Does coffee threaten one's hope of eternal life?

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Tacenda said:

My dad was a coffee drinker growing up. In order for him to be there for my temple wedding ceremony his bishop said he would need to go on decaff coffee. My dad had severe back pain from an injury that caused him scar tissue because of surgeries and coffee gave him relief. So my dad went on decaff in order to make his temple recommend current. 

Many years later I happen to discuss this with a primary president I was in a calling with. I asked why is it okay to drink soda with caffeine, why would my dad need to drink decaff in order to get his temple recommend current, if caffeine isn't the issue? Maybe my bishop at the time was just trying to make it all work to our advantage, bless his heart. 

Anyway, she said she thought it is because coffee has the appearance of evil. Think coffee and cigarettes going hand in hand. I think this might be why we're not to drink coffee. But it irks me that coffee or cigarettes should ever make a person appear like a bad person. 

 

Going to decaf was never an official policy of acceptance, iirc.  It was something some bishops used, imo, so as not to have to be as strict.  It also assumes the reason for including coffee in the WoW is caffiene, which imo is most unlikely.

[James Tunney]

To answer the question, it shouldn't. People shouldn't be punished for trillions of years based on a sip of coffee or a lifetime of consumption.

[thesometimesaint]

HUH?  No one is suggesting that. The only "punishment" is not being able to take advantage of blessings of the Temple here and now. The LDS concept of Outer Darkness is reserved for those who will not repent.

[theplains]

On 27/10/2016 at 0:17 AM, thesometimesaint said:

HUH?  No one is suggesting that. The only "punishment" is not being able to take advantage of blessings of the Temple here and now. The LDS concept of Outer Darkness is reserved for those who will not repent.

According to what I understand of LDS theology, those who drink coffee are forbidden a temple recommend.
No temple entrance means no potential for a celestial marriage, eternal increase, exaltation, and living with 
Heavenly Father (for eternity). D&C 132:4 refers to these people as damned. The saved single people are 
said to become servants of those who are said to become gods (v. 16).  The punishment is pretty severe.

Regards,
Jim

[Ouagadougou]

On 16.08.2016 at 1:46 PM, theplains said:

I read something in the article on page 8, heading "April 2016 Conference Notebook".

"A promise was given that through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, if we obeyed the laws and 
priesthood ordinances of the gospel, we would have eternal life, the greatest of all His 
gifts."

In light of the Word of Wisdom, does the LDS Church offer any guidelines as to whether the 
occasional coffee keeps you out of the temple and thus without hope for eternal life in the
highest division of the Celestial Kingdom?

Thanks,
Jim

Hey Jim,

I recently wrote a post that I openly drink tea (both green and black) and personally don't see anything wrong about it at all.  I don't drink coffee because I don't like the taste.  I personally don't think God cares at all if you have a cup of coffee.  It is ridulous to me to believe that somebody can drink 10 Mountain Dews and Red Bulls a day and get a temple recommend, while somebody who drinks a cup of coffee is denied exaltation (a temple recommend).  I just don't view the atonement, salvation, etc. as a checklist requirement that must be checked off with God.  Out of everything that takes place in the world on a daily basis, coffee is not a big deal at all in my opinion. I realize that this goes against what most people here probably believe (and LDS teachings/doctrine), but I am a member of this church on my own terms, not what somebody else tells me.

Side note:  some of my family and friends are very sad with my decision that I drink tea (and are appalled), but I don't live my life to make other people happy.  My advice would be to be your own person and don't worry about what others think.  I think too much of religion, in general, is focused on"trying to just earn blessings and a reward in heaven," when, in fact, it should be about charity/service.   

[waveslider]

23 hours ago, Ouagadougou said:

Hey Jim,

I recently wrote a post that I openly drink tea (both green and black) and personally don't see anything wrong about it at all.  I don't drink coffee because I don't like the taste.  I personally don't think God cares at all if you have a cup of coffee.  It is ridulous to me to believe that somebody can drink 10 Mountain Dews and Red Bulls a day and get a temple recommend, while somebody who drinks a cup of coffee is denied exaltation (a temple recommend).  I just don't view the atonement, salvation, etc. as a checklist requirement that must be checked off with God.  Out of everything that takes place in the world on a daily basis, coffee is not a big deal at all in my opinion. I realize that this goes against what most people here probably believe (and LDS teachings/doctrine), but I am a member of this church on my own terms, not what somebody else tells me.

