halconero Posted August 17, 2016 Posted August 17, 2016 10 minutes ago, Mormoniscancer said: Jesus used a work Agape for love as there as not literal English translation for Love that we know it today, Not in Modern English. 500 years ago faith, love, or piety would have been fine translations. Nowadays not so much. Good thing I can read Koine Greek and understand its relationship to Pistis, Client-Patron Relationships, and Covenantal Love.
Rain Posted August 17, 2016 Posted August 17, 2016 37 minutes ago, Mormoniscancer said: this is absolutely ridiculous . Is this a serious question? jesus came to abolish and fullfil the laws of the prophets, thus you only need to believe that jesus christ died for your sins. Saved by grace through faith... period. Being a Christian is not work based. Living as Jesus did does allow you to live a much fuller life but your salvation is not in any way jeopardized. Mormons i pray you all see the light and the truth. Pray for the holy spirit to convict you and become born again with the blood of jesus and not fake prophets like J.S. The question was not asked by someone who believes in our faith. So if you are taking it from a LDS believing point of view you may want to change your understanding of why the question was asked.
Gray Posted August 17, 2016 Posted August 17, 2016 31 minutes ago, Mormoniscancer said: you quote JS like that part matters. Matt 22. love the lord and love your neighbbor. What the " prophet " JS said is irrelevant What's with the awful user name?
Storm Rider Posted August 17, 2016 Posted August 17, 2016 20 minutes ago, Mormoniscancer said: GOD gave the Jews laws. jesus fulfilled the laws, thus abolishing them. Jesus gave the commandment to Love This is a rather old argument based on excluding a great deal of the New Testament. When Jesus said, If ye love me keep my commandments. Which commandments - that is plural - was Jesus talking about? Do we need to love God? Can we love God and ignore his commandments? That faith and works discussion is great when you take statements out of context, ignore a lot of other scripture, and emphasize just a small part of scripture. Works do not save, the Grace of Jesus Christ saves. However, to follow after Christ is to seek after righteousness. When Jesus said, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in Heaven is perfect" (in Matt 5:48) what do you think he was talking about? Jesus said in Matt 7:21-23 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. This passage begins to encompass the answer to your position on faith and works. We cannot just speak his know, know his name to be saved. If that were so then even the demons would be saved (James 2:19). Jesus taught we must "do" if we are to follow him. Without the doing part he will look at us and tell us that he never knew us and to leave him. Yes, I too wish that you Evangelicals would listen to the Holy Spirit so that you might know truth; that you might read scripture fully, completely, and know the Gospel of Jesus Christ in order that you might actually know Jesus rather than just repeat his name vainly and without knowledge or understanding.
Johnnie Cake Posted August 17, 2016 Posted August 17, 2016 (edited) There is NOTHING inherently evil, wicked or harmful about coffee. It only becomes so when religion puts a mark of evil on something so enjoyable as coffee. Most if not all of the founding men of Mormonism, Joseph included drank coffee, Coffee was on the list of essential items our pioneer forefathers were instructed to bring with them on their trek from Nauvoo across the plains, Coffee was served in the Hotel Utah a church run establishment, it was served in the SL Temple cafeteria and church administration building board rooms through the 19-teen hundreds. Members of the 12 promoted its exclusion from consideration in the WoW. When banned many continued to drink it and those that abstained lamented its demise (I have no CFRs for any of the above claims...so don't ask...most are common knowledge but may be a surprise to some..still a simple google search will confirm most of these claims) It was Heber C. Grant who ignored the minority of the 12 who wanted to exclude coffee. He alone turn a enjoyable social drink into the piranha that it is seen as in the Mormon community today. And finally it warms my heart to see so many Starbucks and independent coffee houses pop up along the Wasatch front...it appears that the Rio Negro is having its impact on the Amazon...and that's a good thing... Edited August 17, 2016 by Johnnie Cake
Guest Posted August 17, 2016 Posted August 17, 2016 9 hours ago, sunstoned said: What commandment are you referencing? God gave the word of wisdom as "not by commandment". That is what is says in our canonized scriptures. Somewhere along the line men elevated it to a commandment. True enough it was a guideline, not a commandment. Does not change the fact that it is now, it is now a commandment.
thatjimguy Posted August 17, 2016 Posted August 17, 2016 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Mormoniscancer said: in regards to Matt7........ i struggle with this and this is a good topic to bring up and thank you. Doing this in his name because of routine, believing if you dont, that you are not truly doing gods work, ministering out of habit rather than doing it to show the love and the fruit of the spirit, doing godly works BUT not really having a personal relationship..... you are talking about getting your crowns and rewards in heaven from good works, not salvation. salvation is says Jesus is lord or lords and died for you. I think the difference here is the idea of exaltation and not salvation. Edited August 17, 2016 by thatjimguy 1
halconero Posted August 17, 2016 Posted August 17, 2016 1 hour ago, Mormoniscancer said: GOD gave the Jews laws. jesus fulfilled the laws, thus abolishing them. Jesus gave the commandment to Love Fulfilled Mosaic Laws without abolish moral commandments or ordinances. This is a repeated theme throughout the New Testament, both by Christ and the Apostles.
