mfbukowski Posted May 9, 2016 Posted May 9, 2016 1 hour ago, TheSkepticChristian said: It works, ask a medical doctor. Ask the structural engineers that make buildings. Ask Neal Armstrong. even if our world is a video game, evidence still works. We can make observations, even if the world is not real. As I have said to you a hundred times, it works for science. Expecting God to be scientifically verifiable is worshiping a false God. Sorry but I have more to do with my limited years than say this over and over to you. 1
TheSkepticChristian Posted May 9, 2016 Posted May 9, 2016 (edited) 27 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: As I have said to you a hundred times, it works for science. Expecting God to be scientifically verifiable is worshiping a false God. Sorry but I have more to do with my limited years than say this over and over to you. Millions say God is scientifically verifiable, especially the Intelligent Design creationists. I am not expecting God to be scientifically verifiable, all I want is some kind of strong and clear confirmation. Edited May 9, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian
mfbukowski Posted May 9, 2016 Posted May 9, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, TheSkepticChristian said: Millions say God is scientifically verifiable, especially the Intelligent Design creationists. I am not expecting God to be scientifically verifiable, all I want is some kind of strong and clear confirmation. Contradiction. You cite it as evidence and then ignore it as evidence simultaneously. Welcome to trolldom Edited May 9, 2016 by mfbukowski
RevTestament Posted May 9, 2016 Posted May 9, 2016 2 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said: Millions say God is scientifically verifiable, especially the Intelligent Design creationists. I am not expecting God to be scientifically verifiable, all I want is some kind of strong and clear confirmation. Will strong and clear confirmation from the Spirit work for you? If not, then perhaps that is why you haven't received "strong and clear confirmation." Further, are you willing to commit yourself 100 percent to serving God if you receive your confirmation, and have you told Him so?
TheSkepticChristian Posted May 9, 2016 Posted May 9, 2016 1 hour ago, RevTestament said: Will strong and clear confirmation from the Spirit work for you? If not, then perhaps that is why you haven't received "strong and clear confirmation." Further, are you willing to commit yourself 100 percent to serving God if you receive your confirmation, and have you told Him so? Yes it will be enough, the problem is that I don't know how the spirit feels. I don't know if it is just me or the spirit. About me: I been active all my life, I did everything for the church, I read the scriptures and church manuals, and I even read “Believest thou…?”: Faith, Cognitive Dissonance, and the Psychology of Religious Experience by Wendy Ulrich. She says, "Fortunately, we are not left with emotion alone to discern God’s hand in our lives. Reason, experience, counsel from others, and other forms of revelation may all assist us. In fact, I notice that emotion plays into only some of my spiritual experiences, and often only in a secondary way. More often the spiritual promptings and confirmations I receive come very quietly as something simply occurs to me with a kind of rightness that has no real emotion attached to it at all" Can you explain to me what she is saying? What does "kind of rightness" without emotion mean? 1 hour ago, mfbukowski said: Contradiction. You cite it as evidence and then ignore it as evidence simultaneously. Welcome to trolldom How?