Side note:  some of my family and friends are very sad with my decision that I drink tea (and are appalled), but I don't live my life to make other people happy.  My advice would be to be your own person and don't worry about what others think.  I think too much of religion, in general, is focused on"trying to just earn blessings and a reward in heaven," when, in fact, it should be about charity/service.   

I think that the Lord knows a bit more about coffee, and tea, than we do. There are a lot of things I'm sure we aren't aware of, for instance I guess there are studies showing that you can pass coffee addiction on to your offspring because of it altering DNA:

That said I do agree that drinking Mountain Dew and energy type of drinks are really bad.

As far as not wanting the focus of religion on trying to earn blessings, I agree. I also think that a focus on charity, and service, are a superior focus, but I still think that the main focus should be on focusing 100% on God. He has His plan for us, so we should do all we can to find out what that plan is by having the Holy Ghost guide and direct us in all our thoughts and actions, at all times. The Holy Ghost is something that Jesus said He would send to us. If we follow the Holy Ghost as a constant companion and guide, we will automatically lay up treasures in heaven, we will automatically gain charity and offer service, after all, true charity is a spiritual gift, not just a force of will. We will do these things without even thinking about them as we change our nature to be more like God's nature, one little bit at a time.

We are all on different spiritual levels, so the people who are just trying to earn blessings are at least doing the right things and hopefully by doing them, they will start to recognize the higher reasons to do good, or they will be the slothful servants who need to be compelled in all things. I think being jacked up on drugs like caffeine and other chemicals that can cloud our ability to recognize that still small voice isn't helping at all to focus with our eye single to the glory of God. Neither is eating our average Western diet, and becoming sick because of it. I think that is why it is wisdom to follow the WoW. As we do so I'm sure we will be learning, line upon line, the higher reasons for obeying it, and therefore would start to not drink the energy drinks, etc., as well as starting to eat a healthier diet, etc.. Following the WoW for the highest reason (God) will not only yield these blessings,:

"18  And all saints who remember to keep and do these sayings, walking in obedience to the commandments, shall receive health in their navel and marrow to their bones;
19  And shall find wisdom and great treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures;
20  And shall run and not be weary, and shall walk and not faint.
21  And I, the Lord, give unto them a promise, that the destroying angel shall pass by them, as the children of Israel, and not slay them. Amen."
D&C 89:18-21

But we'll also yield the knowledge that we can, and will, obey God no matter if we can see the reasons why we should, or not, in our efforts to bring His plan for us about. Just my two cents worth anyway.

 

 

[Ouagadougou]

39 minutes ago, waveslider said:

I think that the Lord knows a bit more about coffee, and tea, than we do. There are a lot of things I'm sure we aren't aware of, for instance I guess there are studies showing that you can pass coffee addiction on to your offspring because of it altering DNA:

That said I do agree that drinking Mountain Dew and energy type of drinks are really bad.

As far as not wanting the focus of religion on trying to earn blessings, I agree. I also think that a focus on charity, and service, are a superior focus, but I still think that the main focus should be on focusing 100% on God. He has His plan for us, so we should do all we can to find out what that plan is by having the Holy Ghost guide and direct us in all our thoughts and actions, at all times. The Holy Ghost is something that Jesus said He would send to us. If we follow the Holy Ghost as a constant companion and guide, we will automatically lay up treasures in heaven, we will automatically gain charity and offer service, after all, true charity is a spiritual gift, not just a force of will. We will do these things without even thinking about them as we change our nature to be more like God's nature, one little bit at a time.

