Avatar4321 Posted October 21, 2016 Posted October 21, 2016 Without getting any politics whatsoever, I was wondering if we could discuss reliable sources on the prophesy of the constitution hanging by a thread. I know many conflate this with the white horse prophecy but I'm interested in the constitution prophecy
thesometimesaint Posted October 21, 2016 Posted October 21, 2016 It is hard not to about it without getting into politics on this one. But suffice it to say the so called "White Horse Prophecy" was never accepted by the Church. We believe the US Constitution was written by men inspired by God. But as with anything that men have had any influence in it is not perfect and may in fact contain many errors.
JLHPROF Posted October 21, 2016 Posted October 21, 2016 1 hour ago, Avatar4321 said: Without getting any politics whatsoever, I was wondering if we could discuss reliable sources on the prophesy of the constitution hanging by a thread. Even this nation will be on the very verge of crumbling to pieces and tumbling to the ground, and when the Constitution is upon the brink of ruin, this people will be the staff upon which the nation shall lean, and they shall bear the Constitution away from the very verge of destruction. (Source: Joseph Smith Collection, LDS Church Historical Department. Joseph Smith on July 19, 1840.) 1
strappinglad Posted October 21, 2016 Posted October 21, 2016 Now, if we could just imagine a scenario in which such events might actually transpire. Hmmm... 1
waveslider Posted October 21, 2016 Posted October 21, 2016 12 minutes ago, strappinglad said: Now, if we could just imagine a scenario in which such events might actually transpire. Hmmm... No imagination necessary. I see it very plainly. 2
rongo Posted October 21, 2016 Posted October 21, 2016 (edited) It isn't necessary to even mention the White Horse Prophecy. The "hanging by a thread" statements are among the best attested and documented without the WHP. I have over 85 quotes from Journal of Discourses alone on this. Here are just a few (I don't want to post all the quotes from my self-made index here): Quote Joseph in his lifetime declared that the Elders of this Church should step forth at a particular time when the Constitution should be in danger, and rescue it, and save it . . . I believe he said something like this — that the time would come when the Constitution and the country would be in danger of an overthrow; and said he, if the Constitution be saved at all, it will be by the Elders of this Church. (Orson Hyde, January 3, 1858. Journal of Discourses 6:151) Quote Will the Constitution be destroyed? No: it will be held inviolate by this people; and, as Joseph Smith said, "The time will come when the destiny of the nation will hang upon a single thread. At that critical juncture, this people will step forth and save it from the threatened destruction." It will be so. (Brigham Young, July 4, 1854. Journal of Discourses 7:15) Quote Will the Gentiles help us, and care for us? Will they do us good? No. And I tell you further, Elders of Israel, that you do not know the day of your visitation, neither do you understand the signs of the times, for if you did you would be awake to these things. Every organization of our government, the best government in the world, is crumbling to pieces. Those who have it in their hands are the ones who are destroying it. How long will it be before the words of the prophet Joseph will be fulfilled? He said if the Constitution of the United States were saved at all it must be done by this people. It will not be many years before these words come to pass. (Brigham Young, April 8, 1868. Journal of Discourses 12:204) Quote Need we be surprised that they should trample under foot the Constitution of the United States? No; Joseph Smith told us that they would do it. Many around me here knew long ago that they would do this thing and further knew that the last people that should be found to rally around that sacred instrument and save it from the grasp of unrighteous men would be the Elders of Israel! (John Taylor, October 6th, 1879. Journal of Discourses 20:318) Quote It seems like a very strange thing to say, but on all proper occasions I say it with a great deal of pleasure, at home and from home, that I have been taught form early life that the day would come when republican institutions would be in danger in this nation and upon this continent, when, in fact, the republic would be so rent asunder by factions that there would be no stable government outside of the Latter-day Saints; and that it is their destiny as a people, to uphold constitutional government upon this land. Now, a great many people think this is a chimera of the brain; they think it folly to indulge in such an idea; but the day will come nevertheless. There are those in this congregation who will witness the time that the maintenance of true constitutional government upon this continent will be dependent upon this people, when it will have to be upheld by us. (George Q. Cannon, April 3, 1881. Journal of Discourses 23:122-123) The main points: 1) The Constitution will hang by a thread 2) If it is saved, it will be by the Church/elders of the Church (this is always conditional). 3) If the Constitution is not saved and crumbles, it will still be upheld by the Latter-day Saints, and when world and national government collapses, people will come to us, where the only stability and constitutional principles will be upheld. My personal belief is that the window for saving the Constitution was during the 60s to the 90s, and we missed the boat (Elder Benson's repeated pleas and warnings). It is now no longer "hanging by a thread," in my opinion (and hasn't been for some time) --- it is already demolished. We now can be blessed by upholding and insisting on constitutional principles as a people, and preparing ourselves for the times to come. I also don't understand the aversion to the White Horse Prophecy. It rings true, and is completely consistent with myriad other witnesses like the above, and many more (i.e., it is well attested that Joseph Smith said the "hanging by a thread" thing and the "saved by the Church/elders" clause). While its provenance through Theodore Turley is disputed, it seems clear to me that he said things very similar to it, and at least those things should be beyond doubt. What do people not like among the other things (e.g., the horses and modern nations and conditions)? Edited October 21, 2016 by rongo 3
rongo Posted October 21, 2016 Posted October 21, 2016 (edited) Oh --- and if this thread gets closed due to politics, is it possible to start a new category here for politics? Obviously, only those who want to participate would go there, so those who hate political discussions can't/shouldn't complain about the discussions. If the position of the board powers-that-be continues to be "absolutely not a whiff of a political discussion, ever, worlds without end" . . . that's kind of weird, isn't it? A lot of relevant LDS discussion is eliminated thereby --- some of it very good, too. C'mon, mods. The board isn't run by FAIR, and hasn't been for some time now. It's okay ---- there can be discussion that makes some people uncomfortable. And those people don't have to ever go to that category. Just a suggestion, as I'm sure this thread is going to get closed. Even though it's fine right now . . . Edited October 21, 2016 by rongo 1
Rivers Posted October 21, 2016 Posted October 21, 2016 The White Horse Prophecy is now being fulfilled before our very eyes. The White Horse is none other than.....Evan McMullen!! 1
thesometimesaint Posted October 21, 2016 Posted October 21, 2016 Men on White horse's scare me. They should scare you too.
