BYU Employee Stats by Gender

[stemelbow]

6 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Can I get a reference this statement?  It hasn't been my experience.

Hey bluebell,

I think dan Peterson says it best:

Quote

In any case, it seems that many LDS women have made the decision not to pursue academic careers.  And, perhaps it might be argued, BYU has somehow helped to socialized them into that decision.  But I’m personally aware of no effort by BYU to block them from having such careers.

I think socializing women into the decision is a good way to put it.  I think BYU and the Church contributes to that, as expressed above. 

[ERMD]

12 hours ago, sunstoned said:

 Even today, the church actively discourages women from higher education.  

 

CFR

[bluebell]

55 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Hey bluebell,

I think dan Peterson says it best:

I think socializing women into the decision is a good way to put it.  I think BYU and the Church contributes to that, as expressed above. 

You think that the church has socialized women not to go to college?  As i said before that has not been my experience.  Every single girl that was active in church that i grew up with went to college and we were counseled to do so by our leaders.  I even know a two girls who's patriarchal blessings say they need to make sure they get a college degree.  

I think Dr. Peterson is talking about women choosing not to work outside the home in academic careers and not about going to college though.  If sunstoned claims are true and the church actively discourages women from higher education it should be very easy for him to provide a reference from the church supporting that statement of fact.

 

[Jeanne]

With all my heart, i hope those women who have obtained degrees in Universities..are using them..whether small families or not.  I can understand taking a few years off for small children..I loved this part of my life.  That being said..keep your keen minds and use them.  I was without a lot of education when I suddenly lost my husband.  I wish now that I had stayed in the workforce or at least started back up earlier.  But if a woman is lucky to afford an education..go for it and make the best of your personal and qualifying attributes because you never know....and it will make some women (not all) a better wife, mother and community/ward member.  Be proud!! 

[stemelbow]

6 minutes ago, bluebell said:

You think that the church has socialized women not to go to college?  As i said before that has not been my experience.  Every single girl that was active in church that i grew up with went to college and we were counseled to do so by our leaders.  I even know a two girls who's patriarchal blessings say they need to make sure they get a college degree.  

I think Dr. Peterson is talking about women choosing not to work outside the home in academic careers and not about going to college though.  If sunstoned claims are true and the church actively discourages women from higher education it should be very easy for him to provide a reference from the church supporting that statement of fact.

 

Fair enough.  I think college is often put aside by women, or historical has been, in the Church.  But I think clearly the Church is trying to be more and more clear that women should seek higher education.  I will add, though, telling women their best job is done in the home and encouraging stay at home moms (which is a cultural expectation in the Church quite often) is a bit of a socializing into not furthering education anyway.  I know my wife who works part time from home is told often and made to feel often from other women, that she isn't doing her job as a mother.  But, that'd going away because she's thinking of going full time for work as it makes her feel better anyway.  I think someone posted something above that showed Utah has the lowest percent of women finishing school or is among the lowest. If so, that'd equally be a shame. 

[hope_for_things]

22 hours ago, bsjkki said:

I was surprised no one else has brought this up so, I thought, why not?  It's an interesting debate point.  Michael Austin over at By Common Consent wrote this blog post.  https://bycommonconsent.com/2016/09/16/not-even-close-faculty-gender-balance-at-the-byus/

In it he discusses BYU's employee statistics analyzed by gender.  For tenured professors it's an 80 percent men to 20 percent women ratio?  But for service/support and adjunct faculty positions it is 67 percent female.  The comments are very interesting and have a lot of anecdotal information.

Just 3 short years ago BYU puts it first female professor with young children on a tenure track.  The policies of BYU are partly to blame for these abysmal statistics.  

http://archive.sltrib.com/story.php?ref=/sltrib/blogsfaithblog/56789850-180/byu-married-hudson-mormon.html.csp

The other thing to blame is the rhetoric of church leadership over the years.  I remember talks by Benson and Kimball during my childhood, emphasizing a Woman's place in the home.  I remember negative stigmas towards working women in my ward growing up.  I have a close family member female who is the bread winner and her husband has been a stay at home parent at times.  Both of them have seen and continue to have people look down on them in their church community for these choices.  Although things are getting better in our culture, there is still this concept of the "ideal family" that is talked about, and unfortunately anything different if often looked down on.  

