rpn Posted August 15, 2016 Posted August 15, 2016 Quote President Brigham Young (1801–77) helped us better understand the difference between the location of the spirit world and God’s abode: “When you lay down this tabernacle, where are you going? Into the spiritual world. Are you going into Abraham’s bosom? No, not anywhere nigh there but into the spirit world. Where is the spirit world? It is right here. Do the good and evil spirits go together? Yes, they do. Do they both inhabit one kingdom? Yes, they do. Do they go to the sun? No. Do they go beyond the boundaries of the organized earth? No, they do not. They are brought forth upon this earth” (Discourses of Brigham Young, sel. John A. Widtsoe [1954], 376). https://www.lds.org/manual/book-of-mormon-student-manual/chapter-32-alma-40-42?lang=eng Yesterday in Sunday School, the teacher, citing the above from the student institute manual, taught that the spirit world is in a different plane on this earth (class members enlarged by saying they're right next to us, sometimes we turn around and feel like we're bumping into them, and similar). My question is whether there is any reason to belief this is revealtory, and not an adam-god type pronouncement? Is there any other basis for believing it, other than that BY is quoted as having said it? Is D&C138, the only legitimate source of information to be used in church meetings, about the hereafter?
ksfisher Posted August 15, 2016 Posted August 15, 2016 12 minutes ago, rpn said: Yesterday in Sunday School, the teacher, citing the above from the student institute manual, taught that the spirit world is in a different plane on this earth (class members enlarged by saying they're right next to us, sometimes we turn around and feel like we're bumping into them, and similar). My question is whether there is any reason to belief this is revealtory, and not an adam-god type pronouncement? Is there any other basis for believing it, other than that BY is quoted as having said it? Is D&C138, the only legitimate source of information to be used in church meetings, about the hereafter? I would say that the quote from Brigham Young that you've cited reflects President Young's understanding on the matter. Our understanding of gospel principles can change over the course of our lives as we learn and grow. President Young's quote would seem to fall into the realm of personal revelation that is not authoritative or binding upon the members of the church. While the quote may be used for our benefit and learning, it is has not been accepted or taught as church doctrine. D&C 138 on the other hand, has been accepted by the First Presidency, Quorum of the Twelve, and the membership of the church as cannon. The principles outlined in that revelation reflect the official doctrine and beliefs of the church. It is authoritative and binding upon the members of the church in that sense. 1
bsjkki Posted August 15, 2016 Posted August 15, 2016 I found this document that contains quotes from Brigham Young, Parley P Pratt and Harold P Lee about this topic. Page 2 contains the relevant quotes about the location of spirit prison. http://emp.byui.edu/satterfieldb/pdf/spiritworld.pdf 1
Jeanne Posted August 15, 2016 Posted August 15, 2016 I have heard this before. The veil is just very thin..if we had spiritual eyes we could see them among us. At least that is what was told to me in Seminary years ago.