Gray Posted October 21, 2016 Posted October 21, 2016 10 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: Men on White horse's scare me. They should scare you too. Indeed! 1
HappyJackWagon Posted October 21, 2016 Posted October 21, 2016 (edited) Quote Men on White horse's scare me. They should scare you too. White men on horses scare me too. Edited October 21, 2016 by HappyJackWagon 4
JLHPROF Posted October 21, 2016 Posted October 21, 2016 10 hours ago, rongo said: The main points: 1) The Constitution will hang by a thread 2) If it is saved, it will be by the Church/elders of the Church (this is always conditional). 3) If the Constitution is not saved and crumbles, it will still be upheld by the Latter-day Saints, and when world and national government collapses, people will come to us, where the only stability and constitutional principles will be upheld. # 3 is very good. I think it's important to recognize that just because the "Constitution" may be saved that has no direct meaning at all to whether the United States as a nation will be saved. D&C 87:6 And thus, with the sword and by bloodshed the inhabitants of the earth shall mourn; and with famine, and plague, and earthquake, and the thunder of heaven, and the fierce and vivid lightning also, shall the inhabitants of the earth be made to feel the wrath, and indignation, and chastening hand of an Almighty God, until the consumption decreed hath made a full end of all nations; What part of ALL NATIONS doesn't include the good old U.S.of A.? The principles of the Constitution may be saved because they are correct principles and so will be maintained as part of priesthood government. That doesn't mean the USA won't go down to destruction with every other world power.
Guest Posted October 21, 2016 Posted October 21, 2016 It matters not who said, and one does not need to be political...it is simple be ripped apart, no matter the party. Our faith teaches that it is an inspired document. The Declaration of Independence, "pure inspired scripture", and God di raise these great men up with the courage to point out that, "all men are created equal", and to ensure "freedom of speech" and "freedom of religion", and the "freedom to assemble peaceably". These three in the Bill of Rights made it possible for the coming forth of the restoration and our faith and religion. America set the standard for these things in most countries. Today our Gov't fears all of these, which is the nature of Gov't's who lust for power. Every Latter-day Saint will do well to read D&C 134, principles by which we are commanded to live and support our form of Gov't. Recently, I was talking to my daughter that I took an oath to "protect and defend the constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic". She replied, that was 40 years ago...my wife and I (as if we planed it) told her that it was an oath from which I can only be released upon my death. So for Latter-day Saints, speaking of and defending the Constitution is not political, it is Spiritual, and the affirmation of our faith. Always..."God Bless America". 1
Guest Posted October 21, 2016 Posted October 21, 2016 (edited) 3 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said: White men on horses scare me too. Crude. Edited October 21, 2016 by Bill "Papa" Lee Add to commet
Guest Posted October 21, 2016 Posted October 21, 2016 3 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said: White men on horses scare me too. I meant to add...hurts my eyes. Fet some close on guys...this is an attack on the senses, feel like washing my eyes out with acid!
Guest Posted October 21, 2016 Posted October 21, 2016 4 hours ago, Gray said: Indeed! Which of the four houseman is this...is it death? I forget what Revelation call all four.