RevTestament Posted May 9, 2016 Posted May 9, 2016 5 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said: Yes it will be enough, the problem is that I don't know how the spirit feels. I don't know if it is just me or the spirit. About me: I been active all my life, I did everything for the church, I read the scriptures and church manuals, and I even read “Believest thou…?”: Faith, Cognitive Dissonance, and the Psychology of Religious Experience by Wendy Ulrich. She says, "Fortunately, we are not left with emotion alone to discern God’s hand in our lives. Reason, experience, counsel from others, and other forms of revelation may all assist us. In fact, I notice that emotion plays into only some of my spiritual experiences, and often only in a secondary way. More often the spiritual promptings and confirmations I receive come very quietly as something simply occurs to me with a kind of rightness that has no real emotion attached to it at all" Can you explain to me what she is saying? What does "kind of rightness" without emotion mean? I have experienced this myself. I went inactive because I was confused about the atonement - I knew what the Church taught about it, but it just didn't quite make sense to me. So when it came time for my priest interview, I did not feel I could rightly say I had a testimony of the atonement. That left me as a teacher, and I went off to college and became inactive. But I continued to pray about the atonement, read, take courses - one on the NT. Years later in grad school is when I began to realize my prayers had been finally answered. I had this epiphany that the atonement was an example that Jesus was setting for us - that He is looking for a godly seed. Anyway, the realization just "hit me" and I knew it was right. I knew it made sense in the scriptures. I can't think of any one event which triggered this realization, but in retrospect I think of it as a personal revelation. looking back on it again in retrospect, I do realize I think I had recently made a commitment to do a certain thing from the scriptures, so maybe it was after making this commitment that I received this epiphany. Later after school, I was taking a leadership course, and this idea again came back to me. I realized there are basically two types of leaders - those who lead through example and inspiration, and those who "lead" by forcing their will over others with intimidation, fear and force. I knew Jesus taught the first type of leadership, and therefore it fell upon Him to lead by example. He did everything He expects of us. So I would say that this revelation was a "kind of rightness." The experiences of my life, what I had learned about the scriptures, and my inner voice all screamed to me that it was right and true. After a few more years attending various other churches, experiences landed me back in this church. But that is not how I experience most revelation. I have had revelation numerous ways - at least 2 dreams I can remember which I considered to be God speaking to me. I have "heard" the voice of the Lord while I was reading scripture, or praying and asking for guidance or at times apparently determined by Him. I have awoken with a word or phrase on my mind. But usually, I get this kind of "welling" feeling - sometimes almost like a shiver up my body - which emanates up into my breast - a feeling which I accept as confirmation of my prayer. I have also experienced the presence of the Lord or Spirit so strongly that it seemed I was "lifted up" and knowledge just flowed into me, and I just came to understand scripture, or what I must do to understand it better. So in short there is not one set way to receive revelation or confirmation which I can say will apply to you my friend. I personally feel tho, one of the most important things you can do on your behalf in seeking confirmation, is to be one hundred percent committed to the answer you get. If you get an answer, are you willing to go step by step with the Lord? Are you willing to be born again in Him? Jesus may not be willing to confirm the prayers of people who just want to know, but don't satisfy Him that they will follow Him despite the costs, that they will continue to serve Him the rest of their life, etc.
mfbukowski Posted May 9, 2016 Posted May 9, 2016 18 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said: Millions say God is scientifically verifiable, especially the Intelligent Design creationists. You asked me for scientific verification for God- I said it is not possible You countered with this- meaning that this IS the kind of "scientific evidence" you would accept. Fine- you answered your own question then, right? Quote I am not expecting God to be scientifically verifiable, all I want is some kind of strong and clear confirmation. Then IN THE NEXT LINE you say THIS!! Contradiction!! Do you want scientific evidence- which you have provided for your self- Intelligent Design- or not? Intelligent design gives "strong and clear confirmation- if you accept it. Having to spell this out for you makes you think you are just trolling for fun- contradicting yourself- not putting together full sentences- just bantering with no purpose I cannot imagine that you could not see the contradiction here in saying that millions find the evidence you want, and yet seeming to reject it!! Why would anyone do that? You want verifiability or not?
mfbukowski Posted May 9, 2016 Posted May 9, 2016 14 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said: Yes it will be enough, the problem is that I don't know how the spirit feels. I don't know if it is just me or the spirit. About me: I been active all my life, I did everything for the church, I read the scriptures and church manuals, and I even read “Believest thou…?”: Faith, Cognitive Dissonance, and the Psychology of Religious Experience by Wendy Ulrich. She says, "Fortunately, we are not left with emotion alone to discern God’s hand in our lives. Reason, experience, counsel from others, and other forms of revelation may all assist us. In fact, I notice that emotion plays into only some of my spiritual experiences, and often only in a secondary way. More often the spiritual promptings and confirmations I receive come very quietly as something simply occurs to me with a kind of rightness that has no real emotion attached to it at all" Can you explain to me what she is saying? What does "kind of rightness" without emotion mean? How? "Kind of rightness without emotion" is ridiculous. It is emotion. Nothing wrong with that. That is how we find a mate and make all the major decisions of our life- it is a fantasy that rationality somehow eliminates emotion. If that is what she is saying, she is wrong.
