Willam Clayton's Journal

[Scott Lloyd]

7 hours ago, ALarson said:

Clayton did record or write quite a bit about polygamy in Nauvoo, but I can't recall what he wrote regarding Jane Law.  I'll see what I can find on that though.

And, I don't know if all of Clayton's writings are included (yet) in the JS Papers project.  Maybe there is someone on here who knows more about that who will respond.

Much of what he recorded was during the exodus across the plains to Utah and thus would fall outside the purview of the Joseph Smith Papers Project. 

Edited April 16, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[Jeanne]

4 hours ago, ALarson said:

I read Frank's book (Under the Prophet in Utah).  He was quite the guy and seemed to really love his Father.

 

Where can I best get this book?

[JulieM]

2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

As noted above by Nevo, the entire Ehat document was published long ago by Jerald & Sandra Tanner and is available on the web.  It would be foolhardy for anyone to censor it now.  However, I read it in its entirety before publication by the Tanners, and found nothing problematic in it.  The Joseph Smith Papers Project has thus far not left anything out of their vast document collection, and would be incredibly stupid if they did so.  We'll have to wait and see whether all sections of the Clayton Diary reach publication.

This is a new topic for me but I ordered me a copy of Clayton's Secret Writings (posted about by Alarson above).  

I also read some online about how Bro. Ehat sued the Tanners in an attempt to stop them from publishing what he unintentionally exposed (not his fault so it's unfortunate this happened to him when he was given access to restricted material or church archived information).   I am glad they (the Tanners) were able, in the end, to win and were able to publish parts of William Clayton's Nauvoo journal.  

It's an important record by a man (Clayton) who was a trusted insider by Joseph Smith. They seemed to be close.

I'm looking forward to reading what the Tanners published that was written by William Clayton.  I also hope it's all included in the Joseph Smith Papers too (which is a great resource).

Edited April 16, 2016 by JulieM

[JulieM]

4 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Much of what he recorded was during the exodus across the plains to Utah and thus would fall outside the purview of the Joseph Smith Papers Project. 

But what about Clayton's Nauvoo period journals? Do you think that the church will share those so they can be published in the Joseph Smith Papers? Those are certainly relevant for that period from what I have read about his close relationship with Joseph.

Hopefully they will release all of his journals for this project.  I'd imagine many are watching to see if they do.  

Have you had a chance to read the Ehat/Tanner released portions of Clayton's Nauvoo journals?

Edited April 16, 2016 by JulieM

[ALarson]

3 hours ago, Jeanne said:

Where can I best get this book?

I ordered mine from Amazon.  You can get the paperback for under $6.00 and the Kindle version is only .99:

http://www.amazon.com/Prophet-National-Menace-Political-Priestcraft-ebook/dp/B01CDJSQ2Y/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1460787766&sr=8-2&keywords=under+the+prophet+of+utah

There is a lot of really interesting information in this book regarding what was going on behind the scenes (with the Prophet and apostles too as he met with them often and writes about this) regarding polygamy and politics during that time in Utah.  It was published in 1911.  Let me know if you read it and what you think!  

.

Edited April 16, 2016 by ALarson

[ALarson]

11 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Much of what he recorded was during the exodus across the plains to Utah and thus would fall outside the purview of the Joseph Smith Papers Project. 

Yes, I agree. William Clayton kept an excellent record and I've read much of what he wrote.

As others have already pointed out though, his Nauvoo diaries/journals are important to have access to and I hope they will be included in the Joseph Smith Papers Project since the church has them.  He was Joseph's private secretary and his journals contain a lot of details regarding what was going on during the Nauvoo years.  Just the excerpts I've read have been valuable and I'd love to read them in their entirety.

Can you think of any reason why the church should not release Clayton's journal covering the Nauvoo years?

.

Edited April 16, 2016 by ALarson

[Tacenda]

9 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Yes, I agree. William Clayton kept an excellent record and I've read much of what he wrote.

As others have already pointed out though, his Nauvoo diaries/journals are important to have access to and I hope they will be included in the Joseph Smith Papers Project since the church has them.  He was Joseph's private secretary and his journals contain a lot of details regarding what was going on during the Nauvoo years.  Just the excerpts I've read have been valuable and I'd love to read them in their entirety.

.

I would think that William Clayton's journal would be one of the first to be included.  

 

[strappinglad]

We must remember that every journal that has ever been written ,be it by Bro Cannon or Bro Clayton, or Joe the Plumber, is to be regarded as the truth , the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

In any story that involves the both of us, my wife's version of events is the most correct one. Sorry, I must correct that . My wife's version is the only possible correct one. What we really need are Sister Cannon's and sister Clayton's journals . Problem is, which of the many wives do we acknowledge as the definitive source.

[omni]

16 hours ago, Sanpitch said:

I have the Clayton Journals published by Signature Press.  I think there are some questionable things in there on Joseph Smith's part, at least to me.

