Bishop Bans Electronic Devices

[Oliver_Cowdery]

8 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

It stands to reason.

Don't you think the prophets and apostles pray frequently in the course of their callings and roles?

And I know enough of the process of receiving revelation to surmise that they, by virtue of their sacred callings, are apt to receive revelation frequently, very often if not most frequently in answer to prayers. And that, by virtue of their callings, it would be revelation that pertains to administering the affairs of the entire Church.

I'm not sure why you would ask that question. The answer strikes me as Mormonism 101.

It is Mormonism 101.  And yet it is also a very big unsupported assumption to assume the leaders are in consistent contact with Jesus; especially when stated as fact.  It is more precise to say that Mormons believe their leaders are in continual contact with Jesus Christ. Many members also believe their leaders are visited by Christ in person.  However, this is just again another unsupported belief.  What people believe doesn't always correlate well with reality.

Edited November 7, 2016 by Oliver_Cowdery

[HappyJackWagon]

11 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Even then, I think it would be awfully weird and presumptuous, if not discourteous, to treat a visiting General Authority or general Church officer that way. If I were a member of the local congregation, I would be embarrassed if I heard it happened.

 

Yep. It would be really rude to tell a visiting official not to use their electronic devices in proper and responsible ways.

And it is just as rude to tell that to the average member.

[HappyJackWagon]

2 minutes ago, Oliver_Cowdery said:

It is Mormonism 101.  And yet it is also a very big unsupported assumption, especially when stated as fact.  It is more precise to say that Mormons believe their leaders are in continual contact with Jesus Christ. Many members also believe their leaders are visited by Christ in person.  However, this is just again another unsupported belief.  What people believe doesn't always correlate well with reality.

"Continual contact with Jesus" and "revelation" or "inspiration" are not necessarily the same thing. Continual contact with Jesus implies personal visitation from Jesus since the Holy Ghost is primarily responsible for making the truth of all things know, ie. answering questions.

[Scott Lloyd]

3 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Yep. It would be really rude to tell a visiting official not to use their electronic devices in proper and responsible ways.

And it is just as rude to tell that to the average member.

When a visiting authority or officer comes, the assumed relationship is teacher-to-learner. This entitles the visitor to some degree of deference and respect.

But even setting that aside, it would be highly discourteous to invite a visitor to come provide instruction and at the same time, forbid her from using one of her tools of teaching.

[Scott Lloyd]

3 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

"Continual contact with Jesus" and "revelation" or "inspiration" are not necessarily the same thing. Continual contact with Jesus implies personal visitation from Jesus since the Holy Ghost is primarily responsible for making the truth of all things know, ie. answering questions.

Personal visitation is not what I meant to imply exclusively with my wording. The Holy Ghost is the means by which Christ communicates with His prophets and apostles.

That said, I don't buy it that there is some sort of hierarchy whereby the prompting of the still, small voice is viewed as somehow less valid than a dream or a vision. To me, revelation is revelation. What we are wont to call divine inspiration is simply one form of revelation.

 

[cinepro]

5 hours ago, sdc999 said:

Nothing like getting to the root of the problem.   "Why" have you had that problem?  Usually when someone chooses the alternative it is because it is way more interesting than the primary.  How come the speakers have never been addressed?  "Brother Speaker, we have had a significant problem with members playing games and surfing the net on their electronic devices during church.  Could you please make sure your talk is informative, attention grabbing and worth listening to?"  

I have heard it said several times that speaking in church has helped people to speak better in public.  If this is the goal, then sell it as such.  Tell the members that they are most likely going to hear some terrible talks given but it is their obligation to give pure attention to achieve a higher goal. 

Sorry to break it to you, but the problem isn't the quality of the talks or instruction.

The last few times I have ventured to a movie theater to watch a film, there are always people on their phones.  So what you are saying is, in effect, "Brother Speaker, we have had a significant problem with member playing games and surfing on the net on their electronic devices during Church.  Could you please make sure your talk or lesson is more interesting and compelling than "Star Wars Episode VII", "Jurassic World", "Captain America: Civil War" and "Jack Reacher: Never Go Back"?"

The idea is absurd.  People aren't on their phones only because they are bored.  They are on their phones because they are addicted.  There is no degree of quality that can be achieved in a Church talk or lesson that will get addicts to say to themselves "Wow, this is so interesting I'm going to willingly set aside my Facebook, texting and email so I can listen without interruption for an hour."  Some may be able to do it, but it takes discipline and self control, and most people don't see it as a problem worth taking the effort to fix.

 

 

 

[bluebell]

11 minutes ago, cinepro said:

Sorry to break it to you, but the problem isn't the quality of the talks or instruction.