stemelbow Posted August 15, 2016 Posted August 15, 2016 Thanks to this teaching I've learned to embrace my true exhibitionist self. I always had a sense that people were spying on me naked. It was quite freeing to learn billions were already sitting around me when I took my pants down. 2
Tacenda Posted August 15, 2016 Posted August 15, 2016 I'm quite jealous of those that can speak to the spirits, or have spirits speaking to them. I believe wholeheartedly that they do, just wish I had that gift. 1
Calm Posted August 15, 2016 Posted August 15, 2016 It is also taught in the GP manual: https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-41-the-postmortal-spirit-world?lang=eng And BY's quote is in the EoM: http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Spirit_World So doctrine, but it doesn't explain the source (where revealed if it was). In the EoM, they quote JFS saying spirits are taken home to God. So depending on what he meant by that, it could be a conflict. 1
JAHS Posted August 15, 2016 Posted August 15, 2016 Here's a few more quotes Elder Parley P. Pratt said of the Spirit World: "As to its location, it is here on the very planet where we were born; or, in other words, the earth and other planets of a like sphere, have their inward or spiritual spheres, as well as their outward, or temporal. The one is peopled by temporal tabernacles, and the other by spirits. A veil is drawn between the one sphere and the other, whereby all the objects in the spiritual sphere are rendered invisible to those in the temporal."(JD 3:368-69; KT, 132-33). Joseph Smith said, regarding the spirits of the righteous, not only are they "not far from us" but they "know and understand our thoughts, feelings, and motions, and are often pained therewith" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 326). Brigham Young suggested that those on the other side are at least aware of our redeeming efforts on their behalf:"Through our efforts in their behalf their chains of bondage will fall from them, and the darkness surrounding them will clear away, that light may shine upon them and they shall hear in the spirit world of the work that has been done for them by their children here and will rejoice with you in your performance of these duties. (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 12:163-164) President Joseph F. Smith said: "For I believe that those who have been chosen in this dispensation and in former dispensations, to lay the foundation of God's work in the midst of the children of men, for their salvation and exaltation, will not be deprived in the spirit world from looking down upon the results of their own labors, efforts and mission assigned them by the wisdom and purpose of God, to help to redeem and to reclaim the children of the Father from their sins. So I feel quite confident that the eye of Joseph, the prophet, and of the martyrs of this dispensation, and of Brigham, and John, and Wilford, and those faithful men who were associated with them in their ministry upon the earth, are carefully guarding the interests of the kingdom of God in which they labored and for which they strove during their mortal lives. I believe they are as deeply interested in our welfare today, if not with greater capacity, with far more interest, behind the veil, than they were in the flesh. " (Selections from the Sermons and Writings of Joseph F. Smith) These are all what I would call inspired opinions rather than official church doctrines on this subject. The spirit world is probably not in the same place that God resides now, so if not on this planet where else would it be?
stemelbow Posted August 15, 2016 Posted August 15, 2016 3 minutes ago, JAHS said: Here's a few more quotes Elder Parley P. Pratt said of the Spirit World: "As to its location, it is here on the very planet where we were born; or, in other words, the earth and other planets of a like sphere, have their inward or spiritual spheres, as well as their outward, or temporal. The one is peopled by temporal tabernacles, and the other by spirits. A veil is drawn between the one sphere and the other, whereby all the objects in the spiritual sphere are rendered invisible to those in the temporal."(JD 3:368-69; KT, 132-33). Joseph Smith said, regarding the spirits of the righteous, not only are they "not far from us" but they "know and understand our thoughts, feelings, and motions, and are often pained therewith" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 326). Brigham Young suggested that those on the other side are at least aware of our redeeming efforts on their behalf:"Through our efforts in their behalf their chains of bondage will fall from them, and the darkness surrounding them will clear away, that light may shine upon them and they shall hear in the spirit world of the work that has been done for them by their children here and will rejoice with you in your performance of these duties. (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 12:163-164) President Joseph F. Smith said: "For I believe that those who have been chosen in this dispensation and in former dispensations, to lay the foundation of God's work in the midst of the children of men, for their salvation and exaltation, will not be deprived in the spirit world from looking down upon the results of their own labors, efforts and mission assigned them by the wisdom and purpose of God, to help to redeem and to reclaim the children of the Father from their sins. So I feel quite confident that the eye of Joseph, the prophet, and of the martyrs of this dispensation, and of Brigham, and John, and Wilford, and those faithful men who were associated with them in their ministry upon the earth, are carefully guarding the interests of the kingdom of God in which they labored and for which they strove during their mortal lives. I believe they are as deeply interested in our welfare today, if not with greater capacity, with far more interest, behind the veil, than they were in the flesh. " (Selections from the Sermons and Writings of Joseph F. Smith) These are all what I would call inspired opinions rather than official church doctrines on this subject. The spirit world is probably not in the same place that God resides now, so if not on this planet where else would it be? Don't hesitate to add this quote to your list: Stemelbow: "mmm...probably...could be. Why not? The spirit world is here on earth. No point in thinking it's found elsewhere. The universe is too big for us to fathom anyway. what do we think that world will be found on another planet to house the estimated 100 billion spirits who ever lived simultaneously?" 1
Jeanne Posted August 15, 2016 Posted August 15, 2016 Just a question off hand..no need to start a different topic..but have any of you heard that those who commit suicide are here..in limbo..a sort of punishment?
