BYU Employee Stats by Gender

[Sleeper Cell]

21 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

No success in life can compensate for failure in the home applies to men and woman.

True.  But if memory serves, wasn’t this a Pres. McKay quote from the 1950s that was primarily aimed at men -- specifically at those men who were putting  their careers ahead of their obligations to their families?   I believe that, at that time, most married women with children did not work full time, nor, if memory serves, was there much concern at the time that this would change.   

[bsjkki]

1 hour ago, Sleeper Cell said:

True.  But if memory serves, wasn’t this a Pres. McKay quote from the 1950s that was primarily aimed at men -- specifically at those men who were putting  their careers ahead of their obligations to their families?   I believe that, at that time, most married women with children did not work full time, nor, if memory serves, was there much concern at the time that this would change.   

Thank you for this history.  I had not known or thought about the audience Pres. McKay was addressing when he made this famous quote.  

1 hour ago, thesometimesaint said:

No success in life can compensate for failure in the home applies to men and woman.

What is your definition of failure in the home? 

[Tacenda]

Some quotes below that could have set up the mindset of some or most in the church. Still on the fence about it all. I watched two little girls for several years while their mother worked because she told me once she couldn't stay home. They had enough money and all. These two young girls grew up to be terrific young women, one completed an LDS mission. And the other married in the temple. So you just never know. I just always hope that if a woman chooses to work she's able to balance and make arrangements that will be safe for her children, and should have the help of her husband. I've heard or read statements from adults that went to daycare that they liked that their mothers had careers. 

Quotes from two prophets back in the day....

 . . I beg of you, you who could and should be bearing and rearing a family: Wives, come home from the typewriter, the laundry, the nursing, come home from the factory, the café. No career approaches in importance that of wife, homemaker, mother—cooking meals, washing dishes, making beds for one’s precious husband and children. Come home, wives, to your husbands. Make home a heaven for them. Come home wives, to your children, born and unborn. Wrap the motherly cloak about you and unembarrassed help in a major role to create the bodies for the immortal souls who anxiously wait. When you have fully complemented your husband in home life and borne the children, growing up full of faith, integrity, responsibility and goodness, then you have achieved your accomplishments supreme, without peer, and you will be the envy through time and eternity. Spencer W. Kimball

We have often said, This divine service of motherhood can be rendered only by mothers. It may not be passed to others. Nurses cannot do it; public nurseries cannot do it. Hired help cannot do it; kind relatives cannot do it. Only by mother, aided as much as may be by a loving father, brothers and sisters, and other relatives, can the full needed measure of watchful care be given. Spencer W. Kimball

and expect the wives to go out of the home and work, even though the husband is capable of providing for his family. In these cases, we urge the husband to do all in his power to allow his wife to remain in the home caring for the children while he continues to provide for his family the best he can, even though the job he is able to secure may not be ideal and family budgeting may have to be tighter. . . . Sometimes the mother works outside of the home at the encouragement, or even insistence, of her husband. It is he who wants the items or conveniences that the extra income can buy. Not only will the family suffer in such instances, brethren, but your own spiritual growth and progression will be hampered. I say to all of you, the Lord has charged men with the responsibility to provide for their families in such a way that the wife is allowed to fulfill her role as mother in the home. . . . One apparent impact of the women’s movement has been the feelings of discontent it has created among young women who have chosen the role of wife and mother. They are often made to feel that there are more exciting and self-fulfilling roles for women than housework, diaper changing, and children calling for mother. This view loses sight of the eternal perspective that God elected women to the noble role of mother and that exaltation is eternal fatherhood and eternal motherhood. Ezra Taft Benson

It is time that the hearts of us fathers be turned to our children and the hearts of the children be turned to us fathers, or we shall both be cursed. The seeds of divorce are often sown and the blessings of children delayed by wives working outside the home. Working mothers should remember that their children usually need more of mother than of money. Ezra Taft Benson

 

[Sleeper Cell]

On Sunday, September 18, 2016 at 5:05 PM, Calm said:

ell, back when I was in ?Electrical Engineering at the Y there were 4 females out of over 200 in the program.  I saw one of them once a week for a semester at a seminar.  I had problems because I lacked the technical background most of the guys seemed to have (I would help fellow students with their homework thinking it was mutual, but once they were done, they would take off and go home to their wives and kids while I would struggle with the stuff I was lost on by myself for a hour or two more.  And then walk home around 11 using the very well lit paths.  I eventually dropped out as not one teacher asked me how I was doing and I was too shy to step forward on my own and had no one who was willing to work with me....I can see it might be awkward telling your wife you were hanging out with an 18 year old girl, but somehow it was okay when I was helping with math or logic.

