Does God Really Exist or is the Notion of a God a figment of our Imagination

[Jim Stiles]

1 hour ago, Pa Pa said:

I know God exists, and I see evidence in almost everything. My imagination is not so great to conjure up God. There have been times in my life where angry and rebellious where I wanted to deny his existence for the sake of convience, or rather sacrifice him on the altar of convience, but always an Angel stayed y hand. 

The cosmological argument does not work for the Mormon God because the Mormon God is merely matter that organized preexisting matter.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmological_argument

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/131.7-8?lang=eng#6

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D&C 131:7-8 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes; We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter.

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In order to understand the subject of the dead, for the consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it is necessary that we should understand the character and being of God, and how he came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity, I will refute that idea, and will take away and do away the [veil], so that you may see. -- Joseph Smith Jr., King Follett Discourse, April 1844.

Therefore, the Mormon God is inferior to the God of the Bible, who created the universe out of nothing.

Edited April 29, 2016 by Jim Stiles
spelling and content

[Guest]

We worship the God and creator of all, the God who can do all things. But thank you for your anti-Mormon comments. It always great when someone comes here to insult our God and us. I was unaware this was an ex-nilo thread. (hope I spell that right), would not want to have something else to insult me about. 

[CV75]

2 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

http://science.howstuffworks.com/life/endorphins2.htm

No. You do not understand my question. Humans are not stress, pain or any of the bullets items in the article.

[Monster]

God may exist or he may not. My view is we should not try to answer this question because there never has been a way to prove. We should not live our lives wondering if God exists. That is a waste of time. If he does exist and wants us to know it, he will get the message to us. And no I am not talking about some guy who claims god talks to him and we need to all do what he says. God would have to appear to us collectively or individually.

In the meantime go live your life the best you can.

[JLHPROF]

2 hours ago, Jim Stiles said:

Therefore, the Mormon God is inferior to the God of the Bible, who created the universe out of nothing.

Fortunately that "Biblical" God that makes things out of nothing is purely imaginary.
Not because I disagree with the doctrine, but because the doctrine is clearly not comprehensible and I have no interest in stretching my imagination to convince myself that something I cannot understand is worth worshipping for no other reason than someone said so.

Edited April 29, 2016 by JLHPROF

[Hamba Tuhan]

I guess I'm a pragmatist, but rather than debating the existence of God, I prefer to spend that time getting to know Him personally.

[Johnnie Cake]

My OP point being that the Mormon God intervenes in the lives of human beings. Saves Mormon missionaries while allowing others to die.  Helps Mormons find car keys yet allows others to die in wars and from starvation.  It just seems too random to be the actions of some invisible being

[Hamba Tuhan]

19 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

It just seems too random to be the actions of some invisible being

Because you want your 'invisible being' to be more of a machine than a real person?

[JLHPROF]

28 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

My OP point being that the Mormon God intervenes in the lives of human beings. Saves Mormon missionaries while allowing others to die.  Helps Mormons find car keys yet allows others to die in wars and from starvation.  It just seems too random to be the actions of some invisible being

Because you don't see the reasons behind every thing that happens.
Is there some reason you should?

I know it's a cop-out answer, but in the end it's the only one.
 

[Robert F. Smith]

6 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Only I can attach God to my life's experience or not.  I can see god's involvement or I can explain life's experiences in other non-god ways...but ultimately it is me who is doing the attaching.  Case in point...when I prayed to god to know the church was true...was it god who caused my bosom to burn or was it my over riding desire to know it was true that allowed my own body to create a heighten experience within my body.  At one time I believe it was the former, now I tend to go with the latter.

All you can do is be honest with yourself, and you appear to be trying very hard to do that.

[Robert F. Smith]

6 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

yes there were 4 missionaries that escaped the total effects of the bomb... and I'm going to put you down for believing that God saved them while allowing the other 35 to die...would that be correct Robert?

