RevTestament Posted May 4, 2016 Posted May 4, 2016 10 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said: Its not that I don't believe...I just see no evidence of one...everything that is attributed to a god...happened naturally through the laws of physics and nature , I see no miracles beyond the randomness of probabilities, no intervention from a god figure in the lives of humanity again beyond the randomness of probability The randomness of probability for us being here is so incredibly small that it is staggering. We happen to be on just the right size panet with the right size star, in the right orbit, in the right part of the galaxy, etc, etc. So the law of probability of us existing is almost nil without a God directing things. But at certain points of my life I took a more philosophical view like MFB. I accepted the proposition that if I am going to live, I would like to be happy. So then the question is how is one truly happy? I realized that the happiest moments of my life were with family and friends - they didn't have to do with me or stuff I could buy, etc. So for everyone to be happy, it makes sense that we should view each other as family. That means thinking of others, being empathetic, not self-centered etc. So who could I look to to teach these principles - the answer is Christ. Christ led by love and example. The other kind of leader I knew about leads with intimidation, fear, and force when necessary to maintain control. These types of leaders become kings, etc. So I decided just on philosophical grounds that Christ was the one to follow - even if one doesn't believe the Torah, etc. 9 hours ago, mfbukowski said: The evidence you seek doesn't exist and is irrelevant. I would say this a little differently. There may not be "objective physical" evidence but, when one begins to understand the Bible, and sees the many prophecies which have come true, and how the symbolism of books 1000+ yrs apart is consistent and makes sense, I would say that is evidence for one divine author. No other religion on earth compares. As the prophecies concerning the millennium begin to unfold, the people will begin to see definite evidence that God is behind it all.
RevTestament Posted May 4, 2016 Posted May 4, 2016 3 hours ago, mfbukowski said: I actually literally ran into John Lennon once. I lived in Greenwich Village from 1970-73 while attending graduate school. I was standing looking into a shop window , and then stepped back quickly, and ran into someone walking quickly behind me, who I had not seen. I looked up and saw Yoko Ono changing her course and walking around me. I looked in the other direction and saw John's unmistakable haircut and military-style jacket (at the time) headed in the same direction Yoko was walking. There was an entourage following him and someone said "Hey man- you just bumped into John Lennon !" That's my only brush with fame! Small world - I saw a deadpan comedian at a Fl airport. I rarely recognize people like this, but his face is very distinctive. When I saw him, he knew I recognized him, but didn't appear in the mood for a fan. I wouldn't care about meeting John Lennon, but I wouldn't mind meeting Mark Knopfler... The other day I thought I might like to have met Prince...he seems to have been a very unusual guy. I tend to like guitarists so people like Eric Clapton, would be high on my list. David Gilmour of Pink Floyd is another such talent. I met a senator of N. Carolina, but it was before he became a US Senator - Terry Sanford. A genuinely nice man. But there is someone else I know who is more famous than them all...all Christians claim to know Him. 1
mfbukowski Posted May 4, 2016 Posted May 4, 2016 1 hour ago, TheSkepticChristian said: Are you saying that religious experiences do not originate from God? and how is that not wishful thinking? Please explain "Causes" are a matter of interpretation. The video SAYS "psychology can explain" religious experience. That is only one interpretation. What was your cause? God or the big bang or your great grandfather? The course of one sperm cell or all or none of the above? Could God cause the psychologist to manipulate the poor girl into a real religious experience? The question itself is unanswerable. It is all interpretation 1
mfbukowski Posted May 4, 2016 Posted May 4, 2016 (edited) We LDS actually have a Doctrine that parallels exactly what the psychologist did. The doctrine is our concept of the fall of Adam. Satan as played by the psychologist tried to trick Adam into a false understanding of God's plan. But it turned out that what happened was actually what God wanted all along. We can see God in all things or we can see science in all things. It's up to us. We decide how to construct our worlds. Edited May 4, 2016 by mfbukowski
TheSkepticChristian Posted May 4, 2016 Posted May 4, 2016 (edited) 5 hours ago, mfbukowski said: "Causes" are a matter of interpretation. The video SAYS "psychology can explain" religious experience. That is only one interpretation. What was your cause? God or the big bang or your great grandfather? The course of one sperm cell or all or none of the above? Could God cause the psychologist to manipulate the poor girl into a real religious experience? The question itself is unanswerable. It is all interpretation Your words only help agnosticism, you basically just gave good reasons for agnosticism. So why is Theism better than Agnosticism? Edited May 4, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian
Ahab Posted May 4, 2016 Posted May 4, 2016 10 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said: Teach me? Your joking right? Pretty pompous assumption mate Do you or do you not realize now that God and human are the same kind of being? And that Jesus and we are the same kind of being as well? If you don't know that yet then yes I would like you to learn that and I am willing to repeat the precept a few dozen more times to try to teach you. Not that you will necessarily learn it but yes I will still like to have taught you that if you never do learn it. Just because it's true and I would like you to know that it is true.