[Jeanne]

6 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Just 3 short years ago BYU puts it first female professor with young children on a tenure track.  The policies of BYU are partly to blame for these abysmal statistics.  

http://archive.sltrib.com/story.php?ref=/sltrib/blogsfaithblog/56789850-180/byu-married-hudson-mormon.html.csp

The other thing to blame is the rhetoric of church leadership over the years.  I remember talks by Benson and Kimball during my childhood, emphasizing a Woman's place in the home.  I remember negative stigmas towards working women in my ward growing up.  I have a close family member female who is the bread winner and her husband has been a stay at home parent at times.  Both of them have seen and continue to have people look down on them in their church community for these choices.  Although things are getting better in our culture, there is still this concept of the "ideal family" that is talked about, and unfortunately anything different if often looked down on.  

I remember this too.  Those talks and how my mother was kind of looked down upon working a part time job that gave us kids lunch money. 

[Rain]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

Can I get a reference this statement?  It hasn't been my experience.

Yes, I wondered about that too. 

[bluebell]

48 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Fair enough.  I think college is often put aside by women, or historical has been, in the Church.  But I think clearly the Church is trying to be more and more clear that women should seek higher education.  I will add, though, telling women their best job is done in the home and encouraging stay at home moms (which is a cultural expectation in the Church quite often) is a bit of a socializing into not furthering education anyway.  I know my wife who works part time from home is told often and made to feel often from other women, that she isn't doing her job as a mother.  But, that'd going away because she's thinking of going full time for work as it makes her feel better anyway.  I think someone posted something above that showed Utah has the lowest percent of women finishing school or is among the lowest. If so, that'd equally be a shame. 

That is really too bad. I hope she tells them to mind their own business because if any woman came up to me and told me that i wasn't doing my job as a mother her and i would no longer be on speaking terms. 

I've been a member of wards in Montana, Wyoming, North Dakota, and now Layton Utah and in each one we had more working mothers than stay at home moms and they were very supported.  Even in my layton ward we have more working moms and our lesson two weeks ago on the home and family the point was specifically made that women do what they need to do that is best for their families and no sister should feel bad about working.

Sounds like your ward needs work on that.

[stemelbow]

8 minutes ago, bluebell said:

That is really too bad. I hope she tells them to mind their own business because if any woman came up to me and told me that i wasn't doing my job as a mother her and i would no longer be on speaking terms. 

My wife loves the ladies in the ward and would probably never put them on no speaking terms status no matter how harsh their opinions come off (even though some of them do it to each other for rather petty things).  They don't say explicitly that she's not doing her job as a mother.  These are all women who never finished college and got married before they would have.  She has degrees and loves to work with grownups as a change of pace.  But they offer subtle judgmental comments that, again, make her feel like she's not doing her job as a mother.  One get's pretty explicit and says things like, "well I'm a real stay at home mom" because she doesn't have a job at all in contrast to my wife who works from home. 
it's not nice, but she and I agree, it's more to do with their self-righteousness and perhaps even ignorance than a factor of anything else.  You have to accept people for who they are sometimes, and not treat people or see people as enemies. 

Quote

I've been a member of wards in Montana, Wyoming, North Dakota, and now Layton Utah and in each one we had more working mothers than stay at home moms and they were very supported.  Even in my layton ward we have more working moms and our lesson two weeks ago on the home and family the point was specifically made that women do what they need to do that is best for their families and no sister should feel bad about working.

Sounds like your ward needs work on that.

That's nice. 

Edited September 19, 2016 by stemelbow

[hope_for_things]

46 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I remember this too.  Those talks and how my mother was kind of looked down upon working a part time job that gave us kids lunch money. 

I would like to think that the culture looks down on this less today than when we were growing up.  

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, hope_for_things said:

Just 3 short years ago BYU puts it first female professor with young children on a tenure track.  The policies of BYU are partly to blame for these abysmal statistics.  

http://archive.sltrib.com/story.php?ref=/sltrib/blogsfaithblog/56789850-180/byu-married-hudson-mormon.html.csp

The other thing to blame is the rhetoric of church leadership over the years.  I remember talks by Benson and Kimball during my childhood, emphasizing a Woman's place in the home.  I remember negative stigmas towards working women in my ward growing up.  I have a close family member female who is the bread winner and her husband has been a stay at home parent at times.  Both of them have seen and continue to have people look down on them in their church community for these choices.  Although things are getting better in our culture, there is still this concept of the "ideal family" that is talked about, and unfortunately anything different if often looked down on.  

Oh boy, do I remember the talks!

But will admit, I like the thought that the mother is there for her child/children during the day too or whenever. Or someone who is caring for a child needs to be the right person. 

