A God Who Intervenes

[consiglieri]

13 hours ago, Mystery Meat said:

A couple of threads over the past week have had me thinking specifically about the nature of God, who he is and what he does. First, I believe God is all-loving. I also believe He has the power to directly intervene in our lives. I find no contradiction in these statements and I think saying they are mutually exclusive is black and white thinking. God is not bound by time. While I believe he cares about our struggles, sometime our struggles are what will bring us closer to Him. If your son or daughter had cancer would you not subject them to radiation and/or chemotherapy if it was the only hope for a full recovery?  Well, we all have a cancer. This cancer comes in different forms. For some it is lust; for others it is pride, greed, selfishness, sloth, or indifference. Sometime, the cure is hardly what we want. 

Also, sometime bad stuff happens. I have no problem with a loving God saying that someone's mortal experience is going to be different from mine or someone else's. I don't pretend to know why. A child may be born in Africa who is destined to die of starvation at the age of five. God chose not to intervene; but what if He is there at the other side welcoming them to a different realm where life is better than anything we can comprehend. In fact from that point of view, could we not argue that the loving thing is to let them die so they can find a fuller measure of happiness? Can we really speak evil of an eternal being who sees are sojourn here on Earth for what it is? A small electron sized spec in the grand scheme of eternity?

Now, I know that God intervenes in our lives, because he recently intervened in mine. I had a plan, I heard a voice not my own that whispered to me a different plan, I reluctantly followed, and now I am married. This was a real experience where left to my own devices I would still be single, lonely and who knows what else. I admit, sometimes I feel guilty for that. That God intervened for me, when there are countless other who are more worthy than I and who still struggle with loneliness. Yet, I do not doubt that the Lord has much in store for them if they remain faithful. For God is truly all loving and benevolent.

The issue of why God does not intervene to help the innocent is of long duration and not susceptible to easy answers.

As Macduff put it in the Scottish play upon learning his wife and children had been murdered:

 Did heaven look on,

And would not take their part?

[bluebell]

Just now, consiglieri said:

The issue of why God does not intervene to help the innocent is of long duration and not susceptible to easy answers.

As Macduff put it in the Scottish play upon learning his wife and children had been murdered:

 Did heaven look on,

And would not take their part?

I can get behind this 100%.

There are no easy answers.  Or, maybe, the answers are easy enough in theory but often far beyond difficult in practice.

[USU78]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

There are no easy answers.  Or, maybe, the answers are easy enough in theory but often far beyond difficult in practice.

I cannot count the number of times I have prayed for the relief of the suffering, either through healing or the release of death, in my life.  The latter always comes, sooner or later, but the former is a rare enough bird that when intervention happens, it's a matter for rejoicing and dancing naked on the beach [couldn't help the Vikings reference].  It's also cause for reflection on the much more interesting question of "Why this time?"  "What are we to learn from this time?"

Edited April 11, 2016 by USU78
Fumble Fingers

[bcuzbcuz]

2 hours ago, Maedros said:

I find that most people who've suffered, acknowledge and recognize the hand of God in their situation even if we don't. The rain falls on the just and unjustice alike - a bomb will kill missionaries, children, old people and murderers and robbers. Why does God allow it? I don't know - maybe the power that causes it is greater that His power to stop it - saying that its all in His plan is just to cover our hurt feelings but I doubt that He causes difficult situations to happen to us - bad things are the result of the efforts of another being. However, when we say: "If God is all-loving" then we miss the point completely, our job is not to counsel but to seek counsel, as Isaiah said:

 

"most people who've suffered, acknowledge and recognize the hand of God in their situation even if we don't."

An interesting statement. Would you mind giving some background so I can understand where your information is coming from?

Are you saying that people who suffer say, "God did this."? Or are you saying that people who suffer say, "God let the evil one do this to me"? Or should they say, as Job did, "Make me know my transgression and my sin."?

