Eternal nature versus personality changed

[Freedom]

If our personalities can be significant altered from a brain injury, how is it that our nature is eternal? What evidence is there that our personalities, will and passions are anything but due to our physical bodies? If a person can change from being gentle to violent with a blow to the head, then how does our pre-earth live nature play into it?

[mfbukowski]

23 minutes ago, Freedom said:

If our personalities can be significant altered from a brain injury, how is it that our nature is eternal? What evidence is there that our personalities, will and passions are anything but due to our physical bodies? If a person can change from being gentle to violent with a blow to the head, then how does our pre-earth live nature play into it?

Our "nature" does not exist.   We are what we are.   The spirit is intertwined with the body- remember spirit itself is material, just "more refined".

If the "less refined" material is messed up, it's going to mess up the "more refined" material because it is all material.  But we are told that God makes up for it.

There is no such thing as objective "evidence" for spiritual matters.   Ain't gonna happen.   That's like trying to take a picture of God.  There will NEVER be "evidence" that our personalities are anything but due to our physical bodies.  Evidence is about things physical.  

It's like asking why there is no light when it's dark.

There's no light when it's dark because darkness is the absence of light.

Physical stuff IS the lack of spiritual stuff.

D&C 131

Quote

 

 7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;

 8 We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter.

 

It says it just as plainly as can be right there  "WE CANNOT SEE IT"

You are asking to see something invisible.   It's like asking to see cosmic rays- you can't.

Edited December 16, 2016 by mfbukowski

[Freedom]

8 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Our "nature" does not exist.   We are what we are. 

You are asking to see something invisible.   It's like asking to see cosmic rays- you can't.

You make good points. I am asking to see anything per say. I am not clear how you distinguish between our nature and 'we are what we are'. We are eternal, this is our nature. We have always existed and we were sent here to be tested based on our character.A character that was forged for ions before we were born. then we are born and all is changed with dna and chemistry.  

[The Nehor]

What we are now is in many ways a crippled messed up version of what we really are limited by handicaps given by nature and/or nurture and saddled with weaknesses that do not belong to us. I am sure my eternal personality is not what I am now. If my current limitations in my brain and body can warp me then having a damaged brain would warp it even more. The spirit influences the messed up meat but what we do with the messed up meat matters. If it is crippled to the point that the Spirit has little or no influence then I assume my spirit is no longer accountable and the Savior will heal any damage done but while I am to whatever degree accountable I am going to try to get my divinity in charge as much as I can. It will be limited but as I expect the Savior would say: "It is enough."

By that I do not mean we are so far off that there will be no recognizable bit of us left. We will not be killed and replaced by a mostly quiet spirit inside of us. We will be made whole. All that is good in us will be magnified. Even those of us who will fall short of exaltation I expect will be healed beyond what even the greatest saints here have become. 

[mfbukowski]

43 minutes ago, Freedom said:

You make good points. I am asking to see anything per say. I am not clear how you distinguish between our nature and 'we are what we are'. We are eternal, this is our nature. We have always existed and we were sent here to be tested based on our character.A character that was forged for ions before we were born. then we are born and all is changed with dna and chemistry.  

Well what I mean is that the nature of a human is to be human, the nature of a dog is to be a dog, the nature of a horse is to be a horse, etc.

To me the word "nature" used in that context is a useless word- and really so is the word "character" possibly.  Neither words add anything to the description of what humans are like.

Yes, we are eternal, yes we are gods in embryo, yes we are many things that humans are, but saying we have a human "nature" doesn't really describe any aspects of what we are.

That's all my point was really.

Just because there exists a word, doesn't mean it magically creates a reality which corresponds to the word.  To me that's like saying the Trinity consists of "substance" or that Chirst as two "natures", one divine and one human.

To me, we cannot distinguish being human FROM having that spark of divinity within us.  Using the word "nature" gives the illusion that "nature" is a thing that Christ has two of, and we only have one of- but that is misleading.  There is nothing floating around out there called "nature" that we might have one or two or three of- it is just a summary of what we are, and for us being a god in embryo IS part of what it is to be human- it is part of our "nature"

D&C 88 makes it pretty clear I think that the "soul" is the unification of the spirit and body and that is the "complete us" that once unified when we are born, becomes ":what we are" and perhaps one could say that the soul itself is our "nature" if one wants to think of it that way.  So if the body is defective that will affect the spirit until the defective body is perfected in the resurrection.  But we know that defective bodies are not relevant to God- we know that unaccountable people are saved in the celestial kingdom and that, as it says below, we must "fill the measure of our creation".  If the measure of MY creation is less than your measure- if you have more capacity to be righteous than me, I will only be judged for my capacity and will have a "lower bar" than you- but still each of us has to do our very BEST- even if my "best" is lower than your "best"

Quote

 

 14 Now, verily I say unto you, that through the redemption which is made for you is brought to pass the resurrection from the dead.

