Does coffee threaten one's hope of eternal life?

[Teancum]

On 10/26/2016 at 10:52 PM, James Tunney said:

To answer the question, it shouldn't. People shouldn't be punished for trillions of years based on a sip of coffee or a lifetime of consumption.

Indeed!

[Teancum]

On 10/27/2016 at 0:17 AM, thesometimesaint said:

HUH?  No one is suggesting that. The only "punishment" is not being able to take advantage of blessings of the Temple here and now. The LDS concept of Outer Darkness is reserved for those who will not repent.

Yet a cup of coffee, or tea, or a beer, which the WoW is actually fine with, keeps someone out of the place where the highest ordinances are given that qualifies one for exaltation.  Total nonesense.

[Teancum]

On 11/4/2016 at 8:37 PM, Ouagadougou said:

Hey Jim,

I recently wrote a post that I openly drink tea (both green and black) and personally don't see anything wrong about it at all.  I don't drink coffee because I don't like the taste.  I personally don't think God cares at all if you have a cup of coffee.  It is ridulous to me to believe that somebody can drink 10 Mountain Dews and Red Bulls a day and get a temple recommend, while somebody who drinks a cup of coffee is denied exaltation (a temple recommend).  I just don't view the atonement, salvation, etc. as a checklist requirement that must be checked off with God.  Out of everything that takes place in the world on a daily basis, coffee is not a big deal at all in my opinion. I realize that this goes against what most people here probably believe (and LDS teachings/doctrine), but I am a member of this church on my own terms, not what somebody else tells me.

Side note:  some of my family and friends are very sad with my decision that I drink tea (and are appalled), but I don't live my life to make other people happy.  My advice would be to be your own person and don't worry about what others think.  I think too much of religion, in general, is focused on"trying to just earn blessings and a reward in heaven," when, in fact, it should be about charity/service.   

Tea is good for you.  Man made rules often fall apart.  If there really is a God this god does not give a rats rump about what you eat and drink. 

[Teancum]

On 11/5/2016 at 9:39 PM, Scott Lloyd said:

I once heard a General Authority relate the following incident.

A woman asked her bishop, "Are you going to let a little thing like coffee keep me out of the temple?"

His rejoinder: "Are you?"

A stupid anecdote to support confirmation bias and a priori assumptions.  Carry on in the rigidity of your positions.   Life really is grand when you realize so much of what is heaped on you is simply man made. 

[Teancum]

On 11/5/2016 at 11:32 PM, waveslider said:

So are you saying that we know as much as the omniscient God, about the full effects of coffee and tea? Although I can't deny there are good things that come out of the use of these items, we can't be 100% certain that the good outweighs the bad in the long term. Even moderately breaking a commandment doesn't seem good to me, even if, "the arm of flesh," or in other words, "the science of man," says it is good.

As far as Joseph or anyone in the early days, before the WOW was given as a commandment, breaking the WOW it wasn't breaking a commandment. I don't know why the WOW was, "To be sent greeting; not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the word of wisdom, showing forth the order and will of God in the temporal salvation of all saints in the last days—" (D&C 89:2), but I have a feeling it would be pretty harsh to tell addicts who were allowed to indulge in their drugs of choice for years, to all of a sudden be told you are sinning if you indulge in any of it, over night. Perhaps the Lord, in his mercy, wanted to allow enough time for people to change their patterns of addiction without having the risks of withdrawal symptoms wreaking havoc and at the same time condemning those who can't deal with them instantly. Who really knows why though. We just know it is by commandment now, in our day, even though it wasn't originally.

Rationalizing that people misuse other substances that aren't addressed in the WOW doesn't make it right to misuse those substances that have been addressed specifically. Like you said:

Since there are many people who haven't quite grasped the spirit of the law, and only live the letter of the law as outlined to them, it is no surprise that many of them have to be compelled in all things before they realize they are harming themselves by not grasping the full reasons for having the WOW, and indulging in soft drinks that do nothing but wreak havoc on the human body.

There is a higher thing to focus on in religion than to get blessings, or even obeying the second commandment of loving our fellow beings, and that is keeping our eye focused upon the glory of God:

The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
Matthew 6:22

And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
Mark 12:30

If ye love me, keep my commandments.
John 14:15

I don't argue that you, "....feel better physically and spiritually having stopped drinking soda and energy drinks (all of which are allowed under the current policy) nearly a few years back," but you don't know how much better you would feel if you also decided to follow God's commandment to abstain from tea as well. Unless of coarse you don't believe it is really a commandment of God.

If there is a omniscient God he did not give some silly rule about drinking cofeee and tea that would keep you out of his heaven.