Johnnie Cake Posted May 4, 2016 Author Posted May 4, 2016 8 hours ago, RevTestament said: The randomness of probability for us being here is so incredibly small that it is staggering. That's the Beauty of it... 8 hours ago, RevTestament said: We happen to be on just the right size panet with the right size star, in the right orbit, in the right part of the galaxy, etc, etc. So the law of probability of us existing is almost nil without a God directing things. Actually all of the ingredients for life were in place, all of the circumstances needed and required happened in just the right order and time that life occurred.
mfbukowski Posted May 4, 2016 Posted May 4, 2016 2 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said: Your words only help agnosticism, you basically just gave good reasons for agnosticism. So why is Theism better than Agnosticism? Already answered that. Go back and read the thread.
RevTestament Posted May 4, 2016 Posted May 4, 2016 32 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: That's the Beauty of it... Actually all of the ingredients for life were in place, all of the circumstances needed and required happened in just the right order and time that life occurred. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. That is why all the ingredients for life were in place - otherwise the probability is almost zero for our existence. DNA was designed by the chief architect. It doesn't matter to me that there is evolution. It is beautiful in its design. So complex, and yet so simple. It allows nature to maintain a balance. If you live another 5 years you will see evidence of God. But you can see it right now in His word. Seek to understand His prophecies - they testify of one divine author - for only one divine author could have written them.
TheSkepticChristian Posted May 4, 2016 Posted May 4, 2016 22 minutes ago, RevTestament said: That is why all the ingredients for life were in place - otherwise the probability is almost zero for our existence. Almost zero? If our universe (or multiverse) is infinite, then that means it happens all the time. No matter how improbable, everything happens in infinity.
RevTestament Posted May 4, 2016 Posted May 4, 2016 17 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said: Almost zero? If our universe (or multiverse) is infinite, then that means it happens all the time. No matter how improbable, everything happens in infinity. Astronomers have not shown the universe is infinite. The Big Bang Theory opines that it is not.
Ahab Posted May 4, 2016 Posted May 4, 2016 14 minutes ago, RevTestament said: Astronomers have not shown the universe is infinite. The Big Bang Theory opines that it is not. Nothing and nobody will ever be able to show that the umiverse is infinite to anybody anywhere who thinks there is an end to it. Not because there is an end to it but because someone can always think there is an end to it based on all they can see from a particular perspective. Like in the past some people thought it went only as far as they could see that it went then. And now some people think that it goes on for only as far as they can see now. And later when some people see that it is even bigger than that they will think it only goes on for that far. And what else would you expect from anyone with such limited vision? Even if you were immortal and had a space ship that would take you as far as you wanted to go you would still only be able to see only so far in the distance. And you could still think you were seeing the end of it or that the end was only just a little bit further. No matter how far you go though there will never be an end to space or an end to everything that is in it. You could spend eternity trying to get to the end and it never would end because it is truly infinite. I hope you'll knock yourself out someday when you become immortal by trying to see just how far you can go. Not that you'll ever come to the end of it but that you will reach a limit to how far you are willing to travel. Meanwhile I will still be wherever I am telling you that I told you so.
RevTestament Posted May 4, 2016 Posted May 4, 2016 56 minutes ago, Ahab said: No matter how far you go though there will never be an end to space or an end to everything that is in it. You could spend eternity trying to get to the end and it never would end because it is truly infinite. This is actually coming to be my view, because I have come to strongly doubt the Big Bang Model. Of course this argues for the premise that life can occur purely by chance, but is so rare that it may occur only once in millions of galaxies.