We are all on different spiritual levels, so the people who are just trying to earn blessings are at least doing the right things and hopefully by doing them, they will start to recognize the higher reasons to do good, or they will be the slothful servants who need to be compelled in all things. I think being jacked up on drugs like caffeine and other chemicals that can cloud our ability to recognize that still small voice isn't helping at all to focus with our eye single to the glory of God. Neither is eating our average Western diet, and becoming sick because of it. I think that is why it is wisdom to follow the WoW. As we do so I'm sure we will be learning, line upon line, the higher reasons for obeying it, and therefore would start to not drink the energy drinks, etc., as well as starting to eat a healthier diet, etc.. Following the WoW for the highest reason (God) will not only yield these blessings,:

"18  And all saints who remember to keep and do these sayings, walking in obedience to the commandments, shall receive health in their navel and marrow to their bones;
19  And shall find wisdom and great treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures;
20  And shall run and not be weary, and shall walk and not faint.
21  And I, the Lord, give unto them a promise, that the destroying angel shall pass by them, as the children of Israel, and not slay them. Amen."
D&C 89:18-21

But we'll also yield the knowledge that we can, and will, obey God no matter if we can see the reasons why we should, or not, in our efforts to bring His plan for us about. Just my two cents worth anyway.

 

 

I think moderation is the key...but a cup or two of coffee/tea each day is not bad for you, in my opinion.  

https://authoritynutrition.com/top-13-evidence-based-health-benefits-of-coffee/

There are a lot of benefits to coffee.  Plus, drinking soda is WAY worse, but you can still get a temple recommend by drinking soda or even taking dangerous prescription drugs (which makes no sense).  

Look at how bad a Coke is for you:

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/297600.php

"As such, it is no surprise that sugary drink consumption is associated with an array of health conditions. According to the Harvard School of Public Health, people who drink 1-2 cans of sugary beverages daily are 26% more likely to develop type 2 diabetes, and last month, Medical News Today reported on a study claiming 184,000 global deaths each year are down to sugary drink consumption."

Soda and energy drinks are worse than coffee, but it's allowed under the current policy, as it relates to the WoW.  I drink tea (green and black) almost daily and personally feel no different spiritually.  In fact, I feel better physically and spiritually having stopped drinking soda and energy drinks (all of which are allowed under the current policy) nearly a few years back.  

What's ironic is that Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and other early church leaders never practiced total abstinence (even well after the D&C 89 revelation was received in 1833).  For example:

"Joseph Smith never interpreted the Word of Wisdom revelation as demanding total abstinence"

"It appears clear that Joseph Smith never interpreted the [Word of Wisdom] revelation as demanding total abstinence, but stressed moderation and self-control....He had no objections to using tobacco for medicinal purposes. With regard to wine and "strong drink" possibly the most accurate index to the Prophet's position was expressed by Benjamin F. Johnson, who personally knew Joseph: "As a companion, socailly, he was highly endowed; was kind, generous, mirth loving, and a times even convivial. He was partial to a well supplied table and he did not always refuse the wine that maketh the heart glad."

http://en.fairmormon.org/Word_of_Wisdom/Joseph_Smith_drank_alcohol_prior_to_the_martyrdom

 

 

[Scott Lloyd]

On 8/16/2016 at 2:46 PM, theplains said:

I read something in the article on page 8, heading "April 2016 Conference Notebook".

"A promise was given that through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, if we obeyed the laws and 
priesthood ordinances of the gospel, we would have eternal life, the greatest of all His 
gifts."

In light of the Word of Wisdom, does the LDS Church offer any guidelines as to whether the 
occasional coffee keeps you out of the temple and thus without hope for eternal life in the
highest division of the Celestial Kingdom?

Thanks,
Jim

I once heard a General Authority relate the following incident.

A woman asked her bishop, "Are you going to let a little thing like coffee keep me out of the temple?"

His rejoinder: "Are you?"

[waveslider]

1 hour ago, Ouagadougou said:

I think moderation is the key...but a cup or two of coffee/tea each day is not bad for you, in my opinion.  

https://authoritynutrition.com/top-13-evidence-based-health-benefits-of-coffee/

There are a lot of benefits to coffee.  Plus, drinking soda is WAY worse, but you can still get a temple recommend by drinking soda or even taking dangerous prescription drugs (which makes no sense).  