When I was an undergraduate, none of us physics students were married.  None of us guys had any problem staying up late helping our few female classmates, if for no other reason, it was pretty much the only way most of us could get “dates.”  (The “date” being the study session, itself.)   Being helped by our female classmates was pretty good also.  I only knew two cases where such “dates” actually led to something more romantic.  In one instance, a physics student eventually married a math student who was helping him.  In the other, a student started dating the teaching assistant who was involved with teaching the physics class he was taking at the time.  (She also graded his exams).  After a couple of months of this, some of us printed up and mailed out faux wedding announcements for the happy couple.   They were not too happy.  

But they had the last laugh.  They decided getting married was a good idea, especially when they realized that they could save the cost of wedding announcements by choosing the same date, time, and place that we selected for our faux announcements.  

But this was not BYU.  And you are right.  Mentoring is important, especially when you are struggling and discouraged -- a not uncommon occurrence among physics students.  Being able to get help from your classmates during late night (and even all night) study sessions is important.  And, frankly, I never considered the fact that most, if not all, male BYU physics students are likely to be married (to say nothing of the professors) -- hence, as a practical matter, not available to help female students. As much as I despise quotas, in general, I am now convinced that the BYU physics and engineering departments should do everything possible to hire a few qualified female professors and recruit more female students -- even if it means turning down more qualified male applicants.   

[Scott Lloyd]

3 hours ago, Sleeper Cell said:

True.  But if memory serves, wasn’t this a Pres. McKay quote from the 1950s that was primarily aimed at men -- specifically at those men who were putting  their careers ahead of their obligations to their families?   I believe that, at that time, most married women with children did not work full time, nor, if memory serves, was there much concern at the time that this would change.   

First, the statement did not originate with President McKay. When he first gave it -- in general conference of April 1935 -- he was quoting J. E. McCulloch from a book called Home: the Savior of Civilization. The full quote from McCulloch reads as follows:

Quote

The home is the first and most effective place for children to learn the lessons of life: truth, honor, virtue, self-control; the value of education, honest work, and the purpose and privilege of life. Nothing can take the place of home in rearing and teaching children, and no other success can compensate for failure in the home.

Second, President McKay alluded to the quote again at general conference of April 1964. This time, he said:

Quote

When one puts business or pleasure above his home, he that moment starts on the downgrade to soul-weakness. When the club becomes more attractive to any man than his home, it is time for him to confess in bitter shame that he has failed to measure up to the supreme opportunity of his life and flunked in the final test of true manhood. No other success can compensate for failure in the home. The poorest shack in which love prevails over a united family is of greater value to God and future humanity that any other riches. In such a home God can work miracles and will work miracles.

While this paragraph was arguably directed at men, the context of the entire portion of the address was to decry the increasing frequency of divorce in society and "the tendency to look upon marriage as a mere contract that may be severed at the first difficulty or misunderstanding that may arise."

President McKay said in that address that "Christ's ideal pertaining to marriage is the unbroken home, and conditions that cause divorce are violations of his divine teaching."
 

Quote

 

"Some of those conditions I name as unfaithfulness on the part of either the husband or wife, or both. ...

"Young people of both sexes should be taught the responsibilities and ideals of marriage so that they may realize that marriage involves obligation and is not an arrangement to be terminated at pleasure. They should be taught that pure love between the sexes is one of the noblest things on earth and the hearing and rearing or children the highest of all human duties. In this regard it is the duty of parents to set an example in the home that children may see and absorb the sacredness of family life and the responsibility associated therewith.

"The number of broken marriages can be reduced if couples realize even before they approach the altar that marriage is a state of mutual service, a state of giving as well as of receiving, and that each must give of himself or herself to the utmost.

"The most vicious enemy to home life is immorality."