 15 And the spirit and the body are the soul of man.

 16 And the resurrection from the dead is the redemption of the soul.

 17 And the redemption of the soul is through him that quickeneth all things, in whose bosom it is decreed that the poor and the meek of the earth shall inherit it.

 18 Therefore, it must needs be sanctified from all unrighteousness, that it may be prepared for the celestial glory;

 19 For after it hath filled the measure of its creation, it shall be crowned with glory, even with the presence of God the Father;

 20 That bodies who are of the celestial kingdom may possess it forever and ever; for, for this intent was it made and created, and for this intent are they sanctified.

 

 

[CV75]

8 hours ago, Freedom said:

If our personalities can be significant altered from a brain injury, how is it that our nature is eternal? What evidence is there that our personalities, will and passions are anything but due to our physical bodies? If a person can change from being gentle to violent with a blow to the head, then how does our pre-earth live nature play into it?

I think it's the same dynamic we have with the alert and sleeping states. The same spirit is experiencing different conditions, some over which he has control over, and some not (that's life; that's the test). It's what we willingly do with what we willingly have and obtain to willingly act upon that expresses our nature.

[RevTestament]

8 hours ago, Freedom said:

If our personalities can be significant altered from a brain injury, how is it that our nature is eternal? What evidence is there that our personalities, will and passions are anything but due to our physical bodies? If a person can change from being gentle to violent with a blow to the head, then how does our pre-earth live nature play into it?

This is a complicated question, but let's take an example. Say person X has a high intelligence, but his/her hypothalamus is damaged by a blow to the head or in a surgery. Now their once wonderful memory is messed up. They can still remember everything in their past, but cannot learn new stuff. Are they intelligent still? What if an otherwise intelligent spirit is sent to a genetically damaged down-syndrome body?

Obviously, our spirits are somewhat constrained or limited by our physical bodies. There may have been many potential Albert Einsteins who didn't become known because their physical bodies just didn't sync quite right. How God determines who goes where is a largely unknown factor, but I believe has to do with fore-ordination and life choices. Right now we simply have no better answers I don't think.

[Vance]

I have often wondered how much of who we are comes from the physical body and how much comes from our spirit.  I suppose that I when I die I might find out.  Until then, I likely will not know.

 

Oh the mystery of it all.

[Calm]

23 hours ago, Freedom said:

If our personalities can be significant altered from a brain injury, how is it that our nature is eternal? What evidence is there that our personalities, will and passions are anything but due to our physical bodies? If a person can change from being gentle to violent with a blow to the head, then how does our pre-earth live nature play into it?

Haven't read the rest of responses so may be a repeat.

Perhaps our bodies are currently similar to an iron man suit prototype that heads off in the wrong direction and still needs a lot of fine tuning, kind of like the original suit constructed in the prison in the first movie.  Communication isn't all that great, nor is perception...the result is the suit getting crashed though it fulfills its purpose.  Our eternal nature will be able to be fully expressed when the quality of our bodies matches up perfectly with the quality of our spirits.  Until then, a significant portion of our eternal nature is veiled or asleep, numbed perhaps...unable to influence our behaviour as significantly as the "natural man" aspect...that part of our selves contributed by the 'inferior quality' physical frame our spiritual nature is interacting with, but not completely intermeshed yet.

If the physical receptacle is further damaged through brain injury, changes can occur...whether that means less of our eternal nature is getting through or the 'original' was as messed up, poorly connected as the damaged version, couldn't say for sure, but I am guessing neither are a very clear picture of our eternal selves.

Once the veil is lifted, our eternal nature will be fully expressed again, but also able to fully analyze and incorporate our mortal experiences (and I wouldn't be surprised if this means everyone's is accessible to each individual who desires such insight given the oneness attribute of God and his ability to know all our hearts).  At that point we will be able to make a fully informed choice on what we wish to become...one with God or perhaps a lesser, less complete connection with him, or a very few complete rejection.  We will have seen where choices lead and will be able to know what is most important to us and how to become that experience.