Look at how bad a Coke is for you:

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/297600.php

"As such, it is no surprise that sugary drink consumption is associated with an array of health conditions. According to the Harvard School of Public Health, people who drink 1-2 cans of sugary beverages daily are 26% more likely to develop type 2 diabetes, and last month, Medical News Today reported on a study claiming 184,000 global deaths each year are down to sugary drink consumption."

Soda and energy drinks are worse than coffee, but it's allowed under the current policy, as it relates to the WoW.  I drink tea (green and black) almost daily and personally feel no different spiritually.  In fact, I feel better physically and spiritually having stopped drinking soda and energy drinks (all of which are allowed under the current policy) nearly a few years back.  

What's ironic is that Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and other early church leaders never practiced total abstinence (even well after the D&C 89 revelation was received in 1833).  For example:

"Joseph Smith never interpreted the Word of Wisdom revelation as demanding total abstinence"

"It appears clear that Joseph Smith never interpreted the [Word of Wisdom] revelation as demanding total abstinence, but stressed moderation and self-control....He had no objections to using tobacco for medicinal purposes. With regard to wine and "strong drink" possibly the most accurate index to the Prophet's position was expressed by Benjamin F. Johnson, who personally knew Joseph: "As a companion, socailly, he was highly endowed; was kind, generous, mirth loving, and a times even convivial. He was partial to a well supplied table and he did not always refuse the wine that maketh the heart glad."

http://en.fairmormon.org/Word_of_Wisdom/Joseph_Smith_drank_alcohol_prior_to_the_martyrdom

 

 

So are you saying that we know as much as the omniscient God, about the full effects of coffee and tea? Although I can't deny there are good things that come out of the use of these items, we can't be 100% certain that the good outweighs the bad in the long term. Even moderately breaking a commandment doesn't seem good to me, even if, "the arm of flesh," or in other words, "the science of man," says it is good.

As far as Joseph or anyone in the early days, before the WOW was given as a commandment, breaking the WOW it wasn't breaking a commandment. I don't know why the WOW was, "To be sent greeting; not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the word of wisdom, showing forth the order and will of God in the temporal salvation of all saints in the last days—" (D&C 89:2), but I have a feeling it would be pretty harsh to tell addicts who were allowed to indulge in their drugs of choice for years, to all of a sudden be told you are sinning if you indulge in any of it, over night. Perhaps the Lord, in his mercy, wanted to allow enough time for people to change their patterns of addiction without having the risks of withdrawal symptoms wreaking havoc and at the same time condemning those who can't deal with them instantly. Who really knows why though. We just know it is by commandment now, in our day, even though it wasn't originally.

Rationalizing that people misuse other substances that aren't addressed in the WOW doesn't make it right to misuse those substances that have been addressed specifically. Like you said:

On 11/4/2016 at 2:37 PM, Ouagadougou said:

I think too much of religion, in general, is focused on"trying to just earn blessings and a reward in heaven.....

Since there are many people who haven't quite grasped the spirit of the law, and only live the letter of the law as outlined to them, it is no surprise that many of them have to be compelled in all things before they realize they are harming themselves by not grasping the full reasons for having the WOW, and indulging in soft drinks that do nothing but wreak havoc on the human body.

There is a higher thing to focus on in religion than to get blessings, or even obeying the second commandment of loving our fellow beings, and that is keeping our eye focused upon the glory of God:

The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
Matthew 6:22

And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
Mark 12:30

If ye love me, keep my commandments.
John 14:15

I don't argue that you, "....feel better physically and spiritually having stopped drinking soda and energy drinks (all of which are allowed under the current policy) nearly a few years back," but you don't know how much better you would feel if you also decided to follow God's commandment to abstain from tea as well. Unless of coarse you don't believe it is really a commandment of God.

[VideoGameJunkie]

I'm glad I'm not even interested in coffee. It smells bad and would mess up my heartbeat. Energy drinks are even worse for my heart though.

[Ouagadougou]

13 hours ago, waveslider said:

So are you saying that we know as much as the omniscient God, about the full effects of coffee and tea? Although I can't deny there are good things that come out of the use of these items, we can't be 100% certain that the good outweighs the bad in the long term. Even moderately breaking a commandment doesn't seem good to me, even if, "the arm of flesh," or in other words, "the science of man," says it is good.