This happened the other day and it freaked me out that a caretaker could do this. http://fox13now.com/2016/09/09/toddler-dies-at-west-jordan-daycare-after-employee-sits-on-bean-bag-chair-with-boy-underneath/

So things like this have me worried. I'm totally on the fence about motherhood and a career, hopefully I don't add to the problem and there are more answers, maybe society needs to shorten work days and have more family friendly schedules and more postpartum days off, etc. 

I do hear more often, that men are staying home with the children also, and this shouldn't ever be stigmatized.

 

Edited September 19, 2016 by Tacenda

[Jeanne]

28 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

I would like to think that the culture looks down on this less today than when we were growing up.  

I believe it has changed a lot.  It is no longer easy to support families with one income..I think church authorities realize this now.  I am just glad now that some women are waiting a bit to jump into marriage.  Get a degree..work a little then make a plan.  At least..I hope so! In my family..Mom worked part time and we kids cleaned a school house to make house payments..nothing wrong with that..Times have changed and one pretty much has to have a couple of incomes..  Money aside, If I had  a degree in anything..I would not waste that. 

Edited September 19, 2016 by Jeanne

[bsjkki]

This quote from Peterson's article is missing a crucial point.  (I know, I shouldn't argue--I'm no scholar.)

"Some, obviously, will see that as very bad.  As a problem that needs to be fixed.  And it’s presumably true that, all else being equal, it would be better to have more female professors of sociology, molecular biology, accounting, and chemical engineering at BYU.  But all else wouldn’t be equal:  It’s not obvious that having fewer full time mothers in Mormon homes would be an improvement, but that would be, by definition, the inevitable result of having more women on the faculties in Provo, Rexburg, and Laie."

The other statistics at BYU show the women are working.  A lot of mothers are working because they have to.  Sixty-seven percent of the support staff at BYU are women. They are working at BYU in less well payed positions.  If a woman must work, it would be better for her to have her education and not be trapped in lower paying positions.  I dropped out of BYU with 20 credits left because I was so sick when I became pregnant with my first child.  I do not regret having my children and being a stay-at-home mom but if something happened to my spouse, and we've had some health scares, I would be in a terrible situation.  Most of the women in my ward work full time and they work in occupations that pay much less than the men in the ward. 

Edited September 19, 2016 by bsjkki

[hope_for_things]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Oh boy, do I remember the talks!

But will admit, I like the thought that the mother is there for her child/children during the day too or whenever. Or someone who is caring for a child needs to be the right person. 

This happened the other day and it freaked me out that a caretaker could do this. http://fox13now.com/2016/09/09/toddler-dies-at-west-jordan-daycare-after-employee-sits-on-bean-bag-chair-with-boy-underneath/

So things like this have me worried. I'm totally on the fence about motherhood and a career, hopefully I don't add to the problem and there are more answers, maybe society needs to shorten work days and have more family friendly schedules and more postpartum days off, etc. 

I do hear more often, that men are staying home with the children also, and this shouldn't ever be stigmatized.

 

Thanks Tacenda.  I agree with you that a mother who sacrifices career to raise her children is something to be respected, my wife does this, and my mother did as well.  I honor their commitments.  Its just that patriarchal leaders have taken this honoring of sacrifice much too far in my opinion.  Its a personal application, not a universal one.  And to speak for God in a leadership position and to proclaim things about how God feels about this matter that are only extensions of tradition and culture, seems irresponsible and damaging to me.  

[Calm]

Which would seem a good reason to have a variety of teachers available.

11 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

More importantly, I reject the idea that I can only learn from those who look like me, talk like me, and are of the same gender.  Some of my very best role models have been people who are different than me and not of the same gender.

[Rain]

14 hours ago, stemelbow said:

My wife loves the ladies in the ward and would probably never put them on no speaking terms status no matter how harsh their opinions come off (even though some of them do it to each other for rather petty things).  They don't say explicitly that she's not doing her job as a mother.  These are all women who never finished college and got married before they would have.  She has degrees and loves to work with grownups as a change of pace.  But they offer subtle judgmental comments that, again, make her feel like she's not doing her job as a mother.  One get's pretty explicit and says things like, "well I'm a real stay at home mom" because she doesn't have a job at all in contrast to my wife who works from home. 
it's not nice, but she and I agree, it's more to do with their self-righteousness and perhaps even ignorance than a factor of anything else.  You have to accept people for who they are sometimes, and not treat people or see people as enemies. 

That's nice. 