Actually I don't know.  God hasn't bothered to inform me of that.  However, I tend to think that God rarely plays favorites -- he maketh his rain to fall on the just and unjust.  Most of us are left to flail about blindly, in ignorance.  What raises one eyebrow (in Spock fashion) in me is your assumption that you knew where to place me on the ditto-head spectrum.  Very odd.  And you call into question Oaks' declaration on the divine will in the bombing?  How do you know?

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Johnnie Cake said:

My OP point being that the Mormon God intervenes in the lives of human beings. Saves Mormon missionaries while allowing others to die.  Helps Mormons find car keys yet allows others to die in wars and from starvation.  It just seems too random to be the actions of some invisible being

I don't find any of this in line with the Gospel, or with Mormon theology.  Wishful thinking maybe, and a little bit of a straw man.

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, Monster said:

God may exist or he may not. My view is we should not try to answer this question because there never has been a way to prove. We should not live our lives wondering if God exists. That is a waste of time. If he does exist and wants us to know it, he will get the message to us. And no I am not talking about some guy who claims god talks to him and we need to all do what he says. God would have to appear to us collectively or individually.

In the meantime go live your life the best you can.

Nice, sensible advice, Monster.  Trouble is that Neil deGrasse Tyson and Richard Dawkins are both certain that the "gods" exist -- based on science.  Different sorts of gods, of course, but so far ahead of us as to be godlike in every respect.  Especially in the aspect of being part of the natural universe, and subject to natural law.  All of which sounds suspiciously like Mormon theology.

[Robert F. Smith]

5 hours ago, Jim Stiles said:

...............................................................  

Therefore, the Mormon God is inferior to the God of the Bible, who created the universe out of nothing.

I gave you a rep point for getting nearly everything correct, until your lame conclusion.  As I have explained to you many times before, no biblical scholar worth his salt accepts the ex nihilo theory, because the Bible itself doesn't accept it.  You accept it because you are in thrall to Greek philosophy mingled with Scripture -- in which Scripture takes a back seat, and formal creeds dominate it.  The Mormon God is the God of the Bible:  He is anthropomorphic and he created everything from preexisting matter.  That's what the Bible says.  You need to do some serious study of the Bible.

[mfbukowski]

3 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Nice, sensible advice, Monster.  Trouble is that Neil deGrasse Tyson and Richard Dawkins are both certain that the "gods" exist -- based on science.  Different sorts of gods, of course, but so far ahead of us as to be godlike in every respect.  Especially in the aspect of being part of the natural universe, and subject to natural law.  All of which sounds suspiciously like Mormon theology.

Exactly.

Rorty, an atheist said he could believe in a God who was a :friend" to mankind.  That's us  D

Thomas Nagel, chairman of the NYU department of philosophy and a renowned philosopher says he "hopes" God does not exist- meaning he takes it on faith that there is no God.

Dawkins says he could believe in a god who evolved.  And then we have King Follette. 

All of which sounds suspiciously like Mormon theology

 

[Robert F. Smith]

10 hours ago, Kevin Christensen said:

.........................................................................   

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Participation in a religious tradition also demands a more total personal involvement than occurs in science. Religious questions are of ultimate concern, since the meaning of one’s existence is at stake. Religion asks about the final objects of a person’s devotion and loyalty, for which he will sacrifice other interests if necessary. Too detached an attitude may cut a person off from the very kinds of experience which are religiously most significant. Reorientation and reconciliation are transformations of life-pattern affecting all aspects of personality, not intellect alone. Religious writings use the language of actors, not the language of spectators. Religious commitment, then, is a self-involving personal response, a serious decision implicating one’s whole life, a willingness to act and suffer for what one believes in.¹⁴⁷  Barbour, 135–136.  Emphasis mine.

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

Your sage observations are always very enlightening to me, Kevin.  Thanks.

This particular quotation calls to mind the difference between pundits and gurus.  Somehow I think that we need both.