As far as Joseph or anyone in the early days, before the WOW was given as a commandment, breaking the WOW it wasn't breaking a commandment. I don't know why the WOW was, "To be sent greeting; not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the word of wisdom, showing forth the order and will of God in the temporal salvation of all saints in the last days—" (D&C 89:2), but I have a feeling it would be pretty harsh to tell addicts who were allowed to indulge in their drugs of choice for years, to all of a sudden be told you are sinning if you indulge in any of it, over night. Perhaps the Lord, in his mercy, wanted to allow enough time for people to change their patterns of addiction without having the risks of withdrawal symptoms wreaking havoc and at the same time condemning those who can't deal with them instantly. Who really knows why though. We just know it is by commandment now, in our day, even though it wasn't originally.

Rationalizing that people misuse other substances that aren't addressed in the WOW doesn't make it right to misuse those substances that have been addressed specifically. Like you said:

Since there are many people who haven't quite grasped the spirit of the law, and only live the letter of the law as outlined to them, it is no surprise that many of them have to be compelled in all things before they realize they are harming themselves by not grasping the full reasons for having the WOW, and indulging in soft drinks that do nothing but wreak havoc on the human body.

There is a higher thing to focus on in religion than to get blessings, or even obeying the second commandment of loving our fellow beings, and that is keeping our eye focused upon the glory of God:

The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
Matthew 6:22

And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
Mark 12:30

If ye love me, keep my commandments.
John 14:15

I don't argue that you, "....feel better physically and spiritually having stopped drinking soda and energy drinks (all of which are allowed under the current policy) nearly a few years back," but you don't know how much better you would feel if you also decided to follow God's commandment to abstain from tea as well. Unless of coarse you don't believe it is really a commandment of God.

We are of different opinions:  you believe it is God's commandment and I, on the other hand, do not view it as such.  Not drinking tea/coffee (as a requirement to enter the temple), in my opinion, is like saying I can't get a temple recommend for drinking milk.  

I have lived many years without tea (100% in accordance with the WoW) and, in all actuality, I personally felt no difference spiritually then I do now.  If anything, I feel much better now without soda and energy drinks (which are allowed under the WoW).  The idea that if I stop drinking tea, then I will inherit certain new blessings is a checklist mentality and too black and white.  So God just one day decided that it was required to enforce the WoW, but 150 years ago he was totally fine with early prophets consuming tea, coffee, alcohol and tobacco?  Finally, if tea is a deciding factor (line in the sand) for my salvation, then I am willing to take the risk.  😀

[waveslider]

22 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

We are of different opinions:  you believe it is God's commandment and I, on the other hand, do not view it as such.  Not drinking tea/coffee (as a requirement to enter the temple), in my opinion, is like saying I can't get a temple recommend for drinking milk.  

I have lived many years without tea (100% in accordance with the WoW) and, in all actuality, I personally felt no difference spiritually then I do now.  If anything, I feel much better now without soda and energy drinks (which are allowed under the WoW).  The idea that if I stop drinking tea, then I will inherit certain new blessings is a checklist mentality and too black and white.  So God just one day decided that it was required to enforce the WoW, but 150 years ago he was totally fine with early prophets consuming tea, coffee, alcohol and tobacco?  Finally, if tea is a deciding factor (line in the sand) for my salvation, then I am willing to take the risk.  😀

I can respect that you feel it isn't a commandment, especially since I can't find anywhere that states there was a new revelation specifically claiming it changed from a principle with a promise into a commandment. For me, the fact that you can't even get baptized into our church these days if you don't follow the WOW seems to suggest that it is a commandment, IMO.

What puzzles me though is when you state that you, "....have lived many years without tea (100% in accordance with the WoW) and, in all actuality, I personally felt no difference spiritually then I do now.," It seems pretty straight forward, but when you add, "If anything, I feel much better now without soda and energy drinks (which are allowed under the WoW)." It makes it seem like you were still drinking sodas/energy drinks when you weren't drinking your tea, which kind of makes it a moot point, IMO. That said I can respect the fact that you don't think it is a commandment so to each their own I guess. For me it feels much better to not do either, drink sodas/energy drinks, nor coffee and tea.