I´m not saying God is all-loving, the scriptures do. Islam states that one of the 99 names of god is all-benevolent. What I did say is that Mormonism, (and a lot of other -isms) say that we should pray and expect god to intercede. 

 There are a multitude of useless platitudes like, "What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger." Tell that to someone suffering from severe depression or PTSS. 

 

[bluebell]

9 minutes ago, bcuzbcuz said:

I´m not saying God is all-loving, the scriptures do. Islam states that one of the 99 names of god is all-benevolent. What I did say is that Mormonism, (and a lot of other -isms) say that we should pray and expect god to intercede. 

 

 

That's not what mormonism says but it is how a lot of mormons understand it.  It's an immature understanding of God's love though and one that every believer has to eventually grow out of.

Two of my favorite conference talks discuss this, and they both have the same title.

But If Not... Dennis E. Simmons

But If Not Lance B. Wickman

Both focus on the reality that though we pray for God to intercede we have to be o.k. when He doesn't.  Our faith in God's intervention in our lives cannot be centered on always getting our way. That's not what prayer is for, and that's not faith.

[Ahab]

I like that I am comfortable with my knowledge/ belief/ idea that God has a way of relieving all of the pain and suffering that anyone can possibly endure.

Not that he'll necessarily relieve everyone's,  but that he has a way to do it.  To give peace as well as joy. 

Again, not that everyone necessarily experience all of that, but that everyone can.

[Maedros]

On 4/11/2016 at 8:15 PM, bcuzbcuz said:

"most people who've suffered, acknowledge and recognize the hand of God in their situation even if we don't."

An interesting statement. Would you mind giving some background so I can understand where your information is coming from?

Are you saying that people who suffer say, "God did this."? Or are you saying that people who suffer say, "God let the evil one do this to me"? Or should they say, as Job did, "Make me know my transgression and my sin."?

I´m not saying God is all-loving, the scriptures do. Islam states that one of the 99 names of god is all-benevolent. What I did say is that Mormonism, (and a lot of other -isms) say that we should pray and expect god to intercede. 

 There are a multitude of useless platitudes like, "What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger." Tell that to someone suffering from severe depression or PTSS. 

 

What I mean to say is that those who suffer (including myself) don't question God or blame Him - maybe at first but then, we realize that we need Him to deal with the suffering: so we are forced to turn to Him because we have no other place to turn and when we do our faith in Him increases and He blesses us.

Indeed the scriptures do teach that we should "seek in order to find" and "knock and the door shall be opened" but it doesn't say that this will happen every time - the Saviour also prayed for the bitter cup to be removed but it wasn't and when it wasn't He didn't say: If God is all-loving, why did he allow this? Instead, he drank to the dregs, the bitter cup that was prepared for Him...."a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief".

Most spiritually minded people acknowledge the hand of God before, during or after they experienced suffering or pain and not as the one who caused it but as the one who forewarned, strengthened or comforted them.

 

 

 

 

 

[Stargazer]

On 4/11/2016 at 10:41 AM, consiglieri said:

The issue of why God does not intervene to help the innocent is of long duration and not susceptible to easy answers.

As Macduff put it in the Scottish play upon learning his wife and children had been murdered:

 Did heaven look on,

And would not take their part?

No it isn't susceptible to easy answers, that's for sure, but it isn't the case that God never intervenes.  If you only want to count the non-interventions, and ignore the other kind, well you go ahead.

But I have learned much in the past several months about the mercy of God.  Heaven did look on and do nothing to prevent my wife from dying of cancer, and as I have said before, I watched her breathe her last.  She did not complain that she was returning home, and I will not minimize her courage in facing her end as brightly and as positively as she did, by complaining to God that He murdered her (by not preventing her death).  Because she had to go sometime, and now was just the time it was ordained to happen.

My new wife lost her husband via the same cause that took my late wife from me, i.e. cancer, and we both have experienced what we have agreed is a very unusual outpouring of the Spirit after these tragic events in our life -- and having been led to each other, we have both found a great deal of comfort and a great depth of love in finding each other.  Like Mystery Meat has said, God has intervened in our lives to a marvelous degree, and we don't know why, but we are grateful for it.