[rodheadlee]

Matthew 15:

16 And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?

  17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?

  18 But those things which proceed out of the ^amouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.

[waveslider]

34 minutes ago, Teancum said:

If there is a omniscient God he did not give some silly rule about drinking cofeee and tea that would keep you out of his heaven.

It isn't any particular offense that would keep you out from God's presence, since the atonement allows for repentance. But if we are unwilling to become at one with God, by not trying to get in line with His way of thinking, and in keeping our covenants which we have made with Him, in trying to be like Him in our actions as well, we are not utilizing the atonement to it's full capacity, and therefore won't be able to abide His presence.

I really have a hard time thinking that Heaven has a Starbucks somewhere within it, and God goes to get his daily fix of chemicals. I find that when people state emphatically that God did not do something, with nothing more than an opinion to base that thought from, they are in essence saying they are omniscient and are already at one with God. Wake up and realize that you don't know that God didn't make a rule, that was given by direct revelation from Himself, unless of course you can CFR.

Edited November 13, 2016 by waveslider
missing word

[Ouagadougou]

56 minutes ago, waveslider said:

It isn't any particular offense that would keep you out from God's presence, since the atonement allows for repentance. But if we are unwilling to become at one with God, by not trying to get in line with His way of thinking, and in keeping our covenants which we have made with Him, in trying to be like Him in our actions as well, we are not utilizing the atonement to it's full capacity, and therefore won't be able to abide His presence.

I really have a hard time thinking that Heaven has a Starbucks somewhere within it, and God goes to get his daily fix of chemicals. I find that when people state emphatically that God did not do something, with nothing more than an opinion to base that thought from, they are in essence saying they are omniscient and are already at one with God. Wake up and realize that you don't know that God didn't make a rule, that was given by direct revelation from Himself, unless of course you can CFR.

More chemicals in Coke and other sodas, all of which are acceptable and allow somebody to get a temple recommend (if they are consumed).  

I have a hard time believing God drinks Coke in heaven... and is ok with us drinking Coke, and other sodas/drinks, while he is so concerned about coffee/tea, in his way of thinking.  

[Ouagadougou]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

If there is a omniscient God he did not give some silly rule about drinking cofeee and tea that would keep you out of his heaven.

Don't forget that early church leaders (Brigham Young and Joseph Smith) drank wine, tea/coffee and even smoked.  God was ok with it 150 years ago I guess, but then decided that this commandment needed to be stricter years later.  God was ok with Brigham Young running distilleries in Utah...but you can't even purchase caffeine on campus at BYU today. 

[waveslider]

7 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

More chemicals in Coke and other sodas, all of which are acceptable and allow somebody to get a temple recommend (if they are consumed).  

I have a hard time believing God drinks Coke in heaven... and is ok with us drinking Coke, and other sodas/drinks, while he is so concerned about coffee/tea, in his way of thinking.  

"Round and round we go, where it stops....." well that is up to you. I, as well as others, have already explained all of this. You bring up the same old concerns you have already asked about, and that have already been answered, expecting some kind of different answer. (definition of insanity?) Are you hoping to have someone justify to you that your breaking of the WOW, as is explained by our prophets and apostles, is okay so you don't feel guilt or something? You are like a broken record on this point.

Keeping the letter of the law alone is never going to save anyone. If instead you can learn that it was adapted for, "...the weak and weakest of all saints," you would realize that it isn't all inclusive. If someone can't figure out that sodas aren't good for us and they are trying to obey the WOW so that they can learn to take care of their body, it only shows that they are definitely at the bottom of the ladder as to understanding why the WOW was given in the first place.... Temple recommend or not. Obedience for the proper reasons will inevitably lead one to realize that sodas aren't good for us to be drinking anyway, and eventually the person who didn't learn yet, will learn that as well, building yet another line upon the previous line they have already learned. 

I am done explaining this, I suggest you just go back and read the previous posts in this thread, and you will find what was already said addresses your concerns sufficiently to not have to bring it up anymore. You just might realize that not every single thing is dictated for us to do, and that is why, ".....it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant..." (D&C 58:26)

Anyone who is drinking sodas, knowing full well that they are only causing harm to our bodies, therefore making us sick, all because they are allowed to by the letter of the law, is the same type of servant that is referred to in D&C 58:26, IMO.

[Ouagadougou]

29 minutes ago, waveslider said:

"Round and round we go, where it stops....." well that is up to you. I, as well as others, have already explained all of this. You bring up the same old concerns you have already asked about, and that have already been answered, expecting some kind of different answer. (definition of insanity?) Are you hoping to have someone justify to you that your breaking of the WOW, as is explained by our prophets and apostles, is okay so you don't feel guilt or something? You are like a broken record on this point.