[Jim Stiles]

6 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I gave you a rep point for getting nearly everything correct, until your lame conclusion.  As I have explained to you many times before, no biblical scholar worth his salt accepts the ex nihilo theory, because the Bible itself doesn't accept it.  You accept it because you are in thrall to Greek philosophy mingled with Scripture -- in which Scripture takes a back seat, and formal creeds dominate it.  The Mormon God is the God of the Bible:  He is anthropomorphic and he created everything from preexisting matter.  That's what the Bible says.  You need to do some serious study of the Bible.

I know there are some places in the Bible that uses anthropomorphic language¹, but there are other places (the majority) that explicitly excludes anthropomorphism.²

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1. Genesis 6:6-7 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

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2. Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

 

[mfbukowski]

6 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Only I can attach God to my life's experience or not.  I can see god's involvement or I can explain life's experiences in other non-god ways...but ultimately it is me who is doing the attaching.  Case in point...when I prayed to god to know the church was true...was it god who caused my bosom to burn or was it my over riding desire to know it was true that allowed my own body to create a heighten experience within my body.  At one time I believe it was the former, now I tend to go with the latter.

That's unknowable and therefore irrelevant

If your body wants to believe it, why argue with your body?  

The point is not arguing about metaphysics that is unknowable either way- the point is going with what gives you purpose in life and happiness.

Think of the logic behind "save the whales"  Why "should" we save whales?  What is the logical basis of any morality whatsoever?  What evidence do you have that it is wrong to kill babies for fun?

None whatsoever

You feel it in your gut.

Don't argue with your gut.  It is unhealthy.  Logic has nothing to do with morality.

Hume proved that way back in the 17th century.  You can occam's razor your self all day if you want and not prove it.    No evidence for any morals at all - period, end of story

Here- refute this.  If you are feeling smart, here is one way: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/hume-moral/

If you are feeling dumb, this will do: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Is%E2%80%93ought_problem

The point is, knowing God is exactly like knowing what is morally right.  It's in your gut and no where else

God is the ideal human- if you can only get yourself to believe in the best possible human- go for it.  He exists like an ideal like "Freedom" or what is morally good.  I believe more, but that will do for a start.

[Garden Girl]

This is not a question that is easily answered because of the very type of questions posed by JohnnieC... but I DO believe  in God... one as taught in Mormon theology.  Not only because of my personal research, studies, and prayers, but because I've had too many incredible experiences in answer to prayers and blessings that I simply cannot dismiss as coincidence, imagination, warm fuzzy feelings, or whatever... I wrote about one such experience, when my Dad came for a visitation, that I posted here, titled The Night I Rode With Angels... telling of a harrowing summer night when I as a 4 year old, with my 7 year old sister, riding with our drunken father at the wheel, and the incredible protection we received.  And the actions of my very petite sis that were beyond her years, and her presence of mind, as she would keep waking up our Dad as his head would fall forward onto his chest, and as she would turn the steering wheel to keep the car on the road even though she could barely see over the dash board... we drove that way for almost 35 miles in the dark from West Riverside to Rialto.  We were supposed to be home by 6:00, before dark, so it had to be about 9:00.  When we turned into our driveway, our Dad passed out cold... my sis could see our Mom, leaning against the door jam, her head buried in her arm... she would tell us later how she had prayed... I know that her fervent prayers as a mother for her two little girls were heard and answered... Here it is 71 years later yet that night plays in my mind like it was yesterday... I can see it all like watching a movie...the whole day... and the night.

I've had many answers to prayers... and blessings... that build my faith and testimony in a loving Heavenly Father who is mindful of us.  I don't have an answer to the perplexing question as to why some are protected while others are not, etc.. why bad things happen to good people... this is a question that is age old.  I believe one day we will have the answers...

 GG

[Robert F. Smith]

19 minutes ago, Jim Stiles said:

I know there are some places in the Bible that uses anthropomorphic language¹, but there are other places (the majority) that explicitly excludes anthropomorphism.²

I can give you some recommendations for serious Bible study, if you are open to them, Jim.