TheSkepticChristian Posted May 9, 2016 Posted May 9, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, mfbukowski said: You asked me for scientific verification for God- I said it is not possible You countered with this- meaning that this IS the kind of "scientific evidence" you would accept. Fine- you answered your own question then, right? Then IN THE NEXT LINE you say THIS!! Contradiction!! I never asked you for scientific evidence for God, I simply said that millions believe there is. Millions think the world is 6,000 years old. I think it is unfair that millions are convinced by Intelligent Design arguments because they don't have to have a lot a lot of faith, their so-called science helps them. 1 hour ago, mfbukowski said: "Kind of rightness without emotion" is ridiculous. Why are you attacking the words of a FairMormon speaker like that? I have to go. I will say more later. Edited May 9, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian
mfbukowski Posted May 9, 2016 Posted May 9, 2016 (edited) 3 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said: I never asked you for scientific evidence for God, I simply said that millions believe there is. Millions think the world is 6,000 years old. I think it is unfair that millions are convinced by Intelligent Design arguments because they don't have to have a lot a lot of faith, their science helps them. Why are you attacking the words of a FairMormon speaker like that? I have to go. I will say more later. Don't bother- seriously. I do not believe in the infallibility of FairMormon speakers. Ready the gallows. I tried my best to communicate with you in a hundred posts. No more. Edited May 9, 2016 by mfbukowski
TheSkepticChristian Posted May 10, 2016 Posted May 10, 2016 6 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Don't bother- seriously. I do not believe in the infallibility of FairMormon speakers. It is kind of sad that the best apologetic defense of the Holy Ghost is not that good. Sadly there is no much out-there. 21 hours ago, RevTestament said: I have also experienced the presence of the Lord or Spirit so strongly that it seemed I was "lifted up" I wish I experience something like that someday, but until I experience it myself I cannot take your word, especially because I know that even healthy people hallucinate. The human brain is also very good in finding meaningless patters. I am not saying your experience is not of divine origin, but I simply don't know.
RevTestament Posted May 10, 2016 Posted May 10, 2016 10 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said: I wish I experience something like that someday, but until I experience it myself I cannot take your word, especially because I know that even healthy people hallucinate. The human brain is also very good in finding meaningless patters. I am not saying your experience is not of divine origin, but I simply don't know. Doctrine and Covenants 63:9 But, behold, faith cometh not by signs, but signs follow those that believe. Matthew 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: John 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe. Doctrine and Covenants 46:13 To some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that he was crucified for the sins of the world. 14 To others it is given to believe on their words, that they also might have eternal life if they continue faithful. You say you have been a member your whole life. Then you have heard the many stories of the workings of the Spirit. One of my favorites is the man praying in his front yard on how to help his neighbor when he heard a voice say stop the boys on the bikes. Looking up he saw nothing, so walked out to the street where he saw two young men riding bikes towards him. Dumbfounded as they rode by, he called out to them - both he and his neighbor became members. I ran across one on Beliefnet years ago who left the church, yet he still said that he had heard a voice tell him "it is true" x 2 while sitting in church investigating so he joined. Nevertheless later he read anti-church materials and became doubtful so left. There are many stories of the whisperings of the Spirit in this church. Either you believe them or they all are liars or hallucinators. I add my testimony to them that the Lord has told me this is His true church upon my asking. That doesn't mean that all the leaders have always spoken by the Spirit, or are infallible. I rather know they are not. I know Joseph Smith was a true prophet, although I also know he was a sinning man with incorrect opinions which sometimes made it into print. Nevertheless I know that the revelations in D and C are true and inspired. Alma gives one of the great talks on faith: 28 Now, we will compare the word unto a seed. Now, if ye give place, that a seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your unbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves—It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to enlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me. 29 Now behold, would not this increase your faith? I say unto you, Yea; nevertheless it hath not grown up to a perfect knowledge. 30 But behold, as the seed swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, then you must needs say that the seed is good; for behold it swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow. And now, behold, will not this strengthen your faith? Yea, it will strengthen your faith: for ye will say I know that this is a good seed; for behold it sprouteth and beginneth to grow. 31 And now, behold, are ye sure that this is a good seed? I say unto you, Yea; for every seed bringeth forth unto its own likeness. 