Tacenda Posted August 15, 2016 Posted August 15, 2016 30 minutes ago, Jeanne said: Just a question off hand..no need to start a different topic..but have any of you heard that those who commit suicide are here..in limbo..a sort of punishment? I have before or that they are in total darkness. Also, have heard of those spirits that are unable to move on for various reasons and need help getting to the other side. 1
Calm Posted August 15, 2016 Posted August 15, 2016 50 minutes ago, Jeanne said: Just a question off hand..no need to start a different topic..but have any of you heard that those who commit suicide are here..in limbo..a sort of punishment? Not me among LDS.
Jeanne Posted August 15, 2016 Posted August 15, 2016 27 minutes ago, Tacenda said: I have before or that they are in total darkness. Also, have heard of those spirits that are unable to move on for various reasons and need help getting to the other side. That is kind of what I heard. Perhaps I got that from some books I have read on NDE's. Thanks.
Jeanne Posted August 15, 2016 Posted August 15, 2016 10 minutes ago, Calm said: Not me among LDS. Good deal. As posted above, I think I have read this in NDE's. It always bothered me though. I don't remember real discussions on that in church Thanks!
Calm Posted August 15, 2016 Posted August 15, 2016 I have heard this among the new age stuff and it might have bled into some of the LDS writers who go there like Rowe, but if so I don't think it has caught on. Generallyspeaking there is a very compassionate attitude towards suicides these days in the Church and I think most would find that as inappropriate if they didn't understand it was false doctrine. 1
waveslider Posted August 15, 2016 Posted August 15, 2016 4 hours ago, Tacenda said: I'm quite jealous of those that can speak to the spirits, or have spirits speaking to them. I believe wholeheartedly that they do, just wish I had that gift. Be careful what you wish for. Instead of wanting the gift of talking to spirits, I would first suggest wanting to have discernment as to who those spirits truly are. There are after all a third of the host of heaven who want to deceive us in anyway possible. This includes using the veil of forgetfulness to their advantage, since they don't have one. They can see absolutely every aspect of any individual's Earthly life, even those aspects that the individual thinks no one saw, or knew about. They will try to convince you that they are a person who has died, and was near to us, but in reality they are only demons in disguise, posing as a trusted spirit. It can be very convincing by telling us things that we think only that person would know. It can be very dangerous to listen to what spirits tell people who are sensitive enough to hear them. Often times they will sound very good, offering good advice, and slip in just enough evil to get us to turn from God, a little bit at a time. Hint; if you are channeling anything it isn't going to be good spirits that come to the call. If you are praying, in all sincerity to God, through Christ, you will be able to know if an evil spirit comes to deceive you, and can be completely assured your answers are coming from the God, via the Holy Spirit.
theplains Posted August 15, 2016 Posted August 15, 2016 5 hours ago, rpn said: Is D&C138, the only legitimate source of information to be used in church meetings, about the hereafter? Church manuals, magazines, and conference talks are also authoritative in my opinion. Jim
Robert F. Smith Posted August 16, 2016 Posted August 16, 2016 8 hours ago, Jeanne said: I have heard this before. The veil is just very thin..if we had spiritual eyes we could see them among us. At least that is what was told to me in Seminary years ago. Here's one notion of how bad guys go to spirit prison: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Y2wqkD2KVM , and And here's how the good guys go https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=895PZQJK5TM .
Guest Posted August 16, 2016 Posted August 16, 2016 It is here, just as with those who have died, lived here. Man was created from the dust of the earth, and returns to it, our spirits remain here as well. The Earth will become our Celestial Kingdom, this is scripture...not something BY thought up.
