Willam Clayton's Journal

[Tacenda]

https://archive.org/details/williamclaytonsj00clay     https://archive.org/stream/williamclaytonsj00clay#page/2/mode/2up

I haven't read through all of these pages, but remember hearing from Grant Palmer that some things are left out of it, some things that might be damning toward JS and have been left out or will be left out of the JS's Paper Project.

Edited April 15, 2016 by Tacenda

[ALarson]

17 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

https://archive.org/details/williamclaytonsj00clay     https://archive.org/stream/williamclaytonsj00clay#page/2/mode/2up

I haven't read through all of these pages, but remember hearing from Palmer that some things are left out of it, particularly some things concerning William Law and Joseph propositioning Jane Law.  Is this true, or is this journal complete on this website, or in the Joseph Smith Papers?

His journals are an excellent resource (especially during the Nauvoo years).  I'm not sure how complete the material is that you linked too (they look good, but I'd have to read more).

Many excerpts from Clayton's Nauvoo diaries were accidentally leaked and then printed (back in the early 1980's).  I won't link to the website, but if you do a search for "Clayton's Secret Writings", you'll see where you can order a copy (I think they're available on Amazon as well).  

The history regarding how these were made public is interesting too.  It involved  Andrew F. Ehat while he was writing his master thesis at BYU (his thesis title is: "Joseph Smith's Introduction of Temple Ordinances and the 1844 Mormon Succession Question", which is also very interesting to read and available online). 

.

Edited April 15, 2016 by ALarson

[Tacenda]

4 minutes ago, ALarson said:

His journals are an excellent resource (especially during the Nauvoo years).  I'm not sure how complete the material is that you linked too (they look good, but I'd have to read more).

Many excerpts from Clayton's Nauvoo diaries were accidentally leaked and then printed (back in the early 1980's).  I won't link to the website, but if you do a search for "Clayton's Secret Writings", you'll see where you can order a copy (I think they're available on Amazon as well).  

The history regarding how these were made public is interesting too.  It involved  Andrew F. Ehat while he was writing his master thesis at BYU (his thesis title is: "Joseph Smith's Introduction of Temple Ordinances and the 1844 Mormon Succession Question", which is also very interesting to read and available online). 

.

 

In my original post I mention that JS may have propositioned Jane Law, or something to that affect.  I edited it out, because I second guessed my memory.  But here Fair Mormon addresses some things.  But I still wonder if the whole journal is in the JS's Papers yet.  http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Polygamy/Emma_Smith/Wife_swap_with_William_Law

[ALarson]

5 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

In my original post I mention that JS may have propositioned Jane Law, or something to that affect.  I edited it out, because I second guessed my memory.  But here Fair Mormon addresses some things.  But I still wonder if the whole journal is in the JS's Papers yet.  http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Polygamy/Emma_Smith/Wife_swap_with_William_Law

Clayton did record or write quite a bit about polygamy in Nauvoo, but I can't recall what he wrote regarding Jane Law.  I'll see what I can find on that though.

And, I don't know if all of Clayton's writings are included (yet) in the JS Papers project.  Maybe there is someone on here who knows more about that who will respond.

Edited April 15, 2016 by ALarson

[Jeanne]

Thanks Tacenda..I love history anyway and journals especially.

[Nevo]

Clayton's Nauvoo journals are restricted and not likely to see the light of day any time soon, though brief excerpts have been published in vols. 2 and 3 of the JSP Journals series. Still too sensitive I guess. Clayton's Manchester and pioneer journals have been publicly available for quite some time.

[ALarson]

28 minutes ago, Nevo said:

Clayton's Nauvoo journals are restricted and not likely to see the light of day any time soon, though brief excerpts have been published in vols. 2 and 3 of the JSP Journals series.

I wish they would release his Nauvoo journals in their entirety.  The excerpts are pretty fascinating to read (and are really great teasers  )

.

Edited April 15, 2016 by ALarson

[SeekingUnderstanding]

30 minutes ago, Nevo said:

Clayton's Nauvoo journals are restricted and not likely to see the light of day any time soon, though brief excerpts have been published in vols. 2 and 3 of the JSP Journals series. Still too sensitive I guess. Clayton's Manchester and pioneer journals have been publicly available for quite some time.

Given the openness of the JSPP is there a reason given? 

[cinepro]

28 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Given the openness of the JSPP is there a reason given? 

Honestly, the idea that there is stuff about Nauvoo Polygamy (recorded in the journal of a faithful observant) that the Church deems not fit for public consumption is a little worrisome.