 

 

Edited September 20, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[Rain]

3 hours ago, Jeanne said:

I understand your point.  And being a mom is the most important job ever...if I had a degree, I would still stay at home but when they got older ..hit the job market for me.  It would have saved me a lot of worry when hubby passed away.  Your perspective is a good one.  Our priorities have changed in general life necessities.  I can't even imagine Mom with a gym card...even a library card!  But yeah..you are right.  I walk a lot and I see homes that have not only two vehicles but all the motorcycles..snowmobiles..trailers and you name it.  Nice that you have a degree...you will be comforted in knowing you have something to fall back on. 

Oh, I have no comfort in that. It has been 23 years since I have worked outside the home and my degree was such that I planned on getting a master's degree before I could get a job in the field I wanted, but the timing has so far not been right. 

What I take more comfort in is enough insurance and volunteer experience that I have.

[Rain]

2 hours ago, Sleeper Cell said:

True.  But if memory serves, wasn’t this a Pres. McKay quote from the 1950s that was primarily aimed at men -- specifically at those men who were putting  their careers ahead of their obligations to their families?   I believe that, at that time, most married women with children did not work full time, nor, if memory serves, was there much concern at the time that this would change.   

Yes, careers and clubs.

[Rain]

46 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

First, the statement did not originate with President McKay. When he first gave it -- in general conference of April 1935 -- he was quoting J. E. McCulloch from a book called Home: the Savior of Civilization. The full quote from McCulloch reads as follows:

Second, President McKay alluded to the quote again at general conference of April 1964. This time, he said:

While this paragraph was arguably directed at men, the context of the entire portion of the address was to decry the increasing number of divorces in society and "the tendency to look upon marriage as a mere contract that may be severed at the first difficulty or misunderstanding that may arise."

President McKay said in that address that "Christ's ideal pertaining to marriage is the unbroken home, and conditions that cause divorce are violations of his divine teaching."
 

 

I found somewhere online awhile back that it may actually come even farther back than that book - there is a possible source from the 1800s. The blog I was reading at the time wasn't able to verify that though. 

Edited September 20, 2016 by Rain

[Sleeper Cell]

43 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

First, the statement did not originate with President McKay. When he first gave it -- in general conference of April 1935 -- he was quoting J. E. McCulloch from a book called Home: the Savior of Civilization. The full quote from McCulloch reads as follows:

Thanks for this and the other information you posted.

[Storm Rider]

19 hours ago, Calm said:

Which would seem a good reason to have a variety of teachers available.

No, I don't think variety serves any purpose.  The point is that we can learn from anyone we do not require someone that looks like us - gender, race, religion, etc. - to learn.  I don't require a male to demonstrate a specific trait in order to learn and I don't need a white person to be the professor in order to learn.  I require competent, skilled teachers to teach at school regardless of all of the personal traits people push to achieve a social nirvana that has nothing to do with reality. 

[Scott Lloyd]

47 minutes ago, Rain said:

Yes, careers and clubs.

See my post.

When President McKay made the statement in 1964 (and he didn't originate the "no other success" statement; he was quoting someone else), the paragraph in which the quote was included was directed at men, but the overall context of the message was to decry the increase of divorce in society, and he said both husbands and wives are responsible to avoid that.

[Scott Lloyd]

58 minutes ago, Rain said:

I found somewhere online awhile back that it may actually come even farther back than that book - there is a possible source from the 1800s. The blog I was reading at the time wasn't able to verify that though. 

That may well be.

[Calm]

 

3 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

No, I don't think variety serves any purpose.  The point is that we can learn from anyone we do not require someone that looks like us - gender, race, religion, etc. - to learn.  I don't require a male to demonstrate a specific trait in order to learn and I don't need a white person to be the professor in order to learn.  I require competent, skilled teachers to teach at school regardless of all of the personal traits people push to achieve a social nirvana that has nothing to do with reality. 

What I meant was being taught a variety of approaches will generally expand how we think about things, which can be very important in careers that need creative problem solving.

[Storm Rider]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

 

What I meant was being taught a variety of approaches will generally expand how we think about things, which can be very important in careers that need creative problem solving.

And that is why LDS, at least return missionaries that went to foreign cultures, are so valued in the corporate world.  They see things from a different culture.  I have never read anything that alleges that a gender has a unique view due solely to their gender.

This line of thinking - that a gender difference is absolutely essential in order to for students, corporations, governments, etc., to gain some new, elevated understanding - is pernicious and without merit.  Certainly people from different cultures can bring different perspectives that allow us to gain new perspectives, but a gender difference does not necessarily introduce a different perspective.  It only introduces a different gender. 