If you don't believe it, can't credit it, and want to make God out to be so very unfair for not intervening in others' lives, well, that's your privilege.  But we trust in God, who has intervened twice in our cases -- once in taking our spouses, and another time in bringing us together in joy.  This isn't the first time, actually.  My mother died when I was seven, and two years later my father married a widow who became my stepmother and she was a great blessing in my life.  

Perhaps you aren't noticing interventions, or simply miscredit them to chance.

[churchistrue]

This is one of the big questions in life.  Problem of evil.  Agency.  All those issues are wrapped up in it.  I wrote this to help me make sense of it for myself.  

http://www.churchistrue.com/parable-of-iris-the-crying-toddler/

Two sisters, Becky and Jill, were babysitting a neighbor’s two year old child, Iris. At age 9 and 11, these two girls were barely old enough to not need babysitters themselves. Iris’s mother gave specific instructions. Put Iris to bed exactly at 8:00 and LOCK THE DOOR and DON’T ANSWER HER. She’s going to cry, she’s going to yell, she’s going do everything she can to get out of going to bed, but you’re going to have to do it.

 

Iris was a beautiful olive skinned girl with light brown hair and big brown eyes. Becky and Jill would have gladly babysat for free, they loved doting on this little girl. They enjoyed the evening, fixing her dinner, watching her shows with her on TV, and reading her favorite books to her.
 
At 8:00, they had to put her to bed. They took her to bed, tucked her in, and closed the door. A few minutes later, Iris came walking out in her sleeper, obviously not ready to go to sleep. Becky and Jill tucked her back in bed, and this time locked the door. A few minutes later they heard a knock. Then they heard Iris’ sweet little voice asking to come out. Becky and Jill looked at each other trying to muster the strength to ignore sweet little Iris. They went and stood by the door. Iris said she was scared. She started to cry. She begged them to let her out. They couldn’t take it anymore and opened the door to let her out.
 

She was so sad. REAL TEARS. How could they do this? They held her and helped her calm down. And then tucked her back into bed, said goodnight, and closed and locked the door again. Sure enough, Iris starts again with the knock, then asking, then begging, then crying.
 
Becky and Jill stood outside her door again listening to the sobs. But they were determined to be strong. They knew Iris needed to go to bed. They knew this was best for her. They put on their bravest face and endured Iris’ cries.

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

These kinds of analogies, while well-meaning, come off as trivializing the pain that some people suffer. Dying of Ebola is not comparable to a crying child being put to bed. 

[Stargazer]

3 minutes ago, JeremyOrbe-Smith said:

These kinds of analogies, while well-meaning, come off as trivializing the pain that some people suffer. Dying of Ebola is not comparable to a crying child being put to bed. 

You want to try to trivialize my having to watch, day by day, as my wife slowly succumbed to cancer?  Or trivialize my last full day of watching her while her body wound down, breath rattling in her throat, unconscious yet still alive, until her last breath has been drawn and yet her body tries three more times, to no avail, to drawn breath one last time?  Trivializing it by telling me that's all there is, and then nothing?  She's not just on the other side, she is gone totally, and I will never have the joy of her company, ever again?  That's all you got, Jeremy, a promise of loneliness.  Thanks for a whole hell of a lot of nothing.

Everyone suffers.  Everyone dies.  Blame God, or consider God not to exist, whatever you like.  And what is the point of your endless posts here?  To try to convince us one and all that our life is nothing more than fleeting happiness and in the end it signifies nothing, because that's all there is?  Just trying to spread a little hopelessness and misery around, to the benefit of everyone else?  Just so you have what?  A little company in your misery?

I wish you well in your life, and I hope you enjoy what you have, but if that's all you have to look forward to, then it's a pittance compared to what I look forward to.  If nothing else, I will have that, at least, which has given me great comfort and joy.  