Page 120  Clayton is wanting to marry his wife's sister:  "..........President Joseph told me he had lately had a new item of law revealed to him in relation to myself.  He said the Lord had revealed to him that a man could only take 2 of a family except by express revelation and as I had said I intended to take Lydia he made this known for my benefit.  To have more than two in a family was apt to cause wrangles and trouble.  He finally asked if I would not give Lydia to him.  I said I would so far as I had anything to do in it.  He requested me to talk to her."

I don't know if Clayton had already married his wife's mother or another sister, anyway very convenient for Joseph to have a revelation at that time if he wanted to marry Clayton's wife's sister.  In any case she turned him down at this point. 

Ed to add my referenced book:  An Intimate Chronicle  -- The Journals of William Clayton  Edited by George D. Smith

God's sure got a funny way of revealing essential doctrines to his prophets.  He ensures Joseph is aware of seemingly arbitrary laws around polygamy such as:

1.  A man can only take 2 of a family except by express revelation.

2.  The plural wife must be a virgin.

3.  The man must first ask permission of his wife (although he can still marry additional wives regardless of her response).

Yet he fails to inform early Church prophets that Its unnecessary to seal themselves to young girls or other men to "create an unbroken chain of sealings to bind the whole world into a single human family."

[ALarson]

5 hours ago, strappinglad said:

We must remember that every journal that has ever been written ,be it by Bro Cannon or Bro Clayton, or Joe the Plumber, is to be regarded as the truth , the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Well, when there are sealing records and corroborating evidence or statements by others involved, one can piece things together and also determine the reliability of a journal.  

Are you saying that Cannon or Clayton were not truthful when writing their journals?  Is there something specific that you doubt?

I think everyone takes into account that it is their version and their point of view.

.

Edited April 16, 2016 by ALarson

[consiglieri]

20 hours ago, Nevo said:

Clayton's Nauvoo journals are restricted and not likely to see the light of day any time soon, though brief excerpts have been published in vols. 2 and 3 of the JSP Journals series. Still too sensitive I guess. Clayton's Manchester and pioneer journals have been publicly available for quite some time.

You must be mistaken, Old Bean.

Elder Oaks just got done saying in General Conference that the Church is trying to be as transparent as it can be.

[Sanpitch]

8 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

You must be mistaken, Old Bean.

Elder Oaks just got done saying in General Conference that the Church is trying to be as transparent as it can be.

Oaks might have meant, "without revealing too much."

[consiglieri]

5 minutes ago, Sanpitch said:

Oaks might have meant, "without revealing too much."

Elder Oaks seems to mean a lot of things in direct contradiction to the things he says.

[Scott Lloyd]

11 hours ago, JulieM said:

But what about Clayton's Nauvoo period journals? Do you think that the church will share those so they can be published in the Joseph Smith Papers? Those are certainly relevant for that period from what I have read about his close relationship with Joseph.

Hopefully they will release all of his journals for this project.  I'd imagine many are watching to see if they do.  

Have you had a chance to read the Ehat/Tanner released portions of Clayton's Nauvoo journals?

I'm not an expert on the Joseph Smith Papers. But I know enough to understand their scope, which is every document that Joseph personally wrote or caused to be written. By definition, then, this would exclude much of Clayton's journals, although it certainly would include some of them. 

Edited April 16, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[Jeanne]

10 hours ago, ALarson said:

I ordered mine from Amazon.  You can get the paperback for under $6.00 and the Kindle version is only .99:

http://www.amazon.com/Prophet-National-Menace-Political-Priestcraft-ebook/dp/B01CDJSQ2Y/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1460787766&sr=8-2&keywords=under+the+prophet+of+utah

There is a lot of really interesting information in this book regarding what was going on behind the scenes (with the Prophet and apostles too as he met with them often and writes about this) regarding polygamy and politics during that time in Utah.  It was published in 1911.  Let me know if you read it and what you think!  

.

Thank you so much!!!

[JulieM]

31 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I'm not an expert on the Joseph Smith Papers. But I know enough to understand their scope, which is every document that Joseph personally wrote or caused to be written. By definition, then, this would exclude much of Clayton's journals, although it certainly would include some of them. 

Oh, ok, thanks.  Then maybe they will just make them available like the Cannon journals that were just posted?  I'd imagine they release things as the can.

 

[ALarson]

5 hours ago, Jeanne said:

Thank you so much!!!

Sure!  I really enjoyed reading it, so let me know what you think  

[Jeanne]

1 hour ago, ALarson said:

Sure!  I really enjoyed reading it, so let me know what you think  

I will!

[ALarson]

On 4/15/2016 at 3:42 PM, juliann said:

From George Smith's Sunstone article    https://www.sunstonemagazine.com/pdf/086-32-35.pdf 

 

Footnote 13 seems to reveal more polyandry. 