Edited December 17, 2016 by Calm

[Freedom]

interesting thoughts. I suppose, just s physical deformities can affect our personalities, so can experiences, and so can our own will. It is the merging of the body and spirit that throws us for a loop and we will be given time to master this stage of existence. I wonder if it took us quite some time to master life as a spirit if in fact we did evolve from simple intelligences into spirits, which I am not convinced of. 

[theplains]

On 16/12/2016 at 1:30 AM, Freedom said:

You make good points. I am asking to see anything per say. I am not clear how you distinguish between our nature and 'we are what we are'. We are eternal, this is our nature.

Based on your use of "nature" and "eternal", how is Jesus the eternal God when the LDS Church teaches
Jesus was the first spirit child born to Heavenly Parents who became a god when he reached some level
of intelligence?

Thanks,
Jim

[cdowis]

On 12/16/2016 at 0:56 AM, Freedom said:

If our personalities can be significant altered from a brain injury, how is it that our nature is eternal? 

There is obviously a disconnect between the physical brain and the spirit.

I have an arm and it can work properly according to the commands I send it.  OR it can jerk around uncontrollably, OR it can be nonfunctional because of disease or an injury.  Same with the brain.  Normally the spirit coordinates functions with the brain and other parts of the neurological system, but an injury, disease, etc can cause dysfunctional behaviour, including personality changes.  

The Lord gives us weaknesses, and this could include dysfunctional personalities which are manifest here in mortality only but corrected in the resurrection.

Edited January 2, 2017 by cdowis

[The Nehor]

11 hours ago, theplains said:

Based on your use of "nature" and "eternal", how is Jesus the eternal God when the LDS Church teaches
Jesus was the first spirit child born to Heavenly Parents who became a god when he reached some level
of intelligence?

Thanks,
Jim

Is eternity just an endless timestream reaching forever forward and backwards or is it somehow out of what we perceive as time. If the latter one can both become a God and always be a God eternally.

Edited January 3, 2017 by The Nehor

[JLHPROF]

22 hours ago, theplains said:

Based on your use of "nature" and "eternal", how is Jesus the eternal God when the LDS Church teaches
Jesus was the first spirit child born to Heavenly Parents who became a god when he reached some level
of intelligence?

D&C 93: 29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

Abraham 3:22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;
23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.

We are all eternal, including Christ.  We have always existed as "intelligence or the light of truth".
To me this term "intelligence" implies "self-aware".  It is the most basic type of knowledge after all.
The organization of intelligences refers to what is colloquially known as our "spirit birth".  Some recent speculation has thought that eternal intelligences and pre-mortal spirits were one and the same and that there was no spirit birth, just an organization of families etc.  I have yet to be convinced of that theory.

Just because we go through stages of existence - eternally self-aware intelligences, spiritual bodies, physical bodies, resurrected bodies etc - doesn't impact the fact that all of us including Christ are eternal.  We exist in eternity - we are not temporary in nature.

[Gray]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

D&C 93: 29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

Abraham 3:22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;
23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.

We are all eternal, including Christ.  We have always existed as "intelligence or the light of truth".
To me this term "intelligence" implies "self-aware".  It is the most basic type of knowledge after all.
The organization of intelligences refers to what is colloquially known as our "spirit birth".  Some recent speculation has thought that eternal intelligences and pre-mortal spirits were one and the same and that there was no spirit birth, just an organization of families etc.  I have yet to be convinced of that theory.

Just because we go through stages of existence - eternally self-aware intelligences, spiritual bodies, physical bodies, resurrected bodies etc - doesn't impact the fact that all of us including Christ are eternal.  We exist in eternity - we are not temporary in nature.

I wonder if this is still doctrinal (ie still currently taught)? I don't ever hear this taught anymore, although as you note it's in several places in the scriptures. It's a fascinating doctrine, but perhaps doesn't mesh well with the idea of celestial families? 

Maybe it's still hiding in a manual somewhere. 

Edited January 3, 2017 by Gray

[theplains]

On 03/01/2017 at 0:38 PM, JLHPROF said:

Just because we go through stages of existence - eternally self-aware intelligences, spiritual bodies, physical bodies, resurrected bodies etc - doesn't impact the fact that all of us including Christ are eternal.