Ahab Posted May 4, 2016 Posted May 4, 2016 40 minutes ago, RevTestament said: This is actually coming to be my view, because I have come to strongly doubt the Big Bang Model. Of course this argues for the premise that life can occur purely by chance, but is so rare that it may occur only once in millions of galaxies. I believe life is infinite too, infinite in duration at least. Maybe not infinite as far as different kinds of beings go, but with no beginning or end to how long various kinds of beings will live or have lived. No moment when there never was any kind of living being and I believe there always have been various kinds, with our kind of being, people that is, always being the most supreme kind in all of existence. There are all kinds out there, including all of the kinds we have here, and even many still out there that are now extinct or endangered here. And transporting various kinds is something our kind seems to do fairly well.
mfbukowski Posted May 4, 2016 Posted May 4, 2016 14 hours ago, mfbukowski said: As usual, you are not listening. Of course religious experience comes from what is called "psychology" the study of the inner self The inner self is the inner self, not the objective self. There is no need to continue to belabor it. The video also misses the point. I do not dispute that our minds/spirits can be said to create religious experience, in fact that is what I am saying. That's the whole point. The kingdom of heaven is within us. Sorry- I'm done. No communication here. This is not for Skeptic. but I do want to make a couple more comments on the video for others. Notice that they admit that the "emotion is real"- what does that mean and what does it concede? It concedes that her experience was "real"- that she really did feel that emotion- which we call "spiritual experience. EVERY experience we have is "just chemicals" if you WANT TO INTERPRET IT THAT WAY. Joseph's First Vision was "just chemicals in his brain" if you want to see it that way. I will guarantee that if he was wired up to some machine during that vision, the machine would be blowing it self up with electro-chemical reactions off the charts! So what?? That is the way physical brains work!! No chemical activity = death!. The psychologist puts her into a position of being with someone she can trust- the psychologist, commentator, whatever. They have a discussion about her father- they have a discussion that by any means we would see as being about "spiritual matters". Here she has a trusted atheist- who she believes is not debating her, but a trusted person with whom she has genuine contact speaking about matters dear to the heart. In a very real sense he is misrepresenting himself, or not even understanding that he is indeed sharing a "spiritual" moment wiht her, perhaps the only one she has ever had in her life. He is deliberately opening her up to a larger understanding of life- of the importance of love and human closeness, as a safe person who she knows will not try to convert her- while he is trying to convert her, essentially through hypnosis. Also judging by the sparks flying between them, I would say she is enamored with this intelligent charismatic and good looking man who is now sharing an intimate human moment with her, talking about her deepest emotions. Here is a guy she sees as famous and successful who has brought her onto his show, and wants to genuinely talk to her about her deepest feelings, or so she thinks. He is a manipulative and evil a$$ for treating her this way for the entertainment of others. He opens her up and then exposes her to ridicule. This guy resembles and represents the character of Satan in more ways than one in my opinion. This whole video is the garden of Eden story repeated. But anyway, the point is that as I said earlier, pragmatically speaking, even "placebos" really cure people The power of the mind is great and can literally work miracles and create worlds. It can heal and it can kill and justify it either way. But seeing only one angle to this great power shows pure ignorance in my opinion. Chemicals are not the EXPERIENCE. I grew up with kids who dropped acid and had visions for days afterward, some never came out of the visions and become psychotic. Some of those brilliant students I knew if they are still alive, are probably the homeless wackos you see on street corners as grizzled old men. I know what chemicals can do. The can change our lives for better and worse. Joseph had chemical reactions in his brain and so did every prophet. Jesus himself had chemical reactions in his brain- what do you think- that he did not have a human body? What Jesus taught changed humanity- that is indisputable. If that was just chemicals, I want some more of that. The point is that science can tell us how things work. Science in essence is telling us about the hardware, and psychology tells us about the software- how we are programmed and what the program says. That's nice but it is not the CONTENT of the message. What changes lives and changes worlds is the CONTENT. It is like worrying about who delivered a letter and how the stamp machine worked to deliver the message. IRRELEVANT. What is important is the content of the letter and what it does to my and my life. THAT is religion. Skeptic asks why theism is better then confesses that he wishes he could have a spiritual experience too. That wish, right there, is why theism is "better". It gives our life purpose and we are programmed to live a purposeful life, and so we are fulfilling our programming. Or in LDS parlance we are filling the measure of our creation and having joy therein. We are programmed to want peace and joy and love and a place in the universe. Playing with that programming to disprove its purpose is itself just an attempted lie, but not even successful because all it shows is that we ARE programmed that way, without even looking at WHY. All it shows is that the hardware of the brain and the software shows that God "evolved us" to believe in him and to live together in peace so that we could. THAT is the message- THAT is the content. Trying to make that a Godless activity is ignoring the HUGE question of why we are programmed and "evolved" that way in the first place. It just totally misses the point. By light years. 2
mfbukowski Posted May 4, 2016 Posted May 4, 2016 3 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said: Almost zero? If our universe (or multiverse) is infinite, then that means it happens all the time. No matter how improbable, everything happens in infinity. Including a loving Father in Heaven who organized this universe for us to grow up in and be just like Dad. 1
TheSkepticChristian Posted May 4, 2016 Posted May 4, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Including a loving Father in Heaven who organized this universe for us to grow up in and be just like Dad. I agree, the problem is that we don't know if the universe (or multiverse) is infinite. However, I do believe that there is a super powerful and benevolent alien out-there that we can call God. Edited May 4, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian
Ahab Posted May 4, 2016 Posted May 4, 2016 47 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said: I agree, the problem is that we don't know if the universe (or multiverse) is infinite. However, I do believe that there is a super powerful and benevolent alien out-there that we can call God. Try not to be so liberal with your use of the word "we" when it comes to things "we" know and things "we" don't know as you consider the idea that some of us know some things that others of us do not know.