Keeping the letter of the law alone is never going to save anyone. If instead you can learn that it was adapted for, "...the weak and weakest of all saints," you would realize that it isn't all inclusive. If someone can't figure out that sodas aren't good for us and they are trying to obey the WOW so that they can learn to take care of their body, it only shows that they are definitely at the bottom of the ladder as to understanding why the WOW was given in the first place.... Temple recommend or not. Obedience for the proper reasons will inevitably lead one to realize that sodas aren't good for us to be drinking anyway, and eventually the person who didn't learn yet, will learn that as well, building yet another line upon the previous line they have already learned. 

I am done explaining this, I suggest you just go back and read the previous posts in this thread, and you will find what was already said addresses your concerns sufficiently to not have to bring it up anymore. You just might realize that not every single thing is dictated for us to do, and that is why, ".....it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant..." (D&C 58:26)

Anyone who is drinking sodas, knowing full well that they are only causing harm to our bodies, therefore making us sick, all because they are allowed to by the letter of the law, is the same type of servant that is referred to in D&C 58:26, IMO.

"Anyone who is drinking sodas, knowing full well that they are only causing harm to our bodies, therefore making us sick, all because they are allowed to by the letter of the law, is the same type of servant that is referred to in D&C 58:26, IMO."

But they can still go to the temple and it's technically ok with God...

[waveslider]

12 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

"Anyone who is drinking sodas, knowing full well that they are only causing harm to our bodies, therefore making us sick, all because they are allowed to by the letter of the law, is the same type of servant that is referred to in D&C 58:26, IMO."

But they can still go to the temple and it's technically ok with God...

You still don't seem to grasp the difference between the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. Heavenly Father is patient with us while we learn, and going to the temple alone isn't necessarily going to get you into the Celestial Kingdom. Like I said perhaps you should go back and reread the previous posts and try to understand what was said about this subject.

[Sleeper Cell]

3 hours ago, Teancum said:

If there is a omniscient God he did not give some silly rule about drinking cofeee and tea that would keep you out of his heaven.

If there really is an omniscient God, he probably knows more about what does and doesn’t constitute a “silly rule” than you and I put together.  

[Teancum]

On 11/12/2016 at 8:06 PM, waveslider said:

It isn't any particular offense that would keep you out from God's presence, since the atonement allows for repentance. But if we are unwilling to become at one with God, by not trying to get in line with His way of thinking, and in keeping our covenants which we have made with Him, in trying to be like Him in our actions as well, we are not utilizing the atonement to it's full capacity, and therefore won't be able to abide His presence.

I really have a hard time thinking that Heaven has a Starbucks somewhere within it, and God goes to get his daily fix of chemicals. I find that when people state emphatically that God did not do something, with nothing more than an opinion to base that thought from, they are in essence saying they are omniscient and are already at one with God. Wake up and realize that you don't know that God didn't make a rule, that was given by direct revelation from Himself, unless of course you can CFR.

Does the irony of your post above really fly past you?

[thesometimesaint]

On 11/12/2016 at 7:16 PM, Ouagadougou said:

"Anyone who is drinking sodas, knowing full well that they are only causing harm to our bodies, therefore making us sick, all because they are allowed to by the letter of the law, is the same type of servant that is referred to in D&C 58:26, IMO."

But they can still go to the temple and it's technically ok with God...

Regardless; I have not agreed to not drink soda's. I have agreed to not drink coffee and/or tea. IE; The ancient and modern Jews agreed to not eat a bacon cheese burger though such didn't exist in ancient times. Evidently non Jews could/can eat all they wanted.

[waveslider]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

Does the irony of your post above really fly past you?

Which part is the irony?

On 11/12/2016 at 3:06 PM, waveslider said:

It isn't any particular offense that would keep you out from God's presence, since the atonement allows for repentance. But if we are unwilling to become at one with God, by not trying to get in line with His way of thinking, and in keeping our covenants which we have made with Him, in trying to be like Him in our actions as well, we are not utilizing the atonement to it's full capacity, and therefore won't be able to abide His presence.

Works don't matter so much as our intent. So even doing works for the wrong reasons will get us sent on our way, out of the presence of our Lord:
"22  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Matthew 7:22-23

Or is this the part you are referring to?

On 11/12/2016 at 3:06 PM, waveslider said:

I really have a hard time thinking that Heaven has a Starbucks somewhere within it, and God goes to get his daily fix of chemicals. I find that when people state emphatically that God did not do something, with nothing more than an opinion to base that thought from, they are in essence saying they are omniscient and are already at one with God. Wake up and realize that you don't know that God didn't make a rule, that was given by direct revelation from Himself, unless of course you can CFR.

