Does coffee threaten one's hope of eternal life?

[Teancum]

21 hours ago, waveslider said:

Thank you Calm. He must have missed this part of my comment though:

 

And your position is not based on opinion?

[Teancum]

5 hours ago, waveslider said:

I guess it is an opinion about what scripture says, and what prophets have stated they received in revelation, so technically it is still just opinion, but I do see a difference when Teancum just claims something out of the blue the contradicts what I have seen scripture and prophecy teach. I can agree to disagree though and you can believe that something randomly pulled out of the head, with no scripture references nor prophetic statements, equates to what scripture and prophecy seem to be claiming as being hypocritical then so be it.

My study of the historical practice in the LDS church of the WoW and how it was inconsistently followed until President Grant made it a requirement of receiving a temple recommend has led me to this conclusion and opinion.   How I understand a divine being like God might be if God exists also in my opinion makes it seem silly that such a being would deny opportunities over drinking coffee.

[waveslider]

4 hours ago, Teancum said:

My study of the historical practice in the LDS church of the WoW and how it was inconsistently followed until President Grant made it a requirement of receiving a temple recommend has led me to this conclusion and opinion.   How I understand a divine being like God might be if God exists also in my opinion makes it seem silly that such a being would deny opportunities over drinking coffee.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. I can respect your opinion on that.

[FormerLDS]

19 hours ago, thesometimesaint said:

That's the point. Jesus said it. Don't you believe Jesus?

Is it possible there is difference between what what Jesus Christ said and how LDS theology has interpreted what Jesus Christ said?

[thesometimesaint]

On 11/12/2016 at 4:25 PM, Teancum said:

Yet a cup of coffee, or tea, or a beer, which the WoW is actually fine with, keeps someone out of the place where the highest ordinances are given that qualifies one for exaltation.  Total nonesense.

The WoW is against the consumption of coffee, tea, and beer(Mild drink mean Barley Water, an ancient beverage).

[Gray]

17 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

The WoW is against the consumption of coffee, tea, and beer(Mild drink mean Barley Water, an ancient beverage).

Mild barley drinks is also consistent with beer, and was readily available to early saints. 

There is no mention of coffee or tea in the original text. The intent was likely a prohibition against any hot beverage, not against something like iced tea. 

Edited November 15, 2016 by Gray

[thesometimesaint]

41 minutes ago, Gray said:

Mild barley drinks is also consistent with beer, and was readily available to early saints. 

There is no mention of coffee or tea in the original text. The intent was likely a prohibition against any hot beverage, not against something like iced tea. 

Not really. Any drink containing more than trace amounts of alcohol were discouraged, and are now taught against. Hot had nothing to do with temperature, but presence of alcohol.

[smac97]

48 minutes ago, Gray said:

Mild barley drinks is also consistent with beer, and was readily available to early saints. 

There is no mention of coffee or tea in the original text. The intent was likely a prohibition against any hot beverage, not against something like iced tea. 

CFR, if you please.   The exegesis of "hot drinks" which the Church uses today originated with Hyrum Smith (and, apparently, with Joseph).

Also consider these remarks by Brigham Young:

Quote

“This Word of Wisdom prohibits the use of hot drinks and tobacco. I have heard it argued that tea and coffee are not mentioned therein; that is very true; but what were the people in the habit of taking as hot drinks when that revelation was given? Tea and coffee. We were not in the habit of drinking water very hot, but tea and coffee-the beverages in common use. And the Lord said hot drinks are not good for the body nor the belly.” (Brigham Young, Discourses of Brigham Young, selected and arranged by John A. Widtsoe, p.182)

A few more interesting bits (same link as above):

Quote

“Hot drinks” were officially defined as tea and coffee in a general conference in the very early days of the Mormon Church. Elder John A. Widtsoe, of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles reported the following:

Quote

“The Word of Wisdom contains certain very important warnings. It declares that alcohol, tobacco, tea and coffee are not good for the body. The revelation says “hot drinks,” but before the revelation was a year old, “hot drinks” were defined to include tea and coffee” (Elder John A. Widtsoe, Conference Report, April 1926).