[BlueDreams]

On September 18, 2016 at 11:45 AM, bsjkki said:

One person discussed that certain companies find BYU students well educated but they have problems dealing with female bosses.  They are not equipped to deal with women authority figures or interact well with females.  Do any of you have experience with this?

Knowing these statistics, would it make you more or less likely to send your child BYU if they are female?  They will lack mentors and role members from their own gender.  Does this make a difference?  

first I wasn't ever in a male dominated field at BYU. Though my educators were still mostly male and a number of my favorite female faculty moved schools or retired while I was there (ex. Valerie Hudson). So though my fields may have had more professors than most, it still was mostly male professors. From what I heard in passing with the female faculty was there were definitely systemic problems or irritations that dealt with a system that has been all/mostly male for so long. Certain programs while I was there (or right after) that were women oriented got the shaft and were severely reduced or merged into other programs. And that's what I saw or heard in brief. Based on what I saw you'd also want to talk more to female faculty to get a picture of this. 

I do know of a sister in our YSA who is in a male-dominated science field. Her experience was mentioned briefly during church, but it reminded me of somebody the difficulties I've heard and experienced as a minority at BYU. So it is still difficult and female Mentors are definitely helpful. 

Would I send my proverbial daughter to BYU? Yes. At that point she will have probably dealt with being a minority for a while before then. It's not easy but it's doable. And I enjoyed my education. I would hope that, like me, she could find niches to have a break from being whatever form of outnumbered she's experiencing that's most poignant for her. During my undergrads that was a multicultural dance group. During my master's I purposely befriended the other female minority because I knew that this would be a new experience for her abd had voiced her concerns at the beginning of the program...and because we could air our concerns/frustrations with each other without having to explain them or take care of their reactions/hurt feels at the same time. 

With luv, 

BD

 

[thesometimesaint]

10 hours ago, Sleeper Cell said:

True.  But if memory serves, wasn’t this a Pres. McKay quote from the 1950s that was primarily aimed at men -- specifically at those men who were putting  their careers ahead of their obligations to their families?   I believe that, at that time, most married women with children did not work full time, nor, if memory serves, was there much concern at the time that this would change.   

True.

[thesometimesaint]

9 hours ago, bsjkki said:

Thank you for this history.  I had not known or thought about the audience Pres. McKay was addressing when he made this famous quote.  

What is your definition of failure in the home? 

When they are not one.

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

 I have never read anything that alleges that a gender has a unique view due solely to their gender. 

Brain functions generally differently for men and women, women generally use different verbal expressions, use different problem solving approaches, tend to be more often multitaskers than men, iirc....does this make clear enough what I am talking about?  While a specific female or male may not be that different from the opposite sex norm, one is more likely to get the difference choosing from the opposite sex than depending on the chance that one will find a significant difference by limiting the pool to one sex.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/hope-relationships/201402/brain-differences-between-genders

Are you suggesting that the only difference between men and women are physical and have no impact on perception or expression?

why do we think it is so important to have both a father and a mother in a home and if that is not possible some form of role model/authority figures of both sexes for children if there is no difference in viewpoints?

Edited September 21, 2016 by Calm

[mong00se]

I think the gender imbalance is a big problem.  I work in Finance at a fortune 50 company in Dallas, and just today we had BYU finance majors come into town for company visits.  They were visiting 5-6 different companies today and tomorrow as a networking initiative, with the goal of eventually lining up internships.  

It was a big group: 25 students and a few faculty members. I (as a BYU alum) was one of the oragnizer/hosts for my company.  It was frustrating to see that there was not a single female student among them.  Literally all 25 students were males.  The only female in the room was one of the faculty (from the career development office, not a professor).  

We had a great panel lined up with several vice presidents and executives.   The company I work for is big on diversity and inclusion and this just made BYU look bad.  One of the VPs even made an off-hand comment about it, I don't think the students noticed, but I could tell she was confused by imbalance.

The fact is, BYU does not cater to or facilitate women in business/leadership.  The Marriott school is one of BYU's best programs but there is a big problem, either systemic or cultural, that keeps women largely out of the program.  I think this is part of the bigger issue within the church that leads to the skewed hiring decisions for professors.  