 

[bluebell]

16 minutes ago, JeremyOrbe-Smith said:

These kinds of analogies, while well-meaning, come off as trivializing the pain that some people suffer. Dying of Ebola is not comparable to a crying child being put to bed. 

Death to God might very well be similar to putting a crying child to bed.  Death is really not that different than birth in religious belief in that it's a change of venue and experience more than anything else.

Besides that, many of those who died or lost loved ones to ebola were/are very religious.  Given that, it seems wrong to use their suffering and death as a way to serve your own agenda, especially when it's an agenda that they, having actually been thru the experience, might find abhorrent.  

If you want to make a point about how evil God is, it's probably best to use your own suffering as an example.  It seems more respectful than hijacking the experiences of others.

[Kevin Christensen]

As Ian Barbour points out in Myths, Models, and Paradigms, each likening, each metaphor has positive analogies, negative analogies, and is extensible.   If you lose sight of that and focus on the negative analogies available in any metaphor (for example, it may be accurate in one sense to protest that "Jesus was a preacher and carpenter's son.  Never a shepherd, let alone a good one!", but is it perceptive to do so?) you can also lose site of how an analogy can teach.  I'm almost 62, and I have had broken limbs, abrasions, bruises, sprains, bullies, humiliations, overwhelming loss and bitter frustration, dental and orthodontic work, depression, illness, surgery, kidney stones, and long nights of emotional pain and anguish growing out of the most important relationships in my life that eclipse all of the physical pains, and at this stage in my life, I do find the comparison helpful.  Even dying of Ebola is not Eternal anymore than any of the physical and emotional hardships, or long nights of solitary silence I have endured.  It's important not to absolutize what is relative.  A metaphor is teaching tool.  "To what shall I liken it that ye shall understand?" 

Patrick Carnes observes that one of the things that comes with age is a wisdom that understands what is worth getting upset about.

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

Edited April 13, 2016 by Kevin Christensen

[RevTestament]

34 minutes ago, JeremyOrbe-Smith said:

These kinds of analogies, while well-meaning, come off as trivializing the pain that some people suffer. Dying of Ebola is not comparable to a crying child being put to bed. 

"Some people suffer?" Everyone suffers pain in this life. Everyone has love ones who die, suffer sickness, etc. Everyone suffers the vicissitudes of life. The whole philosophy of Buddhism was invented for the purpose of escaping the suffering of life - and when one supposedly accomplishes this task they have reached enlightenment. The problem with that doctrine is that life is dualistic. We cannot know joy if we don't know suffering/sadness since joy is its opposite. A state of "eternal joy" without ever knowing suffering is a state of sameness. How can we appreciate joy if we have never known sorrow? To expect God to take away death is to undo the fall, and send us all back to paradise, where there is no trial, and no progression. There would be no world to try us. All my grandparents have died - not terrible tragic deaths, but I loved them, and miss them, and mourned their loss. But I realize that they were good people, and I will see them again as I believe they were repentant in Christ. This brings me joy. I have endured major sicknesses, one in which I knew my life was ebbing away - I told the doctor if they did not find what was wrong with me, I was going to die.  I have suffered from other physical maladies, extreme pain from various causes and several surgeries. Why did God make me the way He did? I think exactly so I would suffer these things.

Isaiah 53:2

2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

LDS artist tend to depict Christ as a handsome man with blue eyes, etc. Did the Father create His body to be attractive? It seems not. He was probably plain with no attractive features that often define chosen leaders. Why?

10 ¶Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put himto grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

Why did YHWH the Father cause YHWH the Son to suffer the people and to be killed by them? 

When you can answer that without believing God is a horrible, mean, unfair ogre, then you will be on your way to understanding your questions.

[Vanguard]

11 hours ago, JeremyOrbe-Smith said:

These kinds of analogies, while well-meaning, come off as trivializing the pain that some people suffer. Dying of Ebola is not comparable to a crying child being put to bed. 