And Victor L. Ludlow has further clarified that the “hot drinks” referred to in the Word of Wisdom do not apply to the herbal teas.

Quote

“The Word of Wisdom counsels against drinking “hot drinks,” which have been identified by early Church leaders as coffee and tea. “Tea” refers to the standard tea derived from the tea plant, sometimes called black tea or green tea. The Word of Wisdom has not been interpreted as proscribing herbal teas, stating that “all wholesome herbs God hath ordained for the constitution, nature, and use of man (D&C 89:10)” (Victor L. Ludlow, Principles and Practices of the Restored Gospel, p.434).

Now, what is the difference between green and black tea? They both come from the same camellia sinensis plant. The only difference between the two is that black tea is further processed by fermentation.

It is my understanding that iced tea is usually derived from the same plant (camellia sinensis).  

Thanks,

-Smac

[Gray]

2 hours ago, thesometimesaint said:

Not really. Any drink containing more than trace amounts of alcohol were discouraged, and are now taught against. Hot had nothing to do with temperature, but presence of alcohol.

Alcohol was consumed by the saints all the way into the 20th century. There are also teachings forbidding the consumption of hot soup. But tea and coffee are generally the hot drinks of the day. Some people believed that hot drinks were harmful to health. 

[Ouagadougou]

1 minute ago, Gray said:

Alcohol was consumed by the saints all the way into the 20th century. There are also teachings forbidding the consumption of hot soup. But tea and coffee are generally the hot drinks of the day. Some people believed that hot drinks were harmful to health. 

Brigham Young ran distilleries in Utah and even brought alcohol across the plains.  Could you imagine not being allowed to eat hot soup!? 😀  That's how I view coffee and tea -- just a superstition IMO. 

[Gray]

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

CFR, if you please.   The exegesis of "hot drinks" which the Church uses today originated with Hyrum Smith (and, apparently, with Joseph).

Also consider these remarks by Brigham Young:

A few more interesting bits (same link as above):

It is my understanding that iced tea is usually derived from the same plant (camellia sinensis).  

Thanks,

-Smac

The text itself says hot drinks. I assume you don't need a reference there? Hyrum Smith's interpretation doesn't contradict the idea that it is the temperature which is harmful - after all, tea and coffee are consumed hot. 

George Q. Cannon (1868):

Quote

We have heard considerable of late, especially since twelve months today, on the subject of the Word of Wisdom. Almost every elder who has spoken from this stand has felt the necessity and importance of calling the attention of the people to this subject. We are told, and very plainly too, that hot drinks—tea, coffee, chocolate, cocoa and all drinks of this kind are not good for man. We are also told that alcoholic drinks are not good, and that tobacco when either smoked or chewed is an evil. We are told that swine's flesh is not good, and that we should dispense with it; and we are told that flesh of any kind is not suitable to man in the summer time, and ought to be eaten sparingly in the winter. 

...

Quote

We must not permit them to drink liquor or hot drinks, or hot soups or to use tobacco or other articles that are injurious. I do not believe that you could ever make as great and noble race of men, if you feed them on one article of food alone, as if you gave them a variety of diet.

http://jod.mrm.org/12/221

Edited November 15, 2016 by Gray

[Gray]

6 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

Brigham Young ran distilleries in Utah and even brought alcohol across the plains.  Could you imagine not being allowed to eat hot soup!? 😀  That's how I view coffee and tea -- just a superstition IMO. 

It was an unfortunate idea, as the process of making coffee and tea sterilized the water, which was not always safe to drink. 

[Calm]

There is at least one study that shows the temperature of tea can contribute to cancer.  I assume it is well known enough that I don't have to link it.  Not talking the difference between lukewarm and pleasantly hot, but closer toscalding.  

Iirc, it contrasts two cultures located near each other that drink the same beverage, one culture typically consuming at a higher temp than the other.