It's quite possible that rather than self righteousness, the woman felt defensive. I know for years I did. After hearing, "I do everything a SAHM mom does and more" you start to feel defensive even when a friend just talks about her work. It wasn't till someone on a message board said, "I am at SAHW because my husband and I like that I can do all the house stuff during the day and we can relax in the evening" and another woman said she just responds, "yes I am" when people accused her of being lucky to stay at home that I realized I didn't have to feel defensive if I was where the Lord would have me.  

14 hours ago, Jeanne said:

I believe it has changed a lot.  It is no longer easy to support families with one income..I think church authorities realize this now.  I am just glad now that some women are waiting a bit to jump into marriage.  Get a degree..work a little then make a plan.  At least..I hope so! In my family..Mom worked part time and we kids cleaned a school house to make house payments..nothing wrong with that..Times have changed and one pretty much has to have a couple of incomes..  Money aside, If I had  a degree in anything..I would not waste that. 

I actually don't think it has changed that much.  People have just been told that enough that most believe it.  

It wasn't easy for your mom and my mom who both worked at least part time.  Nor for many of my friend's moms. 

And anymore I don't see more women working for necessities like mom did. I see about the same amount working for food, shelter etc. as I saw then. What makes it seem harder is there are now moms working for cell phone plans, TV, gym memberships, 10 million kids activities, travel etc.on top of the necessities moms. (We are only speaking of economics here, not fulfillment, talents etc.)

I have a degree. I don't work,  but I've never felt it was wasted.  I find it funny that back when I was in school it was thought a well rounded education was good for a person. There was growth in it. Now days it seems that people think the only thing college is good for is a job.  

Edited September 20, 2016 by Rain

[Bernard Gui]

14 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

Just 3 short years ago BYU puts it first female professor with young children on a tenure track.  The policies of BYU are partly to blame for these abysmal statistics.  

http://archive.sltrib.com/story.php?ref=/sltrib/blogsfaithblog/56789850-180/byu-married-hudson-mormon.html.csp

The other thing to blame is the rhetoric of church leadership over the years.  I remember talks by Benson and Kimball during my childhood, emphasizing a Woman's place in the home.  I remember negative stigmas towards working women in my ward growing up.  I have a close family member female who is the bread winner and her husband has been a stay at home parent at times.  Both of them have seen and continue to have people look down on them in their church community for these choices.  Although things are getting better in our culture, there is still this concept of the "ideal family" that is talked about, and unfortunately anything different if often looked down on.  

It is unfair to "blame the rhetoric of church leadership." They were defending the best practices for raising children at the time, and IMO, now. Expectations of parental responsibility have changed, with more of that responsibility being shifted to the community, the schools, and law enforcement.  In the vast majority of cases, the mother provides better care and nurturing in early childhood than the father. Ask any working mother if it was pleasant the first time she dropped off her toddler at day care to be watched over and taught by strangers.

Edited September 20, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

12 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

I would like to think that the culture looks down on this less today than when we were growing up.  

Actually, our culture now praises the working mom and looks down at the stay-at-home mom. Curiously, it recognizes the value of staying at home when imposes rules and regulations so the working-mom can stay at home longer....but only for a little while.

I'm reminded of the teacher at our school who brought her toddle into the office each morning that her partner had something else to do, and let him wander around under the supervision of the office staff, proving once and for all that you can have your cake and eat it.
 

Edited September 20, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

A very close relative applied for a professorship at BYU a while back. He has a Doctorate from a top-tier university, several years of professional experience that apply directly to the position, and is tenured in an identical position at another university. He was in the final 2, but was passed over for a woman fresh out of a lesser grad school who was still working to finish her degree and had no professional experience. We reckon it was a financial decision or maybe a quota to fill. No reason was given for the rejection. Asi´ es la vida. I know this is anecdotal, but it somewhat contradicts the narrative here.

[cacheman]

3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

A very close relative applied for a professorship at BYU a while back. He has a Doctorate from a top-tier university, several years of professional experience that apply directly to the position, and is tenured in an identical position at another university. He was in the final 2, but was passed over for a woman fresh out of a lesser grad school who was still working to finish her degree and had no professional experience. We reckon it was a financial decision or maybe a quota to fill. No reason was given for the rejection. Asi´ es la vida. I know this is anecdotal, but it somewhat contradicts the narrative here.

I've served on a number of search committees and am currently chairing a search.  We've always looked for qualified people who are the best fit for our department's needs. Often, superstars in their respective field are passed over because there's someone else that is a better fit. Every bit of rationale in our decision process is documented and passed up the chain. I've never heard anything from administrators or hr regarding salaries or quotas. We never provide the reasons for not hiring unsuccessful candidates to the candidates themselves. This is standard practice in my experience.

