Does God Really Exist or is the Notion of a God a figment of our Imagination

[mfbukowski]

10 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

I appreciate your engagement in this thread Robert, but again you're attributing to a god things that happen naturally through nature

If I did that wasn't my intention.  I've lost god, I don't see any god anywhere,  I just wanted to hear from members of this believers board how they explain the lack of any evidence of a god figure in the world.  I appreciate that anyone can attribute any random event to a god figure but there really is nothing there from my perspective...its just humans attaching God to random events. if a blessing of healing is given and the person dies, it was god will, if the blessed recovers its a miracle...god wins irrespective when in reality that person would have had the same exact result with or without the blessing (I understand that you don't see it that way).  Oaks assertion that the Mormon God saved the 4 missionaries was offensive and insensitive to the families and memories of those that died.  Why would a god save them and not others. Just because they're missionaries?  And yet the very next week this same God chose NOT to intervene in saving a missionary in Taiwan?  Really?  Who would want to worship such a capricious being?

We have been over this before.  The belief that "evidence" is necessary to justify moral and religious beliefs needs justification which I guarantee, you cannot provide.

And Hamba is right as well- it is your itnerpretation vs the interpretation of others.  I believe we at least have a reasonable philosophical position justifiable through hermeneutics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermeneutics

Your position is derived only from logical positivism which is no longer regarded as a philosophically tenable position.  It has been refuted again and again.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_positivism

http://forums.philosophyforums.com/threads/if-logical-positivism-is-dead-what-replaced-it-9749.html

But we have been over this before.  Sigh.

Go ahead and google "death of positivism" for yourself.  Religious propositions are meaningful and do not require objective evidence.  They are about internal states of mind, and have nothing to do with anything objective.  You are barking up the wrong canyon.

 

Edited April 30, 2016 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

More on hermeneutics from the Stanford Encyclopedia of philosophy.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/hermeneutics/

Quote

For Descartes, Heidegger argues, the task of philosophy is to show how the subject can rationally establish the norms of epistemic certainty whereby a given representation is judged to be true or false. From such a position, he continues, the way is not long to a conception of truth in terms of the methods provided by the natural sciences alone. Such a model, however, tends to forget the most fundamental, pre-scientific aspects of our being in the world. This is the area of Heidegger's hermeneutics. As such, hermeneutics no longer emerges as one of several philosophical possibilities. Rather, hermeneutics—the hermeneutics of facticity, as Heidegger calls it—is what philosophy is all about in the first place.

 

Edited April 30, 2016 by mfbukowski

[Meadowchik]

On Thursday, April 28, 2016 at 8:56 PM, Johnnie Cake said:

So some are more inclined to faith and belief while others more inclined to skepticism, critical thinking and evidence. To the religious their dirt is always considered more special and pure while they always look down on the unbelievers as less somehow being less than themselves because we ask questions and expect to have evidence before belief...Frankly this worldview of superiority is off putting...but not unexpected.  Keep in mind Kevin that faith and belief are not unique to Mormonism.  It is a common thread of religions of all stripes and claims...with each adherent claiming that their unique version of god is the right version...so appear to be more of a human characteristic than a Mormon characteristic

That superiority can come with any worldview,  religious or not, but it certainly can occur with LDS, too.

As someone who has not been immune to it, I'm becoming more comfortable with the idea of another's authentic path and search for truth being very unlike my own.

 

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Meadowchik said:

That superiority can come with any worldview,  religious or not, but it certainly can occur with LDS, too.

As someone who has not been immune to it, I'm becoming more comfortable with the idea of another's authentic path and search for truth being very unlike my own.

 

Either we admit that possibility or we have to conclude that others who think they have the right path are either misled of lying, and I do not find those palatable alternatives.

If we believe that there is some truth in all churches we must conclude that the believers have recognized it. 

The fact that they have found truth does not mean that they- nor we for that matter- have found all of it.