[cinepro]

Of similar note, the Church is publishing the journals of George Q. Cannon.

 

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865652190/To-Lincoln-the-face-of-Mormonism-was-George-Q-Cannon-whose-journals-the-LDS-Church-is-publishing.html?pg=all

 

Can't wait till they get to 1886.

[Sanpitch]

I have the Clayton Journals published by Signature Press.  I think there are some questionable things in there on Joseph Smith's part, at least to me.

Page 120  Clayton is wanting to marry his wife's sister:  "..........President Joseph told me he had lately had a new item of law revealed to him in relation to myself.  He said the Lord had revealed to him that a man could only take 2 of a family except by express revelation and as I had said I intended to take Lydia he made this known for my benefit.  To have more than two in a family was apt to cause wrangles and trouble.  He finally asked if I would not give Lydia to him.  I said I would so far as I had anything to do in it.  He requested me to talk to her."

I don't know if Clayton had already married his wife's mother or another sister, anyway very convenient for Joseph to have a revelation at that time if he wanted to marry Clayton's wife's sister.  In any case she turned him down at this point. 

Ed to add my referenced book:  An Intimate Chronicle  -- The Journals of William Clayton  Edited by George D. Smith

Edited April 15, 2016 by Sanpitch
My book reference

[Tacenda]

3 minutes ago, cinepro said:

Honestly, the idea that there is stuff about Nauvoo Polygamy (recorded in the journal of a faithful observant) that the Church deems not fit for public consumption is a little worrisome.

All of the links from Fair to Brian Hale's site, from the link I provided, are pages not found now, I wonder why.  Maybe Brian Hales could answer or an apologist here. 

[Calm]

Sometimes links get broken when a site gets upgraded and the urls get changed.  It has happened a number of times with the Maxwell Institute and gets frustrating as all the links that are broken have to be found and replaced (though someone figured out a quick wat to do it for MI).  I assume they are working on replacing any broken links, but they might be waiting if the upgrading process isn't complete.  Haven't been reading much mail lately for a variety of reasons (mainly a bruised tailbone preventing me from sitting for very long and a busted laptop) so out of the loop.

[ttribe]

30 minutes ago, cinepro said:

Of similar note, the Church is publishing the journals of George Q. Cannon.

 

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865652190/To-Lincoln-the-face-of-Mormonism-was-George-Q-Cannon-whose-journals-the-LDS-Church-is-publishing.html?pg=all

 

Can't wait till they get to 1886.

Whoa, that's the first time I'd read that one.

[mapman]

Do the journals count as Joseph Smith papers? From what I've seen, the JSPP editors have said that all his papers will be published without redaction.

Edited April 15, 2016 by mapman

[Nevo]

No, the Clayton journals don't count as Joseph Smith papers (although, for some reason, the Council of Fifty minutes do).

BTW, Jonathan Stapley at BCC has provided a nice write-up of the recent history of the Clayton journal(s):

Quote

REVIEW APPENDIX I: The Nauvoo Journal of William Clayton

William Clayton was an early British convert with book-keeping experience. One year after he converted, Church leaders ordained him as a high priest and he served in the British mission presidency from 1838-1840, after which he emigrated to Nauvoo. In 1842 he began serving as Joseph Smith’s recorder and scribe. Clayton was privileged to observe Smith in the most important personal and institutional contexts. Clayton’s journal is the most detailed account of the last two years of Smith’s life. It is also the only contemporaneous account of many controversial aspects of that life: polygamy, the rift between Emma and Joseph over the topic, the temple quorum, the Council of Fifty, etc.

I am unfortunately unaware of the provenance of the Clayton journals. They were used by Church historians in the preparation of the “Manuscript History” in the 1850s and they appear to have landed, with many other important documents and items, in the personal papers of apostle and church historian, Joseph Fielding Smith. Smith eventually became Church President and a safe containing these papers became what is often referred to as the First Presidency vault. The materials archived by the First Presidency are outside of the purview of the LDS Church History Library and its registers are not public. [n1]

In the late 1970s the First Presidency granted access to several documents in their holding. It appears that three scholars received access to the Nauvoo era Clayton journals, namely James B. Allen, Andrew F. Ehat, and D. Michael Quinn. [n2] They each prepared typescripts of varying quality. As I understand it, Allen’s typescript is the most complete, with Ehat’s being the least, comprising approximately half of the holograph text. In my limited experience, Allen’s typescript is also the most accurate, with Quinn’s being the least. Each scholar used their typescripts for important scholarly contributions at the vanguard of the New Mormon History. [n3]