In looking more into William's marriage to Alice Hardman (who married Austin Sturgess 2 months after her marriage to Clayton), I learned that she divorced Clayton eventually.

Two of Clayton's marriages ended in divorce.  

It appears he had 9 wives total (that there is a record for).

 

Edited April 17, 2016 by ALarson

[USU78]

On 4/16/2016 at 9:16 AM, Sanpitch said:

Oaks might have meant, "without revealing too much."

An extraordinarily nasty bit there, Sanpitch 

[USU78]

On 4/16/2016 at 6:35 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

As noted above by Nevo, the entire Ehat document was published long ago by Jerald & Sandra Tanner and is available on the web.  It would be foolhardy for anyone to censor it now.  However, I read it in its entirety before publication by the Tanners, and found nothing problematic in it.  The Joseph Smith Papers Project has thus far not left anything out of their vast document collection, and would be incredibly stupid if they did so.  We'll have to wait and see whether all sections of the Clayton Diary reach publication.

I'm curious about something :   What is one to make of individuals who trust Tanners' or Palmer's strategic edits but not others'?

[ALarson]

24 minutes ago, USU78 said:

I'm curious about something :   What is one to make of individuals who trust Tanners' or Palmer's strategic edits but not others'?

The Tanners only wrote the forward in their release of the excerpts from Clayton's journal.  The rest of the book contains exact quotes from Clayton's journal (actual photocopies of Ehat's pages with his writings and notes in the margins blocked out)  Too many people had read and seen these excerpts prior to publishing these for them to even attempt to edit or alter them.   

Ehat sued the Tanners and initially won (I think on copyright infringement), but the Tanners appealed it and won the right to publish the excerpts.  Iirc, the judge ruled that Ehat could not argue that he had the rights to these writings because they were not his....they were William Clayton's writings.  So, I'd imagine they were a part of the court proceedings too and were read and known.

Here's a copy of the legal proceedings:

http://www.kentlaw.edu/faculty/rwarner/classes/legalaspects_ukraine/copyright/cases/ehat_v_tanner.html

.

Edited April 17, 2016 by ALarson

[juliann]

2 hours ago, ALarson said:

In looking more into William's marriage to Alice Hardman (who married Austin Sturgess 2 months after her marriage to Clayton), I learned that she divorced Clayton eventually.

Two of Clayton's marriages ended in divorce.  

It appears he had 9 wives total (that there is a record for).

 

The family records are online   https://familysearch.org/patron/v2/TH-301-47090-409-1/dist.pdf?ctx=ArtCtxPublic&session=USYS7B2DEDADE5BF88CC33778BDCE75EE381_idses-prod03.a.fsglobal.net

It is a good example of why polyandry is hidden so well. It is always explained away, this one by circular reasoning. Since she married another man two months later that obviously proves that the Clayton marriage wasn't "real." However, she later has children with Clayton and it is noted that there is no additional record of any "real" marriage preceding that. Rather than deducing that the first marriage was "real," this merely means the record of a later "real" marriage is missing.This becomes even more peculiar because of that later divorce of this not "real" marriage.

Most bizarre, even though it is noted that they were "married" in Church records, this family historian still claims that it wasn't "real" because Clayton referred to it as being united in the Everlasting Covenant rather than a marriage (during a visit when she was sick.)  That only means that she was about to die and they just wanted to get her sealed to somebody. Only she married another guy two months later. And when the reasoning just can't be more skewed, the author quotes another entry from Clayton,  " Prest. Young blessed her with the blessings of the ever lasting covenant and she was sealed up to eternal life and to W[illiam] C[layton] for time and for all eternity.”

Like....what? Even with records of a marriage to Clayton prior to a marriage to another man, this author chooses one journal entry from Clayton only calling it the Everlasting Covenant as evidence it wasn't a time and eternity sealing, even though he later says it was.  Maybe I'm misreading this, but if this doesn't demonstrate why we will never understand how they practiced plural marriage, I don't know what will.

[Calm]

4 hours ago, ALarson said:

In looking more into William's marriage to Alice Hardman (who married Austin Sturgess 2 months after her marriage to Clayton), I learned that she divorced Clayton eventually.

Two of Clayton's marriages ended in divorce.  

It appears he had 9 wives total (that there is a record for).

Do we know what happened with the divorced wives?  Given the attitude of BY (he was apparently happy enough to grant divorces to plural wives who had a monogamous marriage as an alternative), I think it is important to know the context for the divorces if we are thinking of using the divorces to conclude anything.

[Robert F. Smith]

6 hours ago, USU78 said:

I'm curious about something :   What is one to make of individuals who trust Tanners' or Palmer's strategic edits but not others'?

I haven't seen the original manuscripts, so would like to see the original in the Joseph Smith Papers, although I don't know whether they will appear there.  Only then will we know whether somebody did "strategic edits," whatever those are.  Meantime, since I already had my own copy, I can say that the Tanners published the entire Ehat transcription of the manuscript without alteration.