That is what eternal progression is all about.  If we had it all here, how could we progress?

[Jim Stiles]

17 hours ago, Ahab said:

Alexander Campbell?  True but he was called Christian back then and even today many still believe he was.

If you could be bothered to learn some history of the names you drop, you would have known that much of what I said about Joseph Smith Jr. could be applied to the anti-mormon Alexander Campbell.  Alexander Campbell did not like the term Trinity because it is not found in scripture, but what not opposed to the idea that God was one essence with three persons.  Like Joseph Smith Jr., Alexander Campbell opposed many of the other core doctrines because he was under the impression that they were products of Neoplatonic philosophy and not scripture.  This assertion is too silly to warrant a response.

I see no documentary evidence that indicates that Joseph Smith Jr. ever had an understanding of the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity.  Later in life, Smith developed the Tritheistic Doctrine that the LDS church uses to this day.

[thesometimesaint]

22 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

If you could be bothered to learn some history of the names you drop, you would have known that much of what I said about Joseph Smith Jr. could be applied to the anti-mormon Alexander Campbell.  Alexander Campbell did not like the term Trinity because it is not found in scripture, but what not opposed to the idea that God was one essence with three persons.  Like Joseph Smith Jr., Alexander Campbell opposed many of the other core doctrines because he was under the impression that they were products of Neoplatonic philosophy and not scripture.  This assertion is too silly to warrant a response.

I see no documentary evidence that indicates that Joseph Smith Jr. ever had an understanding of the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity.  Later in life, Smith developed the Tritheistic Doctrine that the LDS church uses to this day.

Neither the Trinity nor Tritheistic Doctrine is in LDS Scripture.

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, thesometimesaint said:

Neither the Trinity nor Tritheistic Doctrine is in LDS Scripture.

There is no such thing as a tritheistic doctrine. "GOD" is one family. Simple as that.

[rodheadlee]

On 4/28/2016 at 10:58 AM, Johnnie Cake said:

While once a firm believer in God I now tend to fall on the agnostic side of this question. 

So no God, no eternity, no next life. How sad to think that this is all there is. No answers to how we came to be, no visiting worlds without end, no seeing loved ones and friends again. This is it, all we get is 80 or so years if we're lucky. I'm in the 4th quarter, how sad if it were true. It reminds me of an old song.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79NiN7ISW7E

 

[mfbukowski]

37 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

So no God, no eternity, no next life. How sad to think that this is all there is. No answers to how we came to be, no visiting worlds without end, no seeing loved ones and friends again. This is it, all we get is 80 or so years if we're lucky. I'm in the 4th quarter, how sad if it were true. It reminds me of an old song.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79NiN7ISW7E

 

Holy cow!  That made my day- thanks!

[TheSkepticChristian]

On 4/28/2016 at 1:17 PM, Calm said:

 So I say "I know" because I know this in the same way I know my kids love me

You "know" your kids love you because you have good reasons to assume that. Perhaps they tell you "I love You", perhaps they do stuff for you, perhaps they simply spend time with you. Many parents can't say the same thing, they don't know if their sons or daughters love them because they don't see any evidence . 

So please give us good reasons to assume that a good God loves us. 

On 4/28/2016 at 11:58 AM, Johnnie Cake said:

While once a firm believer in God I now tend to fall on the agnostic side of this question.  ]

Same with me. 

On 4/28/2016 at 4:45 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

.  So much for his and your omniscience, and the absence of any real evidence either way.

True, so why is agnosticism not the best position?

On 4/28/2016 at 0:51 PM, mnn727 said:

While many people claim to "Know" I just don't get it.

I have faith, I have belief, but unless God visits you like he did Joseph, I don't see how anyone can "Know" until after death.

Please tell us why? How is faith better than agnosticism? 