[Ouagadougou]

1 hour ago, waveslider said:

I can respect that you feel it isn't a commandment, especially since I can't find anywhere that states there was a new revelation specifically claiming it changed from a principle with a promise into a commandment. For me, the fact that you can't even get baptized into our church these days if you don't follow the WOW seems to suggest that it is a commandment, IMO.

What puzzles me though is when you state that you, "....have lived many years without tea (100% in accordance with the WoW) and, in all actuality, I personally felt no difference spiritually then I do now.," It seems pretty straight forward, but when you add, "If anything, I feel much better now without soda and energy drinks (which are allowed under the WoW)." It makes it seem like you were still drinking sodas/energy drinks when you weren't drinking your tea, which kind of makes it a moot point, IMO. That said I can respect the fact that you don't think it is a commandment so to each their own I guess. For me it feels much better to not do either, drink sodas/energy drinks, nor coffee and tea.

There was a time when I didn't drink soda, energy drinks and tea and was 100% compliant with the WoW; I then drank just soda and energy drinks without drinking tea.  I now drink green tea the majority of the time (black tea sometimes in the mornings).  I feel no difference spiritually now in comparison with when I wasn't drinking tea (without soda and energy drinks as well).  I view the church's fear and abolishment of tea/coffee almost as a superstition that makes no sense; this is my personal opinion/choice.  It's almost comical to listen to some of my LDS friends and family members as they subtly hint how I'm not worthy to go to the temple because I drink tea and that I won't gain the highest level of exaltation.  😀  

[theplains]

On 04/11/2016 at 8:37 PM, Ouagadougou said:

Side note:  some of my family and friends are very sad with my decision that I drink tea (and are appalled), but I don't live my life to make other people happy.  My advice would be to be your own person and don't worry about what others think.  I think too much of religion, in general, is focused on"trying to just earn blessings and a reward in heaven," when, in fact, it should be about charity/service.   

Agreed.

Jim

[waveslider]

3 hours ago, Ouagadougou said:

 I view the church's fear and abolishment of tea/coffee almost as a superstition that makes no sense; this is my personal opinion/choice.  It's almost comical to listen to some of my LDS friends and family members as they subtly hint how I'm not worthy to go to the temple because I drink tea and that I won't gain the highest level of exaltation.  😀  

Anyone who is judging you, saying you won't gain the highest level of exaltation are probably more guilty than you of doing something that will keep themselves from the highest level of exaltation, if you ask me because Christ is the only one qualified to make that kind of judgement. That said, as for me personally, since the WOW is part of our baptismal covenant I view it as breaking my covenant if I break the WOW, although I don't see it as superstition. I guess if I viewed it as superstition I wouldn't even hold my baptism as very meaningful either.

[FormerLDS]

On ‎8‎/‎16‎/‎2016 at 3:46 PM, theplains said:

I read something in the article on page 8, heading "April 2016 Conference Notebook".

"A promise was given that through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, if we obeyed the laws and 
priesthood ordinances of the gospel, we would have eternal life, the greatest of all His 
gifts."

In light of the Word of Wisdom, does the LDS Church offer any guidelines as to whether the 
occasional coffee keeps you out of the temple and thus without hope for eternal life in the
highest division of the Celestial Kingdom?

Thanks,
Jim

Hello Friends,

There is a vast difference between a "gift" and a "reward".  A gift is something offered freely and without any compensation whatsoever.  For example, when the wise men came to the baby Jesus in Matthew 2:11, they brought Him "gifts": “And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.”

A reward is the opposite of a gift since a reward is the result of worthy behavior, merit or service.  This is seen in Revelation 22:12 "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be."

Since "eternal life", is "the greatest of all His gifts", how could drinking coffee (works) make any difference? 

The definition of "eternal life" is fundamentally incorrect.  

[waveslider]

5 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

Hello Friends,

There is a vast difference between a "gift" and a "reward".  A gift is something offered freely and without any compensation whatsoever.  For example, when the wise men came to the baby Jesus in Matthew 2:11, they brought Him "gifts": “And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.”