Meantime, just imagine that you are in the large retinue of Abraham when those three "men" come to him encamped in the Plain at Mamre.  What does the Bible say of them, and what does Abraham do?  Yeh, he makes a great feast.  Afterward, he bargains with the LORD while the other two (angels) go off to destroy Sodom.  There is no room for your Greek philosophical interpretations.

Edited April 29, 2016 by Robert F. Smith

[The Nehor]

The first one.

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

That's unknowable and therefore irrelevant

If your body wants to believe it, why argue with your body?  

The point is not arguing about metaphysics that is unknowable either way- the point is going with what gives you purpose in life and happiness.

Think of the logic behind "save the whales"  Why "should" we save whales?  What is the logical basis of any morality whatsoever?  What evidence do you have that it is wrong to kill babies for fun?

None whatsoever

You feel it in your gut.

Don't argue with your gut.  It is unhealthy.  Logic has nothing to do with morality.

Hume proved that way back in the 17th century.  You can occam's razor your self all day if you want and not prove it.    No evidence for any morals at all - period, end of story

In other words, the light of Christ that lights every man that comes into the world.

[Gray]

6 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I gave you a rep point for getting nearly everything correct, until your lame conclusion.  As I have explained to you many times before, no biblical scholar worth his salt accepts the ex nihilo theory, because the Bible itself doesn't accept it.  You accept it because you are in thrall to Greek philosophy mingled with Scripture -- in which Scripture takes a back seat, and formal creeds dominate it.  The Mormon God is the God of the Bible:  He is anthropomorphic and he created everything from preexisting matter.  That's what the Bible says.  You need to do some serious study of the Bible.

Your points are well made. But to be fair, couldn't it be said that Mormonism is, in one sense, common sense realism mingled with scripture? There is no getting away from the philosophies of men. Scripture is, after all, full of those. And of course scripture does not interpret itself.

[Atheist Mormon]

Just now, Pa Pa said:

We worship the God and creator of all, the God who can do all things. But thank you for your anti-Mormon comments. It always great when someone comes here to insult our God and us. I was unaware this was an ex-nilo thread. (hope I spell that right), would not want to have something else to insult me about. 

It's fine to insult God, (I won't do it here out of respect  to you all though). However there's absolutely no consequence insulting God, since it is an imaginary entity. Besides it can't be our God; you have your God, Christians, Moslems, Jews have their own God.....So you are basically one God away becoming atheist.

[Johnnie Cake]

9 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Actually I don't know.  God hasn't bothered to inform me of that.  However, I tend to think that God rarely plays favorites -- he maketh his rain to fall on the just and unjust.

I appreciate your engagement in this thread Robert, but again you're attributing to a god things that happen naturally through nature

Quote

 Most of us are left to flail about blindly, in ignorance.  What raises one eyebrow (in Spock fashion) in me is your assumption that you knew where to place me on the ditto-head spectrum.  Very odd.  And you call into question Oaks' declaration on the divine will in the bombing?  How do you know?

If I did that wasn't my intention.  I've lost god, I don't see any god anywhere,  I just wanted to hear from members of this believers board how they explain the lack of any evidence of a god figure in the world.  I appreciate that anyone can attribute any random event to a god figure but there really is nothing there from my perspective...its just humans attaching God to random events. if a blessing of healing is given and the person dies, it was god will, if the blessed recovers its a miracle...god wins irrespective when in reality that person would have had the same exact result with or without the blessing (I understand that you don't see it that way).  Oaks assertion that the Mormon God saved the 4 missionaries was offensive and insensitive to the families and memories of those that died.  Why would a god save them and not others. Just because they're missionaries?  And yet the very next week this same God chose NOT to intervene in saving a missionary in Taiwan?  Really?  Who would want to worship such a capricious being?

Edited April 29, 2016 by Johnnie Cake