Edited May 3, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian

[stemelbow]

On ‎4‎/‎29‎/‎2016 at 11:56 AM, Johnnie Cake said:

What you interpret as God speaking to you via ESP I see as my inner mind speaking and me choosing or not choosing to interpret as a god figure...I choose to view it as my inner thoughts

Your inner thoughts are your God then.  I dont' think it much matters if you think there is a being out there that is God or not, if that be the case.  The results come out the same. 

I'm curious on your journey from knowing there is God to not knowing therefore choosing to think he is not, what has changed for you?  your mindset?  Your goals?

[Johnnie Cake]

48 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Your inner thoughts are your God then.  I dont' think it much matters if you think there is a being out there that is God or not, if that be the case.  The results come out the same. 

I'm curious on your journey from knowing there is God to not knowing therefore choosing to think he is not, what has changed for you?  your mindset?  Your goals?

Long story...but it started with the disintegration of my belief in Mormonism...caused me to rethink and question every premises I had built my life upon and this is where I landed once the dust settled

[stemelbow]

Just now, Johnnie Cake said:

Long story...but it started with the disintegration of my belief in Mormonism...caused me to rethink and question every premises I had built my life upon and this is where I landed once the dust settled

Yeah but, does anything really change for you?  Does your family see you as anything different?  Are you pursuing life differently?  if so, how so? 

[Johnnie Cake]

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

Yeah but, does anything really change for you?  Does your family see you as anything different?  Are you pursuing life differently?  if so, how so? 

When I first went through my faith transition is was very taxing on all family members but particularly my wife who remains a believer.  But with time things have settled down.  For the most part I'm still the same guy, just see the world differently.  I believe that I'm more in touch with all of humanity than I was before in my ethnocentric Mormon worldview.  The entire human race matters, which includes those that the religious condemn and marginalize or place lifestyle restrictions on.  Prior I was very much in line with the various dictates from SLC...I no longer subscribe to any of Mormonism's unique teachings

 

Edited May 3, 2016 by Johnnie Cake

[stemelbow]

27 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

When I first went through my faith transition is was very taxing on all family members but particularly my wife who remains a believer.  But with time things have settled down.  For the most part I'm still the same guy, just see the world differently.  I believe that I'm more in touch with all of humanity than I was before in my ethnocentric Mormon worldview.  The entire human race matters, which includes those that the religious condemn and marginalize or place lifestyle restrictions on.  Prior I was very much in line with the various dictates from SLC...I no longer subscribe to any of Mormonism's unique teachings

 

Alright, So your goals, it seems, have changed some...for the better.  I will caution though, one can be in touch with all of humanity within Mormonism, and those that are religious are not necessarily always quick to condemn or marginalize or place lifestyle restrictions on. 

[RevTestament]

11 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

So no God, no eternity, no next life. How sad to think that this is all there is. No answers to how we came to be, no visiting worlds without end, no seeing loved ones and friends again. This is it, all we get is 80 or so years if we're lucky. I'm in the 4th quarter, how sad if it were true. It reminds me of an old song.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79NiN7ISW7E

 

Not sure I have ever heard that song before or even of the group. Nice song - very poignant. Thanks.

But now you are reminding me of John Lennon's song....

 

[Gray]

There are so many ideas that people have about God. Is God:

• An immaterial timeless infinite being who created the universe from nothing? 
• An exalted human being who is part of the larger universe (or multiverse) rather than its ultimate creator?
• The universe itself? The movement of time? Something abstract like goodness, truth, beauty? 

When you think about it, you really have to start with "what is God" before you can ask "does God exist?"

 

[RevTestament]

18 minutes ago, Gray said:

There are so many ideas that people have about God. Is God:

• An immaterial timeless infinite being who created the universe from nothing? 
• An exalted human being who is part of the larger universe (or multiverse) rather than its ultimate creator?
• The universe itself? The movement of time? Something abstract like goodness, truth, beauty? 

When you think about it, you really have to start with "what is God" before you can ask "does God exist?"