Based on this statement, it seems you believe Heavenly Father, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are not
eternally God.

Jim

[JLHPROF]

2 minutes ago, theplains said:

Based on this statement, it seems you believe Heavenly Father, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are not
eternally God.

Depends on your definitions of both God and Eternity.
But yes, to use your likely definitions I do not believe that.  I believe they progressed to the office of God through their obedience to law and that there was a time before that happened.

As I already said, they are as eternal as we are.

Edited January 4, 2017 by JLHPROF

[RevTestament]

On 1/2/2017 at 0:14 PM, theplains said:

Based on your use of "nature" and "eternal", how is Jesus the eternal God when the LDS Church teaches
Jesus was the first spirit child born to Heavenly Parents who became a god when he reached some level
of intelligence?

Thanks,
Jim

I would like for Athanasian Christians to explain how Jesus is "eternally begotten" when the scriptures say "This day I have begotten thee" and Hebrews 5 says that was an oath made to Him? If He was begotten on a specific day in time, how can He be "eternally begotten?"

[Nofear]

My take is perhaps a little bit different. Who we are is fundamentally "intelligence". This intelligence matter core is uncreate, indivisible, and unique. Upon that intelligent matter machines (bodies) are added to allow further actions. We are not, however, in any sense our physical body, nor our spirit body, nor the combination.

Or intelligent matter core works in conjunction with the bodies. It is quite possible the machine is not quite functional and ceases to hearken to the control center (i.e. our "intelligence"). It is a marvelous, nay miraculous, balancing act that our physical bodies function with our intelligence so as to allow us moral agency but also keep our bodies functioning despite an inexperienced, unpracticed control center. In my opinion, this is partly why age 8 is the beginning of accountability. Our intelligence needs time to adapt and learn to be a true moral agent. It is also possible the body can be "broken" such that substantive moral agency isn't possible.

There is more that could be said. But by identifying myself as being fundamentally an uncreate, unique... something, all manner of problems associated with the philosophy of identity (e.g. Ship of Theseus, Teleportation Cloning, etc.) are solved. My body could be completely destroyed and a new body and brain could be created for it and yet I would still be me. There would, of course, be differences in how me would manifest itself but such differences would ultimately be superficial. Incidentally, if one adopts this perspective it gives a new appreciation on the Atonement. In this framework the Atonement wouldn't just be about suffering for sin or pains and such but about being a power that allows the fundamental core of a person change -- a change that isn't possible to the intelligence in of itself.

Anyway, while what I said makes sense to me internally, it is likely I'm assuming context and parameters that another doesn't take for granted. So, perhaps much won't make sense. Nonetheless, I'd be happy to elaborate if desired. Just be careful to carefully state the axioms of one's position so as to avoid talking past each other.

 

[theplains]

23 hours ago, RevTestament said:

I would like for Athanasian Christians to explain how Jesus is "eternally begotten" when the scriptures say "This day I have begotten thee" and Hebrews 5 says that was an oath made to Him? If He was begotten on a specific day in time, how can He be "eternally begotten?"

What scripture says he was eternally begotten?

Thanks,
Jim

[RevTestament]

16 hours ago, theplains said:

What scripture says he was eternally begotten?

Thanks,
Jim

No scripture does. That is the issue with Christians trying to claim He has always been the Son since the beginning of time and is eternal in that sense. He has always existed, but according to scripture, he has not always been the Son. His begottenness is referenced in Acts 13, and Hebrews 5, and Hebrews 7 says He was made the Son by the oath of the Father. The Nicene Creed ignores these scriptures, and claims rather that He was begotten before all aeon or worlds/ages. That was the whole debate at the time between the eastern and western bishops. And BTW there were many more than the 300+ bishops which showed up at the Nicene Council. Most estimate the Roman Empire alone had 1200+ bishops. There were many more in the Persian East. Yet, Athanasian Christians choose to believe these ~325 bishops who showed up at Nicea to decide this issue for Christianity. What is especially ironic is that most Protestants, probably like yourself, claim there was no priesthood at the time, and therefore the bishops and priests which showed up at that council had no authority according to their beliefs... If I have that wrong, please correct me. Later, the wording became "eternally begotten" in the trinitarian doctrine.
 

Edited January 7, 2017 by RevTestament

[theplains]

8 hours ago, RevTestament said:

No scripture does. That is the issue with Christians trying to claim He has always been the Son since the beginning of time and is eternal in that sense. He has always existed, but according to scripture, he has not always been the Son.