Ehat collaborated with Lyndon Cook on several projects, notably The Words of Joseph Smith [n4]. At the time, Ehat was a graduate student at BYU and Cook was on faculty. Ehat shared a copy of his Clayton typescript with Cook, who kept it in his office. As was common, his office was also used by student ward bishoprics. One bishopric member noticed the document, copied it, and circulated it fairly broadly. A copy eventually made it to the Tanners who published it. [n5] Lawsuits ensued. Ehat won, but the decision was overturned on appeal. [n6]

George Smith later edited the Ehat transcript and included it with publicly available Clayton journals and a transcript of a purloined copy of the Heber C. Kimball temple journal kept by Clayton in the widely cited, An Intimate Chronicle. [n7] Allen reviewed this volume and concluded that content selection of the Nauvoo journals was highly skewed, likely reflecting Ehat’s research interests. [n8]

Allen’s complete typescript has not been made publicly available beyond employees of the LDS Church History Library. However, in 2002 Allen published a revised and retitled version of his Clayton biography, which included an appendix of Clayton diary excerpts used as source material for the “Manuscript History,” which comes to most of us as the History of the Church. [n9] This appendix remains the only published transcripts of several important portions of the diary. For example before the release of J2, the source material for Section 130 of the Doctrine and Covenants was only available in this appendix.

Quinn eventually donated his research papers to the Beinecke Rare Book and Manuscript Library at Yale University, his alma mater, and his Clayton typescript is open to researchers. An unidentified party accessed this material and released two small printings (50 and 100 volumes respectively) of Clayton’s Nauvoo diary. [n10] This volume apparently includes thirty percent more text than the Ehat transcript.

It is my understanding that the distribution of the Clayton diary was viewed by many within the Church hierarchy to be exploitative and a betrayal of trust. Since their release and until the JSP, no scholars have had access to the documents. This lack of access is a critical lacuna as scholars have, out of necessity, relied on less-than-critical (and less-than-legitimate) transcripts in the analyses of the most important aspects of Joseph Smith’s life.

https://bycommonconsent.com/2012/01/06/review-joseph-smith-papers-journals-volume-2-1842-1843/

 

[ALarson]

2 hours ago, Sanpitch said:

I have the Clayton Journals published by Signature Press.  I think there are some questionable things in there on Joseph Smith's part, at least to me.

Page 120  Clayton is wanting to marry his wife's sister:  "..........President Joseph told me he had lately had a new item of law revealed to him in relation to myself.  He said the Lord had revealed to him that a man could only take 2 of a family except by express revelation and as I had said I intended to take Lydia he made this known for my benefit.  To have more than two in a family was apt to cause wrangles and trouble.  He finally asked if I would not give Lydia to him.  I said I would so far as I had anything to do in it.  He requested me to talk to her."

I don't know if Clayton had already married his wife's mother or another sister, anyway very convenient for Joseph to have a revelation at that time if he wanted to marry Clayton's wife's sister.  In any case she turned him down at this point. 

Clayton was married to 2 sisters (he married his legal wife's sister).  Ruth Moon was his first wife and Margaret Moon is her sister who he took as a plural wife.  Lydia Moon was the other sister that Clayton wanted to marry (they all lived together with his mother-in-law, the Moon sister's mother).  

But then, Joseph had a revelation stating that only 2 sisters (and no more from the same family) could be married to the same man.  Joseph wanted Lydia Moon to be one of his wives, but Lydia refused his proposal and iirc, she never did marry either of them (William Clayton or Joseph). (I'm just going from memory on all of that and just briefly summarizing.  I also remember that the mother of these girls was not too happy about all of this either.) 

Clayton has a pretty interesting history to study.  His Nauvoo journal excerpts are quite revealing about polygamy.  There is even a reference to him wanting to sleep with both his wives at the same time, I believe.

.

Edited April 15, 2016 by ALarson

[cinepro]

1 hour ago, ttribe said:

Whoa, that's the first time I'd read that one.