I am not suggesting this was why hot drinks were mentioned in the WoW or that was how it was understood.  I am just adding it to point out it wasn't necessarily unfortunate if people took it to mean actual temperature and after boiling let whatever cool off enough.

[Jeanne]

4 hours ago, thesometimesaint said:

Not really. Any drink containing more than trace amounts of alcohol were discouraged, and are now taught against. Hot had nothing to do with temperature, but presence of alcohol.

Well there goes my hot toddy..  I wonder how many restaurants serve soup to those who are having dinner after going through the Temple on Temple Day or something.

 

[smac97]

2 hours ago, Gray said:

The text itself says hot drinks. I assume you don't need a reference there?

You previously said (emphasis added): "The intent was likely a prohibition against any hot beverage, not against something like iced tea."

I am looking for references which helped you glean "the intent," particularly given Hyrum's remarks ("And again 'hot drinks are not for the body, or belly;' there are many who wonder what this can mean; whether it refers to tea, or coffee, or not. I say it does refer to tea, and coffee.") and Brigham Young's ("What were the people in the habit of taking as hot drinks when that revelation was given? Tea and coffee. We were not in the habit of drinking water very hot, but tea and coffee-the beverages in common use.") and (purportedly) Joseph Smith's ("I understand that some of the people are excusing themselves in using tea and coffee, because the Lord only said 'hot drinks' in the revelation of the Word of Wisdom .... Tea and coffee ... are what the Lord meant when He said 'hot drinks'.").

So I guess I'm looking for an evidentiary basis for the assertion that "{t}he intent was likely a prohibition against any hot beverage."  That does not seem to jibe with early historical sources.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited November 15, 2016 by smac97

[Teancum]

6 hours ago, thesometimesaint said:

The WoW is against the consumption of coffee, tea, and beer(Mild drink mean Barley Water, an ancient beverage).

The WoW does not specify coffee and tea though that was later "clarified."   Drinks made of barely in 1830 means beer.

[Teancum]

5 hours ago, thesometimesaint said:

Not really. Any drink containing more than trace amounts of alcohol were discouraged, and are now taught against. Hot had nothing to do with temperature, but presence of alcohol.

Ah well Joseph ignored this and drank beer and wine and wanted to open a bar in the Nauvoo house. Brigham had a brewery.   All sorts of other "violations" of the WoW including hard liquor in LDS leadership until President Grant mandated it as a TR requirement.

[Gray]

16 hours ago, smac97 said:

You previously said (emphasis added): "The intent was likely a prohibition against any hot beverage, not against something like iced tea."

I am looking for references which helped you glean "the intent," particularly given Hyrum's remarks ("And again 'hot drinks are not for the body, or belly;' there are many who wonder what this can mean; whether it refers to tea, or coffee, or not. I say it does refer to tea, and coffee.") and Brigham Young's ("What were the people in the habit of taking as hot drinks when that revelation was given? Tea and coffee. We were not in the habit of drinking water very hot, but tea and coffee-the beverages in common use.") and (purportedly) Joseph Smith's ("I understand that some of the people are excusing themselves in using tea and coffee, because the Lord only said 'hot drinks' in the revelation of the Word of Wisdom .... Tea and coffee ... are what the Lord meant when He said 'hot drinks'.").

So I guess I'm looking for an evidentiary basis for the assertion that "{t}he intent was likely a prohibition against any hot beverage."  That does not seem to jibe with early historical sources.

Thanks,

-Smac

I'm basing the intent on the text itself, which explicitly says "hot drinks". I'm aware of no 19th century source that contradicts the idea. 

[James Tunney]

9 minutes ago, Gray said:

I'm basing the intent on the text itself, which explicitly says "hot drinks". I'm aware of no 19th century source that contradicts the idea. 

Joseph Smith's "revelation" certainly could have been written with more clarity. One wonders why it wasn't?

[smac97]

16 minutes ago, Gray said:

I'm basing the intent on the text itself, which explicitly says "hot drinks". I'm aware of no 19th century source that contradicts the idea. 