The last few times I have ventured to a movie theater to watch a film, there are always people on their phones.  So what you are saying is, in effect, "Brother Speaker, we have had a significant problem with member playing games and surfing on the net on their electronic devices during Church.  Could you please make sure your talk or lesson is more interesting and compelling than "Star Wars Episode VII", "Jurassic World", "Captain America: Civil War" and "Jack Reacher: Never Go Back"?"

The idea is absurd.  People aren't on their phones only because they are bored.  They are on their phones because they are addicted.  There is no degree of quality that can be achieved in a Church talk or lesson that will get addicts to say to themselves "Wow, this is so interesting I'm going to willingly set aside my Facebook, texting and email so I can listen without interruption for an hour."  Some may be able to do it, but it takes discipline and self control, and most people don't see it as a problem worth taking the effort to fix.

 

 

 

This is so true.  Lately i've noticed that i can't even watch a t.v. show of my own choosing without also having my phone in my hands so i can check things periodically.  It's definitely a problem i need to work on.  

[Gray]

21 minutes ago, cinepro said:

Sorry to break it to you, but the problem isn't the quality of the talks or instruction.

The last few times I have ventured to a movie theater to watch a film, there are always people on their phones.  So what you are saying is, in effect, "Brother Speaker, we have had a significant problem with member playing games and surfing on the net on their electronic devices during Church.  Could you please make sure your talk or lesson is more interesting and compelling than "Star Wars Episode VII", "Jurassic World", "Captain America: Civil War" and "Jack Reacher: Never Go Back"?"

The idea is absurd.  People aren't on their phones only because they are bored.  They are on their phones because they are addicted.  There is no degree of quality that can be achieved in a Church talk or lesson that will get addicts to say to themselves "Wow, this is so interesting I'm going to willingly set aside my Facebook, texting and email so I can listen without interruption for an hour."  Some may be able to do it, but it takes discipline and self control, and most people don't see it as a problem worth taking the effort to fix.

 

All true, but let's be honest - most talks are very, very boring. 

[Thinking]

6 hours ago, sdc999 said:

How come the speakers have never been addressed?  "Brother Speaker, we have had a significant problem with members playing games and surfing the net on their electronic devices during church.  Could you please make sure your talk is informative, attention grabbing and worth listening to?"  

Right. Blame the untrained lay speakers, who are different each week.

[Jeanne]

At work..everybody uses the calculators on their phones to do our production sheets..how much we need of everything.  I don't own one so they find pieces of paper of mine with long division all over it...they are wondering..what the heck is that???

[mnn727]

On 10/20/2016 at 11:59 AM, Jeanne said:

I still stand all amazed.  I understand what members are going through in a way...but to have conversations on this board about pioneers trekking to Utah..handcart people...and the persicution of Saints..I find it funny that one cannot go 90 minutes without an electronic device. 

Spoken like someone who still carried paper scriptures.

[Jeanne]

Just now, mnn727 said:

Spoken like someone who still carried paper scriptures.

I love books...and still have my quad in leather..tucked inside the zipper are all my favorite pics and quotes.

[Thinking]

On 7/3/2016 at 6:36 PM, 6EQUJ5 said:

Sacrament meeting today was incredible.  Very reverent and quiet.   Everyone was attentive and the talks were excellent.

Lots of people attended in the RS room.  They did take the sacrament there.

Anyway, I can see the positive impact of our Bishop's counsel already.

On 10/11/2016 at 8:40 AM, 6EQUJ5 said:

The policy is in effect and has been a real blessing, IMO.  At the encouragement of our Stake President some other wards have taken up the policy too. 

There were complaints at first but they have fizzled out. I think folks just needed a chance to see how it would play out.  And I think most ward members have come to see the wisdom of our Bishop.

It's amazing to me that after these reports, some posters on this board are still critical of the bishop.

The addiction to portable electronic devices reminds of an episode of Star Trek TNG. An alien race introduces an addictive game to the crew in order to gain control of the Enterprise.

 

[mnn727]

6 hours ago, sdc999 said:

  "Brother Speaker, we have had a significant problem with members playing games and surfing the net on their electronic devices during church.  Could you please make sure your talk is informative, attention grabbing and worth listening to?"  

 

Oh please, are you really going to come out and state the actual problem?

The problem is not electronic devices, the problem is poor or boring talks.

[mnn727]

24 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I love books...and still have my quad in leather..tucked inside the zipper are all my favorite pics and quotes.

I love electronics, not only do I have entire libraries on it, I also have pics of my family and books of quotes. and you know, my phone weight about 5 or 6 ounces, compared to the 5 or 6 pounds of my large print scriptures.