And then there was John's brother Frank:

Second son Frank J. Cannon was, like John Q.,married serially to two lovely and bright sisters, wedding the second after his first wife’s death in 1908. But over a period of decades, Frank demonstrated a periodic inability to maintain marital fidelity, which unraveled his career (particularly after his father’s death in 1901) as an important advisor and agent to the LDS Church’s highest-ranking leaders and the heady political career into which his extraordinary gifts had vaulted him in his mid-thirties. The embarrassment of at least one illegitimate child and his long-term propensity when stressed or bored to go on drunken sprees, often with prostitutes, contributed to his estrangement and excommunication from the LDS Church and ended Church backing for any high political position or business prominence. The mutual contempt that Frank and Church President Joseph F. Smith had for each other also contributed to Frank’s downfall. Once displaced in Mormon society, Frank J. Cannon used his considerable talents, first, in attacking the Church locally and, later, in gaining significant national prominence as an anti-Mormon campaigner in the 1910s.

https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V43N04_483.pdf

 

[ttribe]

4 minutes ago, cinepro said:

And then there was John's brother Frank:

 

 

Sounds like a loose...Cannon.

[juliann]

28 minutes ago, ALarson said:

 

Clayton has a pretty interesting history to study.  His Nauvoo journal excerpts are quite revealing about polygamy.  There is even a reference to him wanting to sleep with both his wives at the same time, I believe.

From George Smith's Sunstone article    https://www.sunstonemagazine.com/pdf/086-32-35.pdf 

 

Quote

Clayton’s journals also address his own personal feelings about plural marriage. He described feelings of affection for his wives and how a married man would court other women to marry. One month after marrying his third wife, Alice Hardman, Clayton dreamed that he "had received Miss [Emily] Cutler ~n addition to those I had already got." When he awoke he pleaded, "God if it be thy will give me that woman for a companion.’’13 Although he did not marry Emily Cutler, a month later Clayton did marry Jane Hardman, Alice’s cousin and daughter of the boardinghouse owner in Manchester where Clayton had often stayed during his mission.         p 34

Footnote 13 seems to reveal more polyandry. 

 

Quote

13 Journal, 19 October 1844 Within two months after her 13 September 1844 marriage to Clayton, Alice Hardman married an Austin Sturgess and In an 1850 census in Salt Lake City was listed as Alice Sturgess, widow However, beginning in 1852, eight years after her marriage to Clayton she would bear him four children See Journal, 149 n112 

 

[Jeanne]

2 hours ago, ttribe said:

Whoa, that's the first time I'd read that one.

Wow...when I read this, i reminded me of a favorite soap opera..."Like Sands Through the Hourglass, So Are The Days of Our Lives"!  I feel sorry for the whole fam damly.

[ALarson]

19 minutes ago, juliann said:

From George Smith's Sunstone article    https://www.sunstonemagazine.com/pdf/086-32-35.pdf 

Thanks for the link, juliann.  That was very interesting to read through.

Edited April 15, 2016 by ALarson

[ALarson]

18 minutes ago, cinepro said:

And then there was John's brother Frank:

 

 

I read Frank's book (Under the Prophet in Utah).  He was quite the guy and seemed to really love his Father.

 

Edited April 15, 2016 by ALarson

[ALarson]

48 minutes ago, juliann said:

Quote

Clayton’s journals also address his own personal feelings about plural marriage. He described feelings of affection for his wives and how a married man would court other women to marry. One month after marrying his third wife, Alice Hardman, Clayton dreamed that he "had received Miss [Emily] Cutler ~n addition to those I had already got." When he awoke he pleaded, "God if it be thy will give me that woman for a companion.’’13 Although he did not marry Emily Cutler, a month later Clayton did marry Jane Hardman, Alice’s cousin and daughter of the boardinghouse owner in Manchester where Clayton had often stayed during his mission.         p 34

Footnote 13 seems to reveal more polyandry. 

Yes.

All very interesting (I had not read this part before).

I think Clayton married at least one more plural wife while in Nauvoo.  Her name was Diantha Farr.  (I'm not sure if there were others after her.)

Edited April 15, 2016 by ALarson

[Robert F. Smith]

6 hours ago, Tacenda said:

https://archive.org/details/williamclaytonsj00clay     https://archive.org/stream/williamclaytonsj00clay#page/2/mode/2up

I haven't read through all of these pages, but remember hearing from Grant Palmer that some things are left out of it, some things that might be damning toward JS and have been left out or will be left out of the JS's Paper Project.

As noted above by Nevo, the entire Ehat document was published long ago by Jerald & Sandra Tanner and is available on the web.  It would be foolhardy for anyone to censor it now.  However, I read it in its entirety before publication by the Tanners, and found nothing problematic in it.  The Joseph Smith Papers Project has thus far not left anything out of their vast document collection, and would be incredibly stupid if they did so.  We'll have to wait and see whether all sections of the Clayton Diary reach publication.

Edited April 16, 2016 by Robert F. Smith