion" . Although some of it is still in place today, the Order doesn't exist anymore.
Danzo Posted January 11, 2017 Posted January 11, 2017 12 minutes ago, rockpond said: I think it's a stretch to consider BYU specific donations that high a percentage. It's not like it's a spot on the tithing slip. Wouldn't those individuals just donate directly to BYU? But, I agree with your final statement. I am not sure, but there are many times people with large amounts of wealth, for whatever reason contact and make specific donations to the church that are not on the Tithing Slips. I have heard of land donated for temples directly, Large endowments to BYU and other donations. you may be right and the percentages on the report may approximate percentages of tithing donations, but the report is not specific enough to say that with certainty. I know of many organization (one speficicaly that I did the 990 for) where tithing donations constituted a relatively small percentage of over all donations.
rockpond Posted January 11, 2017 Author Posted January 11, 2017 9 minutes ago, amo said: Oh, ok, so now you can say whatever is in your mind and try to make us believe you are telling us the truth, Mmmm, it just doesn't work that way nowadays. Either you come up with a verifiable reference or we may just have to conclude that you are exaggerating, if not lying. You choose... The link was provided. Turns out I was telling the truth.
Danzo Posted January 11, 2017 Posted January 11, 2017 5 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said: Sending Canadian dollars to BYU is simply an accounting mechanism to legally move the funds without tax liability. Canadians aren't really paying that much towards BYU. Remember... ALL church funds are FUNGIBLE. They just shift them around. IOW- I don't get upset about the Canada/BYU thing any more than I get upset about the church saying it doesn't pay leader's stipends out of tithing funds. It's ALL the same thing because the funds are interchangeable between ledgers. The funds are not interchangeable between ledgers. That is not how funds based accounting works. Co mingling funds is a good way to get in trouble very quickly with the IRS.
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