 

An no, I'm not addicted, I don't facebook or snapchat or tweet or whatever else people do. I barely text,  I never ever watch a movie or even a YouTube on the phone. I can go hours or even days without even looking at my phone. My phone died a few months back and it took me a week to get a replacement - no biggie, didn't miss it except when I had to get out my hard copy scriptures and find a Presidents of the Church manual to lug to Church.

 

Edited November 7, 2016 by mnn727

[Jeanne]

1 minute ago, mnn727 said:

I love electronics, not only do I have entire libraries on it, I also have pics of my family and books of quotes. and you know, my phone weight about 5 or 6 ounces, compared to the 5 or 6 pounds of my large print scriptures.

Then we both have the best of both worlds.

[rongo]

46 minutes ago, cinepro said:

Sorry to break it to you, but the problem isn't the quality of the talks or instruction.

The last few times I have ventured to a movie theater to watch a film, there are always people on their phones.  So what you are saying is, in effect, "Brother Speaker, we have had a significant problem with member playing games and surfing on the net on their electronic devices during Church.  Could you please make sure your talk or lesson is more interesting and compelling than "Star Wars Episode VII", "Jurassic World", "Captain America: Civil War" and "Jack Reacher: Never Go Back"?"

The idea is absurd.  People aren't on their phones only because they are bored.  They are on their phones because they are addicted.  There is no degree of quality that can be achieved in a Church talk or lesson that will get addicts to say to themselves "Wow, this is so interesting I'm going to willingly set aside my Facebook, texting and email so I can listen without interruption for an hour."  Some may be able to do it, but it takes discipline and self control, and most people don't see it as a problem worth taking the effort to fix.

Not only this, but I think short attention spans/propensity of being bored goes hand in hand with the electronics addiction. Chicken or the egg?

I think that's the thing the bishop is actually addressing, here. Even people who "appropriately" use their electronics at church, with no game-playing, Pinterest/Facebook/MDDB/ESPN checking, etc., constantly open and close programs and apps to assuage the addiction. And they feel withdrawal symptoms if they had to go old-school, with paper and books only. 

I'm seeing that my family is a dying breed. My kids are universally known as gospel and academic scholars (my son is ranked #1 in the junior class), but we have no smart phones, tablets, etc. My kids don't have phones, and I'd love to get rid of our cell phone (I have it as a bishop because many people are increasingly only reachable via text. They don't answer the phone or return voice mails). We read books and know where and how to find what we've read in them (I myself have self-made indexes in three-ring binders from many different things). When people marvel at my family's vast storehouse of knowledge, I think, "Well, you only know how to do key word searches in Google or LDS tools." Key word searches are not a substitute for actually knowing things through experience and reading --- and they are a contributing factor in the boring talk trend, because people search their topic, take a couple of the top-ranking results, and regurgitate conference talks, often by simply re-reading them. I really enjoy hearing from older members who predate the "information age," because they use anecdotes, scripture knowledge, and life experience in talks (yes, there are boring people in the older age group, too, but overall, their independence from the "information age" improves their talk quality).

When I was a missionary, I purposely used a separate Einheitsübersetzung (German joint Catholic/Lutheran translation), missionary Book of Mormon (same one we gave the investigator), D&C, and PoGP when teaching to visualize the separate books and how they go together. I hope we never have a worldwide "paper-free" movement in missionary work, with books introduced in e-format. Yikes!

[rongo]

14 minutes ago, mnn727 said:

I love electronics, not only do I have entire libraries on it, I also have pics of my family and books of quotes. and you know, my phone weight about 5 or 6 ounces, compared to the 5 or 6 pounds of my large print scriptures.

An no, I'm not addicted, I don't facebook or snapchat or tweet or whatever else people do. I barely text,  I never ever watch a movie or even a YouTube on the phone. I can go hours or even days without even looking at my phone. My phone died a few months back and it took me a week to get a replacement - no biggie, didn't miss it except when I had to get out my hard copy scriptures and find a Presidents of the Church manual to lug to Church.

People are different! I actually enjoy "lugging" my large-print scriptures around. I would do that in a heartbeat to read paper instead of scrolling on a screen.

[HappyJackWagon]

1 hour ago, cinepro said:

Sorry to break it to you, but the problem isn't the quality of the talks or instruction.

The last few times I have ventured to a movie theater to watch a film, there are always people on their phones.  So what you are saying is, in effect, "Brother Speaker, we have had a significant problem with member playing games and surfing on the net on their electronic devices during Church.  Could you please make sure your talk or lesson is more interesting and compelling than "Star Wars Episode VII", "Jurassic World", "Captain America: Civil War" and "Jack Reacher: Never Go Back"?"