The WOW was considered a revelation as a commandment:

“…..In A. Karl Larson’s Book, “I Was Called To Dixie,”….. Larson noted that John Taylor, Young’s successor as Church President, said that he had received a revelation on October 13, 1882, which designated the Word of Wisdom as a Commandment.”

http://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=6038&context=etd

If it's neither of these points, then yes it does fly past me. Please enlighten me as to what the irony is.

[Calm]

I believe the irony Teancum is claiming is you describing what God has created/commanded (your description of what we must do to abide his Presence among other things) while you are otoh claiming that those who emphatically state something about what God does or does not do are in essence claiming omniscience.

He can correct me if I have misread him.

Edited November 14, 2016 by Calm

[waveslider]

40 minutes ago, Calm said:

I believe the irony Teancum is claiming is you describing what God has created/commanded (your description of what we must do to abide his Presence among other things) while you are otoh claiming that those who emphatically state something about what God does or does not do are in essence claiming omniscience.

He can correct me if I have misread him.

Thank you Calm. He must have missed this part of my comment though:

On 11/12/2016 at 3:06 PM, waveslider said:

....with nothing more than an opinion to base that thought from....

 

[Calm]

What difference does that make when what you ground your own ideas in opinion as well?

[FormerLDS]

On ‎11‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 6:22 PM, FormerLDS said:

There is only one LDS definition for "Eternal life".  Look it up.

Never ceases to amaze me how clueless most LDS members are about eternal life even though it is the single most important doctrine in their religion.

"...he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

What does Jesus Christ plainly tell us that "the will of the Father" is?

The rejected of the savior in Matthew 7 clearly believed in Jesus Christ and performed greater works than any Latter-day Saint, yet they were rejected of the Savior because they did not do His will.

How could this be possible?  

Clean up the attitude if you want to stay in the thread.

So, I truly didn't mean this in any sort of derogatory way, but it's true nonetheless (myself included at one time).

FACT: Ask any 10 LDS Christians what they think "Eternal Life" is, and you WILL get 10 different yet similar responses.  I've been doing this for over 30 years now, so I already know.

There is only ONE definition of "Eternal Life" in LDS theology and the fact is, most LDS simply do not understand that doctrine well enough to engage the subject.

Latter-day saint friends, if you support the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as General Authorities of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, then you will have to admit some very basic, fundamental facts about the "Jesus Christ" and the "Eternal Life" which your Church presents as "Truth":

1. You CANNOT HAVE "Eternal Life" during Mortality.  No other way around that.

2. The "Jesus Christ", as presented by the doctrines of your Church, has NEVER yet given "Eternal Life" to anyone.  Not one.  

3. The closest you can get is a "promise" of eternal life (sealed).

4. You cannot have his "gift" of eternal life without FIRST doing all that you can do which includes obey all commandments, ordinances, etc.

 

[thesometimesaint]

Incorrect.

We believe that being perfect like God the Father is perfect is the only requirement for Eternal Life. For everything else there is repentance.

[FormerLDS]

1 hour ago, thesometimesaint said:

Incorrect.

We believe that being perfect like God the Father is perfect is the only requirement for Eternal Life. For everything else there is repentance.

And I'm certain it's safe to assume that "being as perfect as Heavenly Father" doesn't have anything whatsoever to do with obeying the commandments, right?

Seriously.  You just reiterated my whole point. 

[thesometimesaint]

2 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

And I'm certain it's safe to assume that "being as perfect as Heavenly Father" doesn't have anything whatsoever to do with obeying the commandments, right?

Seriously.  You just reiterated my whole point. 

That's the point. Jesus said it. Don't you believe Jesus?

[waveslider]

8 hours ago, Calm said:

What difference does that make when what you ground your own ideas in opinion as well?

I guess it is an opinion about what scripture says, and what prophets have stated they received in revelation, so technically it is still just opinion, but I do see a difference when Teancum just claims something out of the blue the contradicts what I have seen scripture and prophecy teach. I can agree to disagree though and you can believe that something randomly pulled out of the head, with no scripture references nor prophetic statements, equates to what scripture and prophecy seem to be claiming as being hypocritical then so be it.

[Teancum]

22 hours ago, Calm said:

I believe the irony Teancum is claiming is you describing what God has created/commanded (your description of what we must do to abide his Presence among other things) while you are otoh claiming that those who emphatically state something about what God does or does not do are in essence claiming omniscience.

He can correct me if I have misread him.

Correct.