It seems you also believe Jesus progressed into becoming a god ... some time after his 'future-mother' became the
exalted goddess known as Heavenly Mother.

Thanks,
Jim

[RevTestament]

13 hours ago, theplains said:

It seems you also believe Jesus progressed into becoming a god ... some time after his 'future-mother' became the
exalted goddess known as Heavenly Mother.

Thanks,
Jim

Don't put words in my mouth. He became the Son by the oath of God.

Hebrews 7:28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

Jesus was sent to the earth as the only begotten Son. Several scriptures confirm this. 

So since the beginning of this world, Gen 1, He has been YHWH Elohim with the Father. 

But according to Isaiah 9:6, He shall be called the Father. 

You obviously have a problem with progression, because of Athanasian Christianity. So you will have problems with scriptures such as Hebrews which say He was MADE perfect, and BECAME the author of our salvation.

 

Hebrews 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

 5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

 6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

So what name did He inherit? Is it progression to inherit a name? Will it be progression when He inherits the title of the Father? Will He still have His body as our Father? The scriptures are contrary to the doctrine of the Trinity which teaches that He is not the Father, will always be the Son, and is immutable, and therefore cannot ever be the Father...

Therefore, because Athanasian Christianity is contrary to His scriptures, He must destroy it, that scripture may be fulfilled, and that He may be glorified according to scripture:

Isaiah 60:

7 All the flocks of Kedar shall be gathered together unto thee, the rams of Nebaioth shall minister unto thee: they shall come up with acceptance on mine altar, and I will glorify the house of my glory.

 8 Who are these that fly as a cloud, and as the doves to their windows?

 9 Surely the isles shall wait for me, and the ships of Tarshish first, to bring thy sons from far, their silver and their gold with them, unto the name of the Lord thy God, and to the Holy One of Israel, because he hath glorified thee.

 10 And the sons of strangers shall build up thy walls, and their kings shall minister unto thee: for in my wrath I smote thee, but in my favour have I had mercy on thee.

 11 Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may bebrought.

 12 For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted.

 13 The glory of Lebanon shall come unto thee, the fir tree, the pine tree, and the box together, to beautify the place of my sanctuary; and I will make the place of my feet glorious.

Edited January 8, 2017 by RevTestament

[theplains]

On 08/01/2017 at 9:01 AM, RevTestament said:

Don't put words in my mouth. He became the Son by the oath of God.

According to Religion 430-431 - Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual, he was ranked as a god
when he reached some level of intelligence.

Thanks,
Jim

[RevTestament]

14 hours ago, theplains said:

According to Religion 430-431 - Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual, he was ranked as a god
when he reached some level of intelligence.

Thanks,
Jim

Religion 430-431 is not scripture. I don't always agree with every statement made by others in the church - including church presidents. I am dealing with you strictly on a scriptural basis, and showing you why Athanasian Christianity is wrong. My own church has yet to learn the oracles of God as well, but they can be found in the scriptures and in one of the last sermons given by Joseph Smith - the so-called King Follet discourse.

D & C 90:1 Thus saith the Lord, verily, verily I say unto you my son, thy sins are forgiven thee, according to thy petition, for thy prayers and the prayers of thy brethren have come up into my ears.

 2 Therefore, thou art blessed from henceforth that bear the keys of the kingdom given unto you; which kingdom is coming forth for the last time.

 3 Verily I say unto you, the keys of this kingdom shallnever be taken from you, while thou art in the world, neither in the world to come;

 4 Nevertheless, through you shall the oracles be given to another, yea, even unto the church.

What the scriptures indicate is that Jesus is our brother or "fellow" who was exalted because He chose righteousness. He was exalted to become our Savior, and sent to this world as the only begotten Son of the Father. But you will note that scripture indicates that all who are on this earth are children, for one of the titles of the Father is "Father of spirits." Whether His "intelligence" "increased" I really can't say, but He did gain experience and first-hand knowledge, so I would say that in scriptural terms his "intelligence" did increase. According to the scriptures the Father is "more intelligent" than all. We see that not even the Son knows all things, so does not "know" the mind of the Father in that sense. He knows what He has seen the Father do, and shows us, and what the Father has told Him, and tells us. Athanasian Christianity has yet to grasp this simple principle.