The idea is absurd.  People aren't on their phones only because they are bored.  They are on their phones because they are addicted.  There is no degree of quality that can be achieved in a Church talk or lesson that will get addicts to say to themselves "Wow, this is so interesting I'm going to willingly set aside my Facebook, texting and email so I can listen without interruption for an hour."  Some may be able to do it, but it takes discipline and self control, and most people don't see it as a problem worth taking the effort to fix.

 

I don't want to derail this into a discussion about addiction but I don't want to let what may be a popular opinion pass as fact without a challenge. While something like social media usage may carry some behavioral patterns like addiction, I don't believe it is truly an "addiction." IMO- real addiction is too serious of an issue to label every bad behavior or habit as an addiction. Arguing that social media usage triggers neurological receptors similar to addictive drugs is silly because those same receptors are triggered whenever a person learns anything, watches tv, plays a game etc.

Quote

What Is Addiction?

Addiction is a condition that results when a person ingests a substance (e.g., alcohol, cocaine, nicotine) or engages in an activity (e.g., gambling, sex, shopping) that can be pleasurable but the continued use/act of which becomes compulsive and interferes with ordinary life responsibilities, such as work, relationships, or health. Users may not be aware that their behavior is out of control and causing problems for themselves and others.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/basics/addiction

"Out of control" can be defined differently by different people, but it would be a huge stretch to say that someone getting on their phone during a boring talk is an addict.

Also, while I agree that the speakers cannot carry the sole blame, it would be unreasonable not to recognize that they do have an impact. As someone earlier mentioned, if the electronic device is a better alternative to sitting and listening, the person will use the device. There are many reasons why a person may not be engaged with the speaker; the talk could be boring, the topic could be repetitive or uninteresting, the speakers voice may be difficult to listen to, etc. etc. There are many reasons but lets be honest, it is unreasonable to think that every person will connect with every speaker on every topic. Not going to happen. And it has nothing to do with addiction.

 

Edited November 7, 2016 by HappyJackWagon

[Scott Lloyd]

26 minutes ago, mnn727 said:

I love electronics, not only do I have entire libraries on it, I also have pics of my family and books of quotes. and you know, my phone weight about 5 or 6 ounces, compared to the 5 or 6 pounds of my large print scriptures.

 

An no, I'm not addicted, I don't facebook or snapchat or tweet or whatever else people do. I barely text,  I never ever watch a movie or even a YouTube on the phone. I can go hours or even days without even looking at my phone. My phone died a few months back and it took me a week to get a replacement - no biggie, didn't miss it except when I had to get out my hard copy scriptures and find a Presidents of the Church manual to lug to Church.

 

I have no trouble finding content in hard-copy scriptures if need be, though I haven't read, studied or taught regularly with anything other than digital forms in nearly two decades.

Hard-copy scriptures don't do people much good if they never learn to use the Topical Guide, Index, Bible Dictionary, footnotes, cross-references or other study aids. I'm afraid many don't.

It's a matter of learning to use the tools that are at one's disposal, be they on paper or in digital form.

 

 

[Scott Lloyd]

16 minutes ago, rongo said:

Not only this, but I think short attention spans/propensity of being bored goes hand in hand with the electronics addiction. Chicken or the egg?

I think that's the thing the bishop is actually addressing, here. Even people who "appropriately" use their electronics at church, with no game-playing, Pinterest/Facebook/MDDB/ESPN checking, etc., constantly open and close programs and apps to assuage the addiction. And they feel withdrawal symptoms if they had to go old-school, with paper and books only. 

 

So it's as I suspected, then, from the OP of this thread. The bishop doesn't have a problem with people playing games or net surfing during meeting. Rather, he, like you, has a thing against using digital devices, and by criminey, he's going to use whatever power he has to forbid it among others under his control.

I hope that's not altogether the case, but I found myself wondering today whether he would have disapproved of two out of the five general auxiliary presidents using their iPads during the worldwide broadcast on Saturday.

[HappyJackWagon]

We had a regional conference broadcast yesterday that we skipped in favor of a Methodist service a friend invited us to attend. None of my children pulled out a phone or got on their tablets during the service and we hadn't said anything to them about it. After church I asked why none of them got on their phones and each of them told me they hadn't even thought of getting their phone out. They were engaged in the service. They stood to sing, they listened to the pastor give an interesting talk, they partook of communion, and my teenage son even donated his own money when the plate was passed around.