Robert F. Smith Posted August 16, 2016 Posted August 16, 2016 9 hours ago, rpn said: Yesterday in Sunday School, the teacher, citing the above from the student institute manual, taught that the spirit world is in a different plane on this earth (class members enlarged by saying they're right next to us, sometimes we turn around and feel like we're bumping into them, and similar). That was pretty much the experience of non-Mormon psychiatrist George G. Ritchie, before he even had a medical degree, when he died far from home in Texas, in his recollections in Return from Tomorrow (1978), online at https://www.scribd.com/book/234998284/Return-from-Tomorrow . 9 hours ago, rpn said: ............................................................Is D&C138, the only legitimate source of information to be used in church meetings, about the hereafter? While D&C 138 is an excellent source, it is not the only one: The afterlife is multi-leveled: "Hell" in KJ English translates three different Greek words. In 2 Peter 2:4, Greek tartaros “abyss, deep,” is the lowest level of Hell, below Hades. It is the prison of the mythical Titans (Liddell & Scott, Intermediate Greek-English Lexicon, 793). Other words used for “hell” in the NT are Greek geena (= Hebrew ge-hinnom) in Matthew 5:22, etc., and Greek hades in Matthew 11:23, etc. Moreover, in Luke 23:43, Jesus tells the thief next to him on the cross that he will be with him in "paradise" that day. The term used there is a late Persian term taken over into LXX Greek paradeisos and into late Hebrew as pardes. The LXX OT uses it to translate the Hebrew for "Garden of Eden" in Genesis and elsewhere. The note to Lk 23:43 in the 1991 New Oxford Annotated Bible (NRSV) says, "Paradise (like "Abraham's bosom" in 16:22) was a contemporary Jewish term for the lodging place of the righteous dead prior to resurrection." There is thus, according to Luke 16:19-26, a vast gulf between the place of the righteous and the place of the unrighteous in the afterlife. In referring to Matt 27:52-53 (rising up of the righteous dead), the New Jerusalem Bible suggests that it is an “allusion to Christ’s deliverance, between his death and his resurrection, of the ‘holy ones’, that is the upright who were waiting for him” (1 Pt 3:19 note h; see also Matt 27:52 note x). That is, immediately following his death and while still in the tomb, Jesus went in the spirit to preach to the spirits in “prison” phylake (1 Pt 3:18-19, 4:6; cf. Lk 1:79). Intercession may be made for souls in Hell, in the Sibylline Oracles 2:330-338 (Charlesworth, Old Testament Pseudepigrapha, I:333-334, 353), just as it is in 2 Maccabees 12:40-45 (temple offerings for the dead), and 1 Corinthians 15:29 (baptism for the dead).
Jeanne Posted August 16, 2016 Posted August 16, 2016 58 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: Here's one notion of how bad guys go to spirit prison: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Y2wqkD2KVM , and And here's how the good guys go https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=895PZQJK5TM . That was a good show..a tear jerker..but that part really gave me the willies!
carbon dioxide Posted August 16, 2016 Posted August 16, 2016 13 hours ago, rpn said: Yesterday in Sunday School, the teacher, citing the above from the student institute manual, taught that the spirit world is in a different plane on this earth (class members enlarged by saying they're right next to us, sometimes we turn around and feel like we're bumping into them, and similar). Here is a couple of statements that Barry Bickmore mentioned that I think are related "By ourselves the lower regions (of Hades) are not supposed to be a bare cavity, nor some subterranean sewer of the world, but a vast deep space in the interior of the earth, and a concealed recess in its very bowels; inasmuch as we read that Christ in His death spent three days in the heart of the earth . . . . Now although Christ is God, yet, being also man, "He died according to the Scriptures," and "according to the same Scriptures was buried." With the same law of His being He fully complied, by remaining in Hades in the form and condition of a dead man; nor did He ascend into the heights of heaven before descending into the lower parts of the earth, that He might there make the patriarchs and prophets partakers of Himself. (This being the case), you must suppose Hades to be a subterranean region, and keep at arm's length those who are too proud to believe that the souls of the faithful deserve a place in the lower regions." (Tertullian, On the Soul 55, in Ante-Niceane Fathers 3:231) "I think, therefore, that all the saints who depart form this life will remain in some place situated on the earth, which holy Scripture calls paradise, as in some place of instruction, and, so to speak, class-room or school of souls, in which they are to be instructed regarding all the things which they had seen on earth, and are to receive also some information respecting things that are to follow in the future..." (Origen, De Principiis 2:11:6, in Ante-Niceane Fathers 4:299)
Recommended Posts