 

I have to say my ideas about God have definitely changed over the course of my life, so I don't have any room to be critical of notions of others. 

I guess as a child I didn't think too much about the nature of the Father - I was more centered on questions about the doctrine of the trinity. After deciding that the doctrines of the trinity were not accurate, I became LDS, but later while trying to understand the atonement, I went through a period where I thought very openly about the nature of God. I even entertained some pantheistic notions about God - that He was the energy of all the universe.... and notions like that. After returning to the LDS church tho, I realized that the scriptures were our best key to understanding the Father. I believe God has led me to a much different view of Himself than I could ever have dreamt as a child... He has led me to understand Him in light of the Hebrew scriptures, and I am more humbled than ever in my current understanding of God. When I read the scriptures with this understanding, it is like opening "the book of life" and indeed it literally is....as Christ said 

John 6:63

63 ... the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

"

[Johnnie Cake]

43 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Alright, So your goals, it seems, have changed some...for the better.  I will caution though, one can be in touch with all of humanity within Mormonism, and those that are religious are not necessarily always quick to condemn or marginalize or place lifestyle restrictions on. 

Member's of the LDS church are wonderful people.  But the church creates an us vs them mentality, a compassionate yet a "we're better than you because we're members of the real one true church" mentality. The church vilifies many members of society because they choose life styles that conflict with LDS teachings.  Those that choose to live together rather than marry, the LGBQ communities, those that don't live the WOW.  the church fights equality in woman's rights and the gay community and even though we now have marriage equality they still fight it and call those legally married in a same sex marriage apostates.  The church not only wants to control its own members but uses proxies in the legislature to control the lives of inactive's and non-members in Utah as well.  Ever heard of the Zion Curtin?  Alcohol is evil and can't be seen being prepared in public...for surely merely viewing its preparation can cause young eyes to want to drink it...etc etc etc  Ummm ok and other silly false premises imposed on the Utah society and encouraged by the church.

While I get that members are free to hold conflicting views within the church...they aren't allowed the freedom to express those conflicting viewpoints publically. 

[Gray]

37 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

I have to say my ideas about God have definitely changed over the course of my life, so I don't have any room to be critical of notions of others. 

I guess as a child I didn't think too much about the nature of the Father - I was more centered on questions about the doctrine of the trinity. After deciding that the doctrines of the trinity were not accurate, I became LDS, but later while trying to understand the atonement, I went through a period where I thought very openly about the nature of God. I even entertained some pantheistic notions about God - that He was the energy of all the universe.... and notions like that. After returning to the LDS church tho, I realized that the scriptures were our best key to understanding the Father. I believe God has led me to a much different view of Himself than I could ever have dreamt as a child... He has led me to understand Him in light of the Hebrew scriptures, and I am more humbled than ever in my current understanding of God. When I read the scriptures with this understanding, it is like opening "the book of life" and indeed it literally is....as Christ said 

John 6:63

63 ... the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

"

Very interesting way to approach God. Thanks Rev!

[mfbukowski]

55 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Member's of the LDS church are wonderful people.  But the church creates an us vs them mentality, a compassionate yet a "we're better than you because we're members of the real one true church" mentality. The church vilifies many members of society because they choose life styles that conflict with LDS teachings.  Those that choose to live together rather than marry, the LGBQ communities, those that don't live the WOW.  the church fights equality in woman's rights and the gay community and even though we now have marriage equality they still fight it and call those legally married in a same sex marriage apostates.  The church not only wants to control its own members but uses proxies in the legislature to control the lives of inactive's and non-members in Utah as well.  Ever heard of the Zion Curtin?  Alcohol is evil and can't be seen being prepared in public...for surely merely viewing its preparation can cause young eyes to want to drink it...etc etc etc  Ummm ok and other silly false premises imposed on the Utah society and encouraged by the church.

While I get that members are free to hold conflicting views within the church...they aren't allowed the freedom to express those conflicting viewpoints publically. 