JLHPROF Posted August 17, 2016 Posted August 17, 2016 3 minutes ago, Mormoniscancer said: you are talking about getting your crowns and rewards in heaven from good works, not salvation. salvation is says Jesus is lord or lords and died for you. Salvation is a gift for accept Christ as Lord. The condition of our saved souls is a function of obedience to the laws of God.And Christ gave many commands - REPENTANCE - “From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand” (Matthew 4:17) MISSIONARY WORK -“Go ye therefore, and teach all nations . . . teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen” (Matthew 28:19–20) BAPTISM - “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost” (Matthew 28:19). PRAYER - “Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak” (Matthew 26:41). SACRAMENT - "And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: do this in remembrance of me. Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you." (Luke 22:19-20) FORGIVE OTHERS - "Jesus said to him, 'I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.'" (Matthew 18:21–22). RENDER UNTO CAESAR (PAY TAXES?) - "They said to Him, “Caesar’s.” Then He said to them, “Then render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s; and to God the things that are God’s." (Matthew 22:21). WASH ONE ANOTHER'S FEET. - "If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet." (John 13:14) KEEP THESE COMMANDMENTS - “If ye love me, keep my commandments” (John 14:15). 1
JLHPROF Posted August 17, 2016 Posted August 17, 2016 7 minutes ago, Mormoniscancer said: salvation is not conditional. We all fall short to the grace of God. That's why when we sin, screw up or otherwise, we are covered in gods grace and mercy. Salvation is not taken away. John 10 27-29 My sheep listen to My voice; I know them, and they follow Me. 28I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them out ofMy hand. 29My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all. No one can snatch them out of My Father’s hand. Correct. All will be saved from the grave and receive eternal life. It is a great gift of resurrection. But not all will be exactly equal in their saved condition. For example, the twelve apostles of the lamb will preside over all.
Johnnie Cake Posted August 17, 2016 Posted August 17, 2016 What's your point dude? You come here throwing Molotov Cocktails for what purpose? I predict your demise in 1...2...3
The Nehor Posted August 17, 2016 Posted August 17, 2016 18 hours ago, theplains said: I read something in the article on page 8, heading "April 2016 Conference Notebook". "A promise was given that through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, if we obeyed the laws and priesthood ordinances of the gospel, we would have eternal life, the greatest of all His gifts." In light of the Word of Wisdom, does the LDS Church offer any guidelines as to whether the occasional coffee keeps you out of the temple and thus without hope for eternal life in the highest division of the Celestial Kingdom? Thanks, Jim It is defiance that keeps you out.
Jeanne Posted August 17, 2016 Posted August 17, 2016 1 hour ago, Johnnie Cake said: There is NOTHING inherently evil, wicked or harmful about coffee. It only becomes so when religion puts a mark of evil on something so enjoyable as coffee. Most if not all of the founding men of Mormonism, Joseph included drank coffee, Coffee was on the list of essential items our pioneer forefathers were instructed to bring with them on their trek from Nauvoo across the plains, Coffee was served in the Hotel Utah a church run establishment, it was served in the SL Temple cafeteria and church administration building board rooms through the 19-teen hundreds. Members of the 12 promoted its exclusion from consideration in the WoW. When banned many continued to drink it and those that abstained lamented its demise (I have no CFRs for any of the above claims...so don't ask...most are common knowledge but may be a surprise to some..still a simple google search will confirm most of these claims) It was Heber C. Grant who ignored the minority of the 12 who wanted to exclude coffee. He alone turn a enjoyable social drink into the piranha that it is seen as in the Mormon community today. And finally it warms my heart to see so many Starbucks and independent coffee houses pop up along the Wasatch front...it appears that the Rio Negro is having its impact on the Amazon...and that's a good thing... I am thinking that a hot cup of coffee might have really helped the Saints in travels to the West.