Why would you assume that she was selected based on financial decisions or a quota?  That would seem strange to me, but I know little about BYU's hiring practices.

[hope_for_things]

7 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

It is unfair to "blame the rhetoric of church leadership." They were defending the best practices for raising children at the time, and IMO, now. Expectations of parental responsibility have changed, with more of that responsibility being shifted to the community, the schools, and law enforcement.  In the vast majority of cases, the mother provides better care and nurturing in early childhood than the father. Ask any working mother if it was pleasant the first time she dropped off her toddler at day care to be watched over and taught by strangers.

When I said blame, I was speaking about cause and effect.  Church leaders strongly encouraged this behavior and members followed.  Yes, their intentions were noble, but that doesn't change the fact that their rhetoric directly impacted the behavior members of the church.

I would challenge your assertion that the mother provides better care and nurturing in early childhood than the father.  Do you have any data to back up this claim? 

[stemelbow]

8 hours ago, Rain said:

It's quite possible that rather than self righteousness, the woman felt defensive. I know for years I did. After hearing, "I do everything a SAHM mom does and more" you start to feel defensive even when a friend just talks about her work. It wasn't till someone on a message board said, "I am at SAHW because my husband and I like that I can do all the house stuff during the day and we can relax in the evening" and another woman said she just responds, "yes I am" when people accused her of being lucky to stay at home that I realized I didn't have to feel defensive if I was where the Lord would have me.

Obviously you have a completely different case on your hands.  I will drop it with glee after this, but to clarify.  My wife is sweet and charitable in conversation.  She doesn't hold much against people at all.  She'll go out of her way to make sure others are treated with respect in each conversation.  But this lady, on the other hand, has been unnecessarily rude, judgmental, and self-righteous in many conversations with not only my wife but many people.  I simply dont' see a necessary difference between self-righteous and defensive.  She could certainly be both. 

[Jeanne]

10 hours ago, Rain said:

It's quite possible that rather than self righteousness, the woman felt defensive. I know for years I did. After hearing, "I do everything a SAHM mom does and more" you start to feel defensive even when a friend just talks about her work. It wasn't till someone on a message board said, "I am at SAHW because my husband and I like that I can do all the house stuff during the day and we can relax in the evening" and another woman said she just responds, "yes I am" when people accused her of being lucky to stay at home that I realized I didn't have to feel defensive if I was where the Lord would have me.  

I actually don't think it has changed that much.  People have just been told that enough that most believe it.  

It wasn't easy for your mom and my mom who both worked at least part time.  Nor for many of my friend's moms. 

And anymore I don't see more women working for necessities like mom did. I see about the same amount working for food, shelter etc. as I saw then. What makes it seem harder is there are now moms working for cell phone plans, TV, gym memberships, 10 million kids activities, travel etc.on top of the necessities moms. (We are only speaking of economics here, not fulfillment, talents etc.)

I have a degree. I don't work,  but I've never felt it was wasted.  I find it funny that back when I was in school it was thought a well rounded education was good for a person. There was growth in it. Now days it seems that people think the only thing college is good for is a job.  

I understand your point.  And being a mom is the most important job ever...if I had a degree, I would still stay at home but when they got older ..hit the job market for me.  It would have saved me a lot of worry when hubby passed away.  Your perspective is a good one.  Our priorities have changed in general life necessities.  I can't even imagine Mom with a gym card...even a library card!  But yeah..you are right.  I walk a lot and I see homes that have not only two vehicles but all the motorcycles..snowmobiles..trailers and you name it.  Nice that you have a degree...you will be comforted in knowing you have something to fall back on. 

[thesometimesaint]

On 9/19/2016 at 9:07 AM, stemelbow said:

Fair enough.  I think college is often put aside by women, or historical has been, in the Church.  But I think clearly the Church is trying to be more and more clear that women should seek higher education.  I will add, though, telling women their best job is done in the home and encouraging stay at home moms (which is a cultural expectation in the Church quite often) is a bit of a socializing into not furthering education anyway.  I know my wife who works part time from home is told often and made to feel often from other women, that she isn't doing her job as a mother.  But, that'd going away because she's thinking of going full time for work as it makes her feel better anyway.  I think someone posted something above that showed Utah has the lowest percent of women finishing school or is among the lowest. If so, that'd equally be a shame. 

No success in life can compensate for failure in the home applies to men and woman.

Utah isn't among that group.

SEE https://www.census.gov/population/www/cen2000/censusatlas/pdf/10_Education.pdf