A reward is the opposite of a gift since a reward is the result of worthy behavior, merit or service.  This is seen in Revelation 22:12 "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be."

Since "eternal life", is "the greatest of all His gifts", how could drinking coffee (works) make any difference? 

The definition of "eternal life" is fundamentally incorrect.  

It all depends on your interpretation of what, "Eternal Life," means. If you think of it in terms of just the resurrection, yes all will get that no matter if they break the commandments and don't repent of them, or not. If instead you think of it in terms of both physical life and spiritual life (Living in the presence of our Heavenly Father throughout the eternities) I think this scripture speaks volumes about obeying commandments and works of iniquity:

"21  ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Matthew 7:21-23
 

[FormerLDS]

On 11/10/2016 at 10:42 AM, waveslider said:

It all depends on your interpretation of what, "Eternal Life," means. If you think of it in terms of just the resurrection, yes all will get that no matter if they break the commandments and don't repent of them, or not. If instead you think of it in terms of both physical life and spiritual life (Living in the presence of our Heavenly Father throughout the eternities) I think this scripture speaks volumes about obeying commandments and works of iniquity:

"21  ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Matthew 7:21-23
 

There is only one LDS definition for "Eternal life".  Look it up.

Never ceases to amaze me how clueless most LDS members are about eternal life even though it is the single most important doctrine in their religion.

"...he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

What does Jesus Christ plainly tell us that "the will of the Father" is?

The rejected of the savior in Matthew 7 clearly believed in Jesus Christ and performed greater works than any Latter-day Saint, yet they were rejected of the Savior because they did not do His will.

How could this be possible?  

Clean up the attitude if you want to stay in the thread.

[thesometimesaint]

Jesus Christ himself  said others would do greater works than he did.

SEE http://biblehub.com/commentaries/john/14-12.htm

[waveslider]

5 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

There is only one LDS definition for "Eternal life".  Look it up.

Never ceases to amaze me how clueless most LDS members are about eternal life even though it is the single most important doctrine in their religion.

"...he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

What does Jesus Christ plainly tell us that "the will of the Father" is?

The rejected of the savior in Matthew 7 clearly believed in Jesus Christ and performed greater works than any Latter-day Saint, yet they were rejected of the Savior because they did not do His will.

How could this be possible?  

What's up with all the hostility? Perhaps if you actually read what I said you might find out that I said, ".....your interpretation...." not, "my interpretation," or the church's interpretation." Of coarse I'm clueless as to what your interpretation is, especially since your handle makes it apparent that you are no longer LDS. Remember that when you are pointing fingers, three of them point right back at you..... "Clueless," is a relative term here. Please take the time to actually read what I have posted before rashly jumping to false conclusions, next time.

On 11/10/2016 at 8:42 AM, waveslider said:

It all depends on your interpretation of what, "Eternal Life," means.

Let me remind you of what I was responding to:

On 11/10/2016 at 8:30 AM, FormerLDS said:

Hello Friends,

There is a vast difference between a "gift" and a "reward".  A gift is something offered freely and without any compensation whatsoever.  For example, when the wise men came to the baby Jesus in Matthew 2:11, they brought Him "gifts": “And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.”

A reward is the opposite of a gift since a reward is the result of worthy behavior, merit or service.  This is seen in Revelation 22:12 "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be."

Since "eternal life", is "the greatest of all His gifts", how could drinking coffee (works) make any difference? 

The definition of "eternal life" is fundamentally incorrect.  

The thing you aren't realizing is that a gift sometimes requires opening in order to use it, even though it is given freely. Such is the case with the atonement. Although it is a free gift, not all will be partaking in the full gift simply because we won't all love Christ, and therefore in a sense won't open (works) the gift:

"If ye love me, keep my commandments."
John 14:15

It is still a free gift because there is no way we could earn our way to salvation, even if we perfectly kept every single commandment from now on, because we have already transgressed.