32 Therefore, if a seed groweth it is good, but if it groweth not, behold it is not good, therefore it is cast away. 33 And now, behold, because ye have tried the experiment, and planted the seed, and it swelleth and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, ye must needs know that the seed is good. 34 And now, behold, is your knowledge perfect? Yea, your knowledge is perfect in that thing, and your faith is dormant; and this because you know, for ye know that the word hath swelled your souls, and ye also know that it hath sprouted up, that your understanding doth begin to be enlightened, and your mind doth begin to expand. 35 O then, is not this real? I say unto you, Yea, because it is light; and whatsoever is light, is good, because it is discernible, therefore ye must know that it is good; and now behold, after ye have tasted this light is your knowledge perfect? 36 Behold I say unto you, Nay; neither must ye lay aside your faith, for ye have only exercised your faith to plant the seed that ye might try the experiment to know if the seed was good. 37 And behold, as the tree beginneth to grow, ye will say: Let us nourish it with great care, that it may get root, that it may grow up, and bring forth fruit unto us. And now behold, if ye nourish it with much care it will get root, and grow up, and bring forth fruit. 38 But if ye neglect the tree, and take no thought for its nourishment, behold it will not get any root; and when the heat of the sun cometh and scorcheth it, because it hath no root it withers away, and ye pluck it up and cast it out. 39 Now, this is not because the seed was not good, neither is it because the fruit thereof would not be desirable; but it is because your ground is barren, and ye will not nourish the tree, therefore ye cannot have the fruit thereof. 40 And thus, if ye will not nourish the word, looking forward with an eye of faith to the fruit thereof, ye can never pluck of the fruit of the tree of life. 41 But if ye will nourish the word, yea, nourish the tree as it beginneth to grow, by your faith with great diligence, and with patience, looking forward to the fruit thereof, it shall take root; and behold it shall be a tree springing up unto everlasting life. 42 And because of your diligence and your faith and your patience with the word in nourishing it, that it may take root in you, behold, by and by ye shall pluck the fruitthereof, which is most precious, which is sweet above all that is sweet, and which is white above all that is white, yea, and pure above all that is pure; and ye shall feast upon this fruit even until ye are filled, that ye hunger not, neither shall ye thirst. 43 Then, my brethren, ye shall reap the rewards of your faith, and your diligence, and patience, and long-suffering, waiting for the tree to bring forth fruit unto you. I have been granted great favor by the Lord with so many experiences that my faith has grown beyond faith into sure knowledge, but with this comes great responsibility for I volunteered. I also proffer to you that this is because I have offered my services to the Lord and told Him whatever you want me to do, I will do it - just tell me. I have committed other ways and been tested. An unprofitable servant does his duty, but those who go beyond their duty shall know the Lord and reap the reward of eternal life with the Lord. Sadly, traditional Christians don't even believe in doing their duty, but lay all their burdens upon the Lord, and rely on Him to forgive them no matter their intent to return to sin.
TheSkepticChristian Posted May 12, 2016 Posted May 12, 2016 On 5/10/2016 at 9:08 AM, RevTestament said: One of my favorites is the man praying in his front yard on how to help his neighbor when he heard a voice say stop the boys on the bikes. Looking up he saw nothing, so walked out to the street where he saw two young men riding bikes towards him. Dumbfounded as they rode by, he called out to them - both he and his neighbor became members. Statistics and selection can explain that too. On 5/10/2016 at 9:08 AM, RevTestament said: I have been granted great favor by the Lord with so many experiences that my faith has grown beyond faith into sure knowledge, but with this comes great responsibility for I volunteered. I also proffer to you that this is because I have offered my services to the Lord and told Him whatever you want me to do, I will do it - just tell me. I have committed other ways and been tested. Me too, but I still have some hope that spiritual experiences might be real. As of now I feel like him but
RevTestament Posted May 12, 2016 Posted May 12, 2016 36 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said: Statistics and selection can explain that too. No, not really. Quote Me too, but I still have some hope that spiritual experiences might be real. As of now I feel like him I'm not fluent enough in Spanish to get the full meaning of this clip, but I do get he feels alone and frustrated. Do not expect any vocal answer to your prayers, but yes, spiritual experiences can be quite real. I wish you all the best in your search my friend. I don't want to belabor the point, so I'll just say put your best foot forward, and exercise patience. I have had to wait years between some of my answers/experiences. In the mean time living the gospel is usually a fulfilling experience...
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