[Jeanne]

42 minutes ago, mong00se said:

I think the gender imbalance is a big problem.  I work in Finance at a fortune 50 company in Dallas, and just today we had BYU finance majors come into town for company visits.  They were visiting 5-6 different companies today and tomorrow as a networking initiative, with the goal of eventually lining up internships.  

It was a big group: 25 students and a few faculty members. I (as a BYU alum) was one of the oragnizer/hosts for my company.  It was frustrating to see that there was not a single female student among them.  Literally all 25 students were males.  The only female in the room was one of the faculty (from the career development office, not a professor).  

We had a great panel lined up with several vice presidents and executives.   The company I work for is big on diversity and inclusion and this just made BYU look bad.  One of the VPs eI U does not cater to or facilitate women in business/leadership.  The Marriott school is one of BYU's best programs but there is a big problem, either systemic or cultural, that keeps women largely out of the program.  I think this is part of the bigger issue within the church that leads to the skewed hiring decisions for professors.  

I am sorry to hear about this. I know women who are very keen in the finance world and so this positively astounds me.  I thought we lived in a different world now..this is sad!

[bsjkki]

42 minutes ago, mong00se said:

I think the gender imbalance is a big problem.  I work in Finance at a fortune 50 company in Dallas, and just today we had BYU finance majors come into town for company visits.  They were visiting 5-6 different companies today and tomorrow as a networking initiative, with the goal of eventually lining up internships.  

It was a big group: 25 students and a few faculty members. I (as a BYU alum) was one of the oragnizer/hosts for my company.  It was frustrating to see that there was not a single female student among them.  Literally all 25 students were males.  The only female in the room was one of the faculty (from the career development office, not a professor).  

We had a great panel lined up with several vice presidents and executives.   The company I work for is big on diversity and inclusion and this just made BYU look bad.  One of the VPs even made an off-hand comment about it, I don't think the students noticed, but I could tell she was confused by imbalance.

The fact is, BYU does not cater to or facilitate women in business/leadership.  The Marriott school is one of BYU's best programs but there is a big problem, either systemic or cultural, that keeps women largely out of the program.  I think this is part of the bigger issue within the church that leads to the skewed hiring decisions for professors.  

The cultural and systemic problem with gender imbalance is my concern.  The Marriott School is highly competitive.  Do they encourage women to apply or are women passed over due to their education not being viewed as important as their male counterparts?  I found the statistics on the student body of the Marriott School of Management.  Women are under represented but minorities are even more under represented.  http://business-schools.startclass.com/l/398/Brigham-Young-University-Marriott-UT  

[bsjkki]

I think the Marriot School must be trying.  I found this interesting article about new hirers.  Four out of the nine are women.  https://marriottschool.byu.edu/news/article?id=1168  I'm not educated on what is a tenure position or not but this must be a good sign.

Edited September 22, 2016 by bsjkki
I should go back to grammar school

[mong00se]

Just now, bsjkki said:

The cultural and systemic problem with gender imbalance is my concern.  The Marriott School is highly competitive.  Do they encourage women to apply or are women passed over due to their education not being viewed as important as their male counterparts?  I found the statistics on the student body of the Marriott School of Management.  Women are under represented but minorities are even more under represented.  http://business-schools.startclass.com/l/398/Brigham-Young-University-Marriott-UT  

Agreed, I don't know what the root of the problem is but it is certainly a problem.  What you are referencing there is the MBA class, we had BBAs come today, though I imagine the Male/Female ratio in the undergrad program is pretty similar.  Hopefully awareness can be built around this to start to make change.  Seeing these stats and reading the article referenced by the OP doesn't feel good.  

[bsjkki]

More stats on the undergraduate programs--click on degree and you can see the stats. https://marriottschool.byu.edu/recruiter/profiles/placement 

Undergrad finance is only 10 percent female.

Edited September 22, 2016 by bsjkki
fixed link--now all majors are listed on left

[BlueDreams]

7 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

The cultural and systemic problem with gender imbalance is my concern.  The Marriott School is highly competitive.  Do they encourage women to apply or are women passed over due to their education not being viewed as important as their male counterparts?  I found the statistics on the student body of the Marriott School of Management.  Women are under represented but minorities are even more under represented.  http://business-schools.startclass.com/l/398/Brigham-Young-University-Marriott-UT  

Minorities in general are underrepresented at BYU, even if looked at from surrounding comparable schools in the Mountainwest. Just saying. 

 

With luv,

BD