Here in the states we still have pretty decentralized majority rule, which is not the case in other countries which are more centrally governed.

That means that states with a lot of Mormons pass laws which cater to Mormon values.   I personally do not have a problem with that- in fact I like LDS morality and moral values, and I do not mind them being enforced through majority rule where Mormons are in the majority or at least in control of political influence.

In other words, Utah is extremely different than say, California, in all these areas.

In California I have seen NO evidence of what you are mentioning.  Yes of ocurse we had Prop 8, but it lost.  Majority rule again.

But on a personal basis, I see no evidence of what you are saying in our California stake.  We have members who believe in gay rights and members who don't.  Virtually every couple we baptize are living together unmarried, and there is no stigma to that here.  Of ocurse they willing ly get married when they learn our beliefs, and their children are baptized as well.  But no stigma- it is universal.

WOW?  Universal problems here where pot also is virtually legal.  You can smoke openly in front of cops and not get a blink from them.

Everyone believes in "women's rights", and the members here understand the church's position on women and the priesthood- at least I have seen NO evidence of disagreement with church policies hereabouts.

LBGT?  We have CITIES (multiple) within LA county where these folks are in the majority and the local ordinances reflect that.  No problem with unisex bathrooms etc, that I have seen.

Again, I wish LDS values were enforced, but they are not, as a libertarian, I have no problem with it, really.  If wishes were horses....

But the point is that majority rule, in a the broad sense, is the reality of life.  Mormons control the politics of Utah and so Mormons pass laws that make them comfortable.  To expect it to be otherwise is naive.

On the other hand, Utah is one TINY state in a huge country.  "The Church" is a small church, but it IS worldwide.

Judging "The Church" based on Utah politics is ridiculous.  The population of Utah (the state) is about the same as the CITY of Los Angeles- not the county, not the metropolitian area, not the state.  The state of California has about 39 million people, about TEN TIMES the population of Utah, with about 750,000 members, while Utah has 2.2 million members.  So in CA, the membership is tiny compared to the population and in Utah, clearly Mormons are a huge majority.

Utah is the ONLY state where more than 50% of the population is LDS.

If we take the church stats that there are 2.2 million members in Utah and 15 million members church wide, that means that ONLY 14.6% of the LDS membership is in Utah.

So to say that Utah is an anomaly is a huge understatement.  To say that Utah represents a majority of "church members" is just plain wrong, in fact relative to the membership of "the church" the Utah membership is a SMALL MINORITY.

Quote

While I get that members are free to hold conflicting views within the church...they aren't allowed the freedom to express those conflicting viewpoints publically. 

In these parts, we virtually are not allowed to express LDS beliefs publicly, especially about gay marriage etc.  I lose business if my clients know I am LDS, regardless of my personal beliefs on gay marriage

Just some perspective.

 

Edited May 3, 2016 by mfbukowski

[RevTestament]

52 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Member's of the LDS church are wonderful people.  But the church creates an us vs them mentality, a compassionate yet a "we're better than you because we're members of the real one true church" mentality. The church vilifies many members of society because they choose life styles that conflict with LDS teachings.  Those that choose to live together rather than marry, the LGBQ communities, those that don't live the WOW.  the church fights equality in woman's rights and the gay community and even though we now have marriage equality they still fight it and call those legally married in a same sex marriage apostates.  The church not only wants to control its own members but uses proxies in the legislature to control the lives of inactive's and non-members in Utah as well.  Ever heard of the Zion Curtin?  Alcohol is evil and can't be seen being prepared in public...for surely merely viewing its preparation can cause young eyes to want to drink it...etc etc etc  Ummm ok and other silly false premises imposed on the Utah society and encouraged by the church.

While I get that members are free to hold conflicting views within the church...they aren't allowed the freedom to express those conflicting viewpoints publically. 