thesometimesaint Posted August 17, 2016 Posted August 17, 2016 19 hours ago, theplains said: I read something in the article on page 8, heading "April 2016 Conference Notebook". "A promise was given that through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, if we obeyed the laws and priesthood ordinances of the gospel, we would have eternal life, the greatest of all His gifts." In light of the Word of Wisdom, does the LDS Church offer any guidelines as to whether the occasional coffee keeps you out of the temple and thus without hope for eternal life in the highest division of the Celestial Kingdom? Thanks, Jim There is always repentance.
thesometimesaint Posted August 17, 2016 Posted August 17, 2016 1 hour ago, Mormoniscancer said: salvation is not conditional. We all fall short to the grace of God. That's why when we sin, screw up or otherwise, we are covered in gods grace and mercy. Salvation is not taken away. John 10 27-29 My sheep listen to My voice; I know them, and they follow Me. 28I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them out ofMy hand. 29My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all. No one can snatch them out of My Father’s hand. Salvation is always conditional. Not on the Savior, but on what we choose to do. Parable of the Sheep and the Goats. SEE https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+25:31-46
thesometimesaint Posted August 17, 2016 Posted August 17, 2016 44 minutes ago, Mormoniscancer said: youre waayy waay off if you think the S and G parable is about conditional salvation. Its about the good works and showing the fruit of the holy spirit which again is not needed to enter the kingdom of heaven. Merely a byproduct of living in the spirit. Incorrect. SEE Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Storm Rider Posted August 17, 2016 Posted August 17, 2016 3 hours ago, Mormoniscancer said: in regards to Matt7........ i struggle with this and this is a good topic to bring up and thank you. Doing this in his name because of routine, believing if you dont, that you are not truly doing gods work, ministering out of habit rather than doing it to show the love and the fruit of the spirit, doing godly works BUT not really having a personal relationship..... you are talking about getting your crowns and rewards in heaven from good works, not salvation. salvation is says Jesus is lord or lords and died for you. We do not disagree on the role of Jesus being the only Savior and Redeemer for humanity. Our emphasis is on discipleship - that not only must we admit with your mouth that Jesus is the Savior, but we demonstrate through our actions that he is our Lord and Master. Simply admitting that Jesus is the Christ does not save one - demons do that are not saved. It is a step, but it must never be the final step. Evangelicals like to focus on the fist stepping stone; LDS like to focus on the whole path that Jesus laid down.
thesometimesaint Posted August 17, 2016 Posted August 17, 2016 1 minute ago, Mormoniscancer said: or it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not by works, so that no one can boast. James 2:17 SEE Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
thesometimesaint Posted August 17, 2016 Posted August 17, 2016 How is that faith manifested? Why is it that the devils believe yet tremble? Does a wise man hid his light under a bushel? What is the meaning of Sermon on the Mount? Why repent and be baptized? The list is long of things we must do to enter the kingdom of Heaven.
Storm Rider Posted August 17, 2016 Posted August 17, 2016 21 minutes ago, Mormoniscancer said: or it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not by works, so that no one can boast. You are not saying anything where there is a disagreement. Have you got anything else other than saying Mormon is cancer - which may be offensive to some and could easily cause others to retort in a similar manner.
thesometimesaint Posted August 17, 2016 Posted August 17, 2016 1 minute ago, Mormoniscancer said: this is a tough passage anyways as there is a bazillion ways i know of people to split hairs because James writes differently than Paul and sometimes sounds like a contradiction That is why we rely on Apostles, and Prophets ... . SEE https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+4%3A11-16&version=KJV
Storm Rider Posted August 17, 2016 Posted August 17, 2016 23 minutes ago, Mormoniscancer said: sadly this is not the case. Cancer, have you got something more than just your opinion or do you just want to trade insults? That is not interesting to me, so unless you got something else I don't think there is a lot to talk about. 1
thatjimguy Posted August 17, 2016 Posted August 17, 2016 Anyone want to go back to the OP? I certainly wouldn't mind. Does having a cup of coffee keep you out of the temple? My thought was, what sin wouldn't?
JAHS Posted August 17, 2016 Posted August 17, 2016 12 minutes ago, Mormoniscancer said: this is a tough passage anyways as there is a bazillion ways i know of people to split hairs because James writes differently than Paul and sometimes sounds like a contradiction Not just sounds like. How can you be sure your interpretation is the correct one, ignoring what one says over the other? Glad we have revelation through prophets today who can provide us with correct interpretations.
Calm Posted August 17, 2016 Posted August 17, 2016 5 hours ago, Mormoniscancer said: this is absolutely ridiculous . Is this a serious question? In case someone hasn't pointed it out yet, the person asking this question is not LDS and is from my reading of his posts over the years, a critic of it who tends to go to simplistic views, including this very simplistic OP.
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