The term, "Reward," as in Revelation 22:12 isn't talking about earning anything. It is talking about how actions speak louder than words when it comes to loving our Heavenly Father, Christ and the Holy Ghost (this is what I was trying to illustrate when I referred to Matthew 7:21-23.). What amazes me is how so many people think they would even want to be in the presence of God when they don't even love Him enough to obey Him. (Just so there is no misunderstanding, that was a statement made in general, not directed at you personally because I don't know what you think)

5 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

The rejected of the savior in Matthew 7 clearly believed in Jesus Christ and performed greater works than any Latter-day Saint, yet they were rejected of the Savior because they did not do His will.

How could this be possible?  

How this is possible is by a pure expression of love in two directions, and even though we are always screwing up our direction of giving love through obedience, we are all given the free gift of a remission of sins if we do no more than try with all our, "heart, might mind and strength," picking ourselves back up (starting from a kneeling position most of the time) in repentance, begging for mercy, made possible from the perfect love given us from our divine Heavenly family. If instead we think we can earn anything and don't obey, we are going to be told, "I never knew you," meaning, "you didn't love me," "know me, "become one with me," etc.. It has to be coming from a pure love standpoint or else it is all done in vain anyway. It isn't how perfect we obey, but how much we are truly trying to obey.

The atonement is the only way to become, "at one," with God, by expressing our love through obedience, we are at the same time training our thoughts and actions to be like God's thoughts and actions. How do we become one with someone whom we have thoughts so carnally different?

I think the problem only arises when we have different definitions of terms like, "Gifts," "Rewards," "Works," and "Grace," etc..

So now that, ....hopefully...., we are past this misunderstanding. It is my thought that since we as LDS people make a covenant to obey the WOW, we are actually breaking that contract, on our own volition. So even if we think it is okay to drink coffee, as an LDS person, we have also been told by prophets that, "Coffee," is something we need to abstain from if we are to obey the WOW. If we love Him we will at least try to obey Him, even if we don't even understand why we need to obey Him in His ways. Do we want to truly become at one with Him, or do we want to rationalize that we have some other way that will still work?

[poptart]

Just thought id toss this out there, a buddy of mine whos lds visited me in a coffee shop, was cool with othet coffee drinkers, atleast the lds i know dont bash us.

[Jeanne]

I think we are all in heap deep crap if coffee is a deal breaker.

[theplains]

On 10/11/2016 at 1:30 PM, FormerLDS said:

Since "eternal life", is "the greatest of all His gifts", how could drinking coffee (works) make any difference? 

The definition of "eternal life" is fundamentally incorrect.  

From what I understand of LDS theology, one must to to the temple and get married so that they
(the couple) can inherit eternal life (become a god/goddess) someday.  It is a reward for the result
of a service. Drinking coffee violates the requirement for a temple recommend, hence no marriage,
hence no exaltation to godhood.

Thanks,
Jim

[poptart]

So what's the deal with God hood?  If you make it to the 2nd heaven with no kids you becomean angel of some sort, but with God hood you get a planet and make kids forever?  I should just make a thread out of this, but to me the 2nd glory sounds waaay more appealing; getting to be a gorgeous angel with perfect blond hair, a fabulous roman style robe, a perfect, slim attractive body and the power ohh the power.  Man, getting to do stuff like st michael the archangel would beat having to be an eternal parent i think. 

[Teancum]

On 10/26/2016 at 5:06 PM, Calm said:

Going to decaf was never an official policy of acceptance, iirc.  It was something some bishops used, imo, so as not to have to be as strict.  It also assumes the reason for including coffee in the WoW is caffiene, which imo is most unlikely.

Interestingly the saints roster of items to bring with them on the trek west when fleeeing Nauvoo included coffee.   The only real Hot drinks of any sort when the WoW was given was coffee and tea.  Caffeine has nothing to do with it.  Around 1852 or so hot drinks was defined as coffee and tea.   Still it was routinely IGNORED until for whatever odd reason President Grant made the WoW binding for a temple recommend.  Based on Section 89 it was NEVER intended as such.   And many LDS leaders did not keep the WoW very "obediently" before that.   It's a silly rule and simply magnifies the LDS church's attempt to treat its members like children and control them.  

Edited November 14, 2016 by Teancum