Even if accepted as true Johnnie, which to some degree I do, these things do not change the basic truths of the gospel. But you are right I think that there is a certain danger of a prideful "we are the champions" kind of mentality that LDS in Utah need to be watchful of... I say it that way, because growing up as an extreme LDS minority in Florida, this was not evident at all. But in UT I would say I have seen it imho.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

Not sure I have ever heard that song before or even of the group. Nice song - very poignant. Thanks.

But now you are reminding me of John Lennon's song....

 

Dang

What a baby he was.  And naive as can be.

He was virtually a prophet to me.  The idealism of youth.

[stemelbow]

1 hour ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Member's of the LDS church are wonderful people.  But the church creates an us vs them mentality, a compassionate yet a "we're better than you because we're members of the real one true church" mentality.

Sure...but some members somehow escape that mentality. 

1 hour ago, Johnnie Cake said:

The church vilifies many members of society because they choose life styles that conflict with LDS teachings.  Those that choose to live together rather than marry, the LGBQ communities, those that don't live the WOW.  the church fights equality in woman's rights and the gay community and even though we now have marriage equality they still fight it and call those legally married in a same sex marriage apostates.  The church not only wants to control its own members but uses proxies in the legislature to control the lives of inactive's and non-members in Utah as well.  Ever heard of the Zion Curtin?  Alcohol is evil and can't be seen being prepared in public...for surely merely viewing its preparation can cause young eyes to want to drink it...etc etc etc  Ummm ok and other silly false premises imposed on the Utah society and encouraged by the church.

While I get that members are free to hold conflicting views within the church...they aren't allowed the freedom to express those conflicting viewpoints publically. 

I disagree to an extent.  I express my conflicting viewpoints publically.  Now if I created an influential website that at least caused some leaders to suspect I'm drawing people out I might get in trouble, as per my membership.  Luckily for me, my ability to influence is pretty weak.  hah.  I was recollecting some various times I've been in trouble with local leaders.  I think in each case it was local leaders reacting to me.  And in each case, somehow, each of these leaders have come around, amazingly, in a couple cases, it feels like.  While I agree with your general sentiment, I don't quite see it as stark or dire as you seem to. 

[Stargazer]

On 4/28/2016 at 10:58 AM, Johnnie Cake said:

While once a firm believer in God I now tend to fall on the agnostic side of this question.  I see absolutely no evidence that a god exists.  Despite Elder Oaks recent comments that the LDS version of God saved the 3 Mormon Missionaries from the most sever impacts of the bomb blast in Brussels, I merely see it as the lucky consequences of a random event.  Being in the right place to withstand the impact while others were not so lucky.  How exactly did the LDS God impact the results of this blast.  And if He did somehow save the missionaries...what an *** for not saving the 35 who where killed.  How do you worship such a being who puts the needs of 3 above the lives of the 35.  To me it is just an example of Oaks confirmation bias.  He believes in a God so he sees this random event as the consequences of God.

I could go on with example after example...but just being honest...other than the human induced chemical endorphins in the human mind that create warm tingling feelings un-unique to Mormon's, what evidence is there of the kind of God Mormon worship? I can't see any.

So far as I can remember, I've never not believed there was a God.  I suppose it's possible that I could lose my testimony of the reality of God, since I'm certainly no superhuman who is incapable of falling away from it.  But my belief in God has gotten stronger over the years as I have felt increasingly that God has been interacting with me more and more.  I have had some very recent spiritual experiences which have increased this feeling of certainty that there is a God, and that He knows who I am, and loves me.  These experiences felt very strongly to have originated from outside of me.  Now, a skeptic might try to convince me that it was all self-delusion and/or accidental brain chemical cascades and have nothing to do with any supreme being.  But I don't see it that way at all.

And why have I been blessed with this kind of thing that others perhaps have not?  Good question, I don't know the answer.  Perhaps because I am willing and humble enough to do so?  I know I'm not perfect.