The service engaged them like our LDS services don't. Part of that could have been the relative novelty (we've only been there a few times) but part of it was simply that the structure of the meeting required them to pay better attention. It wasn't merely a sit and listen for 1 hour 15 minutes. A standard sacrament meeting isn't participatory at all, except for receiving the sacrament and passing it along. That's it. Speakers aren't even permitted to encourage members to turn in their scriptures to follow along.

So in my view, it's not merely a matter of untrained, uninspiring speakers (though that is often the case). I find the actual structure of the meeting to be part of the problem. For heavens sakes, we call it a "meeting". Sounds inspiring, right?

[Teancum]

On ‎10‎/‎20‎/‎2016 at 3:00 PM, DrClump said:

Rongo, He said that we can't take a day off from our callings. He tried using the handbook to justify his stance (I can't remember what he quoted it was about 6 years ago), but my Stake President likes to make his own interpretations of the handbook when he sees convenient. He asked me, who is going to fill in for you as Bishop on Father's Day? 

I was so upset! Every year when Mother's Day approached he would tell us in Bishop's training that we are not to give Sisters a day off from their callings. When he would say this he would always looks in my direction.

It was so hard for me to let the Sisters know that I wasn't going to follow through with my original plan. I couldn't get through the conversation without crying because all I wanted to do for the Sisters was give them a break. The Sisters knew that this direction came from the SP.  I didn't have to tell them.

I spoke to my brother about it who was serving in a Bishopric in a different state and he said that his Stake Presidency was encouraging Bishops to allow the Sisters a day off from their callings on Mother's Day. 

We always make sure the women are free from callings on Mother's Day.  Our RS always plans a special meeting and more social type activity as well in the building cultural hall.  We have been doing this forever.  Did it when I was a bishop.  I think we did it before that and continue to do so.  The men take over primary and YM and YW meet jointly that day.  We never even considered asking the SP if we could do that.  But I know our SPs would have been ok with it.

[rongo]

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

We had a regional conference broadcast yesterday that we skipped in favor of a Methodist service a friend invited us to attend. None of my children pulled out a phone or got on their tablets during the service and we hadn't said anything to them about it. After church I asked why none of them got on their phones and each of them told me they hadn't even thought of getting their phone out. They were engaged in the service. They stood to sing, they listened to the pastor give an interesting talk, they partook of communion, and my teenage son even donated his own money when the plate was passed around.

This is interesting. Are your children on their devices during an LDS sacrament meeting? Just curious.

I was glad to read that your children "hadn't even thought of getting, their phone out," and I thought that part of that might be that they were at another church and wanted to be respectful. It would be rude to go to another church's service and be playing on your phone, and this would probably be a subtle incentive for people not to be disrespectful. And this made me think that "familiarity might bring contempt" in our services --- because these are our meetings, many might be more inclined to be more casual and less-respectful, and use their devices often when they would not do it in another service out of respect. 

Kind of how family often are more rude to each other when they wouldn't dream of being that rude to people outside of the family. 

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

We had a regional conference broadcast yesterday that we skipped in favor of a Methodist service a friend invited us to attend. None of my children pulled out a phone or got on their tablets during the service and we hadn't said anything to them about it. After church I asked why none of them got on their phones and each of them told me they hadn't even thought of getting their phone out. They were engaged in the service. They stood to sing, they listened to the pastor give an interesting talk, they partook of communion, and my teenage son even donated his own money when the plate was passed around.

The service engaged them like our LDS services don't. Part of that could have been the relative novelty (we've only been there a few times) but part of it was simply that the structure of the meeting required them to pay better attention. It wasn't merely a sit and listen for 1 hour 15 minutes. A standard sacrament meeting isn't participatory at all, except for receiving the sacrament and passing it along. That's it. Speakers aren't even permitted to encourage members to turn in their scriptures to follow along.

So in my view, it's not merely a matter of untrained, uninspiring speakers (though that is often the case). I find the actual structure of the meeting to be part of the problem. For heavens sakes, we call it a "meeting". Sounds inspiring, right?

To be fair, you must acknowledge that LDS services also involve singing by the congregation. So it is participatory in that respect as well. I wish we were more exuberant and vibrant in our singing, but we do sing.

Also, most wards have a choir, and generally, everyone is invited to come to practices and prepare for choir performances during sacrament meetings.

It's a sore point with me right now, because I'm ward choir director, and I'm having a tough time getting enough people to come to practices so we can prepare for performances, but I find it difficult to accept a complaint that our services aren't participatory enough when we don't avail ourselves of what opportunities we do have to participate, which include singing in congregations and in choirs.

 

Edited November 7, 2016 by Scott Lloyd