Okay.  I don't think you are engaging the evidence or explaining why your interpretation of "hot drinks" in 2016 is more accurate than that offered by Joseph Smith's contemporaries.  Context matters.  People like Hyrum Smith and Brigham Young were far more familiar that we are with the context in which the WoW came forward.  So I find their interpretation of "hot drinks" to be more persuasive.

No big deal, though.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Gray]

28 minutes ago, James Tunney said:

Joseph Smith's "revelation" certainly could have been written with more clarity. One wonders why it wasn't?

Well, you can't get a perfect plan for healthy living via revelation. Even using the appropriate tools for the task (science), we're still struggling. 

[Gray]

20 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Okay.  I don't think you are engaging the evidence or explaining why your interpretation of "hot drinks" in 2016 is more accurate than that offered by Joseph Smith's contemporaries.  Context matters.  People like Hyrum Smith and Brigham Young were far more familiar that we are with the context in which the WoW came forward.  So I find their interpretation of "hot drinks" to be more persuasive.

No big deal, though.

Thanks,

-Smac

The hot drinks that people consumed then and now are coffee and tea - I don't think that's controversial. It's consistent with medical ideas of the time that hot drinks were injurious to human health. Notice that none of your sources say that the prohibition has nothing to do with the temperature of the beverage. That's what we say today because we love our soups and hot chocolate. 

Edited November 16, 2016 by Gray

[hope_for_things]

I read somewhere, I can't remember, and I'm wondering if anyone else has read this and knows the source.  The implication was that since the men were primarily the ones using tobacco and hard liquor, that the prohibition on tea and coffee was aimed at the behavior of the women.  Since Emma was a catalyst for this revelation, the resulting word of wisdom not only pointed the finger at the men and their nasty habits, but also pointed a finger at the women and the drinks they preferred to consume.

Anyone else hear about this before, and do you know the source? 

[smac97]

36 minutes ago, Gray said:

The hot drinks that people consumed then and now are coffee and tea - I don't think that's controversial.

And Hyrum Smith and Brigham Young (and, apparently, Joseph Smith) equated "hot drinks" with coffee and tea.  And yet you are suggesting that the "intent" of D&C 89's reference to "hot drinks" was to refer to "any hot beverage."  

Quote

It's consistent with medical ideas of the time that hot drinks were injurious to human health.

Again, you are ignoring historical evidence.  And AFAIK, the WoW was never construed by the 19th-century Saints as prohibiting the consumption of soup or broth.  So the restriction to coffee and tea was not perhaps to some extent "consistent with," but certainly not identical to, "medical ideas of the time that hot drinks were injurious."

Quote

Notice that none of your sources say that the prohibition has nothing to do with the temperature of the beverage.

Right.  They say the prohibition had to do with coffee and tea.  Which is why I find a contrary suggestion that the "intent" was  "likely a prohibition against any hot beverage."  

Quote

That's what we say today because we love our soups and hot chocolate. 

Nope.  What we say today is based on statements by Hyrum Smith, Brigham Young, and numerous other prophets and apostles, who have defined "hot drinks" as referring to coffee and tea.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited November 16, 2016 by smac97

[smac97]

12 minutes ago, James Tunney said:

Joseph Smith's "revelation" certainly could have been written with more clarity. One wonders why it wasn't?

Much (most?) of Isaiah could have been written with more clarity as well.  Same with much of the Psalms.  And most of Revelation.  Do you have any thoughts about why these parts of scripture could have been written with more clarity, but were not?

Meanwhile, I think the LDS paradigm has a ready answer.  We believe in continuing revelation.  In prophets and apostles.  In personal revelation.  And we are a record-keeping people as well, so we have quite a bit of information about the context and milieu in which The Word of Wisdom came forth.  We are not bereft of tools and resources for understanding it.  We have historical records which quote contemporary sources (Hyrum Smith, Brigham Young, etc.).  We also have continuing guidance from prophets and apostles.  We also have personal revelation.  All of these things can and should be used by the Saints when reading D&C 89, or Isaiah, or Revelation, and so on.

Thanks,

-Smac