mfbukowski Posted May 4, 2016 Posted May 4, 2016 1 hour ago, TheSkepticChristian said: I agree, the problem is that we don't know if the universe (or multiverse) is infinite. However, I do believe that there is a super powerful and benevolent alien out-there that we can call God. I believe that too- not quite in those terms, but in substance. Why is that better than agnosticism? Answer your own question, please
JLHPROF Posted May 4, 2016 Posted May 4, 2016 1 hour ago, TheSkepticChristian said: I agree, the problem is that we don't know if the universe (or multiverse) is infinite. Depends on how you define "universe". One way it's finite, the other it's infinite.
TheSkepticChristian Posted May 5, 2016 Posted May 5, 2016 (edited) 7 hours ago, mfbukowski said: I believe that too- not quite in those terms, but in substance. Why is that better than agnosticism? Answer your own question, please There are good reasons that made me conclude his existence is highly probable. However, I don't know if he listens to our prayers. Edited May 5, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian
TheSkepticChristian Posted May 8, 2016 Posted May 8, 2016 On 5/4/2016 at 1:41 AM, mfbukowski said: Could God cause the psychologist to manipulate the poor girl into a real religious experience? The question itself is unanswerable. It is all interpretation Yes he can, but that possibility is not useful. Santa Claus can also cause parents to give toys to their children, that is a possibility too. There are millions of possibilities, but possibilities without evidence are not useful.
mfbukowski Posted May 9, 2016 Posted May 9, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, TheSkepticChristian said: Yes he can, but that possibility is not useful. Santa Claus can also cause parents to give toys to their children, that is a possibility too. There are millions of possibilities, but possibilities without evidence are not useful. I wish you well. Your worship of evidence is a false god, and you have no evidence to follow it. What is your evidence for evidence? Only ideas without evidence that you "should" have evidence- ideas which have been disproven but you will not listen. Google "death of positivisim" Bye. Edited May 9, 2016 by mfbukowski 3
Jeanne Posted May 9, 2016 Posted May 9, 2016 (edited) On 5/4/2016 at 9:57 PM, mfbukowski said: I actually literally ran into John Lennon once. I lived in Greenwich Village from 1970-73 while attending graduate school. I was standing looking into a shop window , and then stepped back quickly, and ran into someone walking quickly behind me, who I had not seen. I looked up and saw Yoko Ono changing her course and walking around me. I looked in the other direction and saw John's unmistakable haircut and military-style jacket (at the time) headed in the same direction Yoko was walking. There was an entourage following him and someone said "Hey man- you just bumped into John Lennon !" That's my only brush with fame! oh!! I would love a moment like that. Yes, i am naive and young at heart. John and Paul spoke to me..they just seemed to be a different language. I promise.,you are absolutely famous. I loved the song "Imagine" and a lot of the Beatle songs that didn't really make a lot of sense but were poetry anyway. Edited May 9, 2016 by Jeanne
TheSkepticChristian Posted May 9, 2016 Posted May 9, 2016 (edited) 40 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: What is your evidence for evidence? It works, ask a medical doctor. Ask the structural engineers that make buildings. Ask Neal Armstrong. 40 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: I wish you well. Your worship of evidence is a false god, and you have no evidence to follow it. even if our world is a video game, evidence still works. We can make observations, even if the world is not real. Edited May 9, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian
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