carbon dioxide Posted October 21, 2016 Posted October 21, 2016 3 hours ago, JLHPROF said: # 3 is very good. I think it's important to recognize that just because the "Constitution" may be saved that has no direct meaning at all to whether the United States as a nation will be saved. D&C 87:6 And thus, with the sword and by bloodshed the inhabitants of the earth shall mourn; and with famine, and plague, and earthquake, and the thunder of heaven, and the fierce and vivid lightning also, shall the inhabitants of the earth be made to feel the wrath, and indignation, and chastening hand of an Almighty God, until the consumption decreed hath made a full end of all nations; What part of ALL NATIONS doesn't include the good old U.S.of A.? The principles of the Constitution may be saved because they are correct principles and so will be maintained as part of priesthood government. That doesn't mean the USA won't go down to destruction with every other world power. Yes. We should not confuse the Constitution with the USA. When the Constitution was written up and passed, much of what is modern America did not exist. There is no requirement in the Constitution for a 50 state union. It is possible that the US could break into many pieces with some parts completely rejecting the Constitution while other parts accepting it. The principles of the Constitution is what is important. Whether it involves a nation of 10, 50, or 500 states really does not matter. The USA can cease to exist as presently constituted and yet the Constitution itself can be preserved at least among groups of people who support it. 1
why me Posted October 21, 2016 Posted October 21, 2016 (edited) It seems that the DNC hired goons to disrupt trump rallies through active confrontations. We saw the damage in chicago, washington, nevada etc. All hired by the dnc to disrupt his rallies and blame him for it. This is a violation of the constitution. So, yes, it does seem that the constitution is under threat. One does not need to be protrump to see the problem. Edited October 21, 2016 by why me 1
The Nehor Posted October 21, 2016 Posted October 21, 2016 Perhaps if we build a big beautiful inpenetrable wall around the Constitution it can still be saved?
Calm Posted October 21, 2016 Posted October 21, 2016 16 hours ago, rongo said: C'mon, mods. The board isn't run by FAIR, and hasn't been for some time now. It's okay ---- there can be discussion that makes some people uncomfortable. That wasn't why political threads were closed in the past from what I recall, it was the incivility that started in them and then spread to the rest of the board and the tendency of some posters to equate political positions with devotion to the Church and thus render judgment on others....iow, mods kept having to step in because people wouldn't follow the board's rules when it got heated. Mods from what I have seen over the years tend to shut down or limit emotionally charged topics and thus needing moderation that generally involve lots and lots of repetition, which is the usual fare of politics. There are tons of boards that talk about politics. I don't see why the mods should be required to put in more time because people don't want to go elsewhere to find those conversations.
waveslider Posted October 21, 2016 Posted October 21, 2016 I think the biggest violation of the Constitution was when Obama signed the NDAA, for the fiscal year of 2012, into law. In sections 1021 and 1022 it allows for the suspension of all civil rights on anyone, including American citizens, based solely upon a suspicion of guilt. In other words it is completely legal to indefinitely detain, torture and even kill anyone, on the premise that they are guilty without any proof whatsoever..... No due process of law or Habeas Corpus, or anything..... Not even a phone call. P.S. the indefinite detention clauses are still 100% in effect as long as another law isn't passed to nullify it.
waveslider Posted October 21, 2016 Posted October 21, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said: Which of the four houseman is this...is it death? I forget what Revelation call all four. It looks like an artist's depiction of: "And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth." Revelation 6:8 Edited to add that there is also a white, red and black horse. FYI the white horse is described like this: "And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer." Revelation 6:2 Edited October 21, 2016 by waveslider wanted to add more thoughts
rongo Posted October 21, 2016 Posted October 21, 2016 20 minutes ago, Calm said: That wasn't why political threads were closed in the past from what I recall, it was the incivility that started in them and then spread to the rest of the board and the tendency of some posters to equate political positions with devotion to the Church and thus render judgment on others....iow, mods kept having to step in because people wouldn't follow the board's rules when it got heated. I think we've all seen mods shut down political threads that haven't even come close to becoming uncivil or out of hand. Mods from what I have seen over the years tend to shut down or limit emotionally charged topics and thus needing moderation that generally involve lots and lots of repetition, which is the usual fare of politics. I can see the need not to let political threads "take strength unto themselves," but the de facto policy here has been to quash them immediately, out of hand. I'm surprised that this one has stayed as long as it has. There are tons of boards that talk about politics. I don't see why the mods should be required to put in more time because people don't want to go elsewhere to find those conversations. Many people would like to talk about politics here, within an LDS framework and context. They don't want to do political discussions in the comments sections of online articles, facebook, etc. As long as participants know going in that political discussions tend to . . . turn political, and there is a folder for just that, those who are over-sensitive to that can simply not "go there." I would simply be happy if the mods weren't so trigger-happy with locking threads that have a political component to them, but are still "appropriate." 1
waveslider Posted October 21, 2016 Posted October 21, 2016 8 minutes ago, rongo said: Many people would like to talk about politics here, within an LDS framework and context. They don't want to do political discussions in the comments sections of online articles, facebook, etc. As long as participants know going in that political discussions tend to . . . turn political, and there is a folder for just that, those who are over-sensitive to that can simply not "go there." I would simply be happy if the mods weren't so trigger-happy with locking threads that have a political component to them, but are still "appropriate." I too would like this, but on the other hand I can see where there would be extra work for the mods. I'm rooting for it, but not holding my breath. Thanks for asking though, I know I wouldn't have ever asked.
strappinglad Posted October 21, 2016 Posted October 21, 2016 If the Church some day must protect the principles of the Constitution and people flow to this area of protection, that presupposes some form of militia / paramilitary force to maintain order and prevent being overrun by forces opposed to law. I wonder where that would come from.
Recommended Posts