While I agree with you that it sometimes does come off as trivializing the pain that some suffer, I don't know what you're suggesting should be the alternative? Do we accept the notion that our God is indeed not all-loving? That he is not all-powerful and therefore not always able to help those in need though he may be all-loving? What is your alternative other than to say there is no God?

[bcuzbcuz]

On 13 April 2016 at 4:17 PM, churchistrue said:

This is one of the big questions in life.  Problem of evil.  Agency.  All those issues are wrapped up in it.  I wrote this to help me make sense of it for myself.  

http://www.churchistrue.com/parable-of-iris-the-crying-toddler/

Two sisters, Becky and Jill, were babysitting a neighbor’s two year old child, Iris. At age 9 and 11, these two girls were barely old enough to not need babysitters themselves. Iris’s mother gave specific instructions. Put Iris to bed exactly at 8:00 and LOCK THE DOOR and DON’T ANSWER HER. She’s going to cry, she’s going to yell, she’s going do everything she can to get out of going to bed, but you’re going to have to do it.

 

Iris was a beautiful olive skinned girl with light brown hair and big brown eyes. Becky and Jill would have gladly babysat for free, they loved doting on this little girl. They enjoyed the evening, fixing her dinner, watching her shows with her on TV, and reading her favorite books to her.
 
At 8:00, they had to put her to bed. They took her to bed, tucked her in, and closed the door. A few minutes later, Iris came walking out in her sleeper, obviously not ready to go to sleep. Becky and Jill tucked her back in bed, and this time locked the door. A few minutes later they heard a knock. Then they heard Iris’ sweet little voice asking to come out. Becky and Jill looked at each other trying to muster the strength to ignore sweet little Iris. They went and stood by the door. Iris said she was scared. She started to cry. She begged them to let her out. They couldn’t take it anymore and opened the door to let her out.
 

She was so sad. REAL TEARS. How could they do this? They held her and helped her calm down. And then tucked her back into bed, said goodnight, and closed and locked the door again. Sure enough, Iris starts again with the knock, then asking, then begging, then crying.
 
Becky and Jill stood outside her door again listening to the sobs. But they were determined to be strong. They knew Iris needed to go to bed. They knew this was best for her. They put on their bravest face and endured Iris’ cries.

I would say this analogy is next to useless, definitely not a cute story. As the story states, it involves two underage girls given a responsibility beyond their years. Furthermore, the parent(s) instructions reflect a far from adequate methodology for childrearing. The parent(s) expected the two very young girls to lock a very small child into its bedroom and then to ignore any pleas or crying.   I can only imagine what anguish these two non-teens would have to face in life should anything like a fire have broken out or even if the small child's pleas represented an actual danger. 

I do know a family who left their severely handicapped child in its bedroom early on Christmas Eve while the rest of the family wrapped presents and enjoyed some relaxing time together. When they looked in on the child some hours later they found the child had suffocated between the mattress and metal frame of the bed. The guilt and blame tore the family apart.

But I digress. We, as humans, are locked here on this planet with specific instructions that any pleas of fear or anguish are to be ignored. Did I miss something?

[USU78]

37 minutes ago, bcuzbcuz said:

 Did I miss something?

parable [par-uh-buh l]

• Synonyms
• Examples
• Word Origin

See more synonyms on Thesaurus.com

noun

1.

a short allegorical story designed to illustrate or teach some truth, religious principle, or moral lesson.

2.

a statement or comment that conveys a meaning indirectly by the use of comparison, analogy, or the like.

[Jeanne]

My main concern and confusions is "God's Will".  In answers to prayers, if one suffers, if one dies, it is God's will.  If he lives, it is because of answered prayers and it is God's will.  If we can't understand it, how are we to believe it?

[Stargazer]

12 hours ago, Jeanne said:

My main concern and confusions is "God's Will".  In answers to prayers, if one suffers, if one dies, it is God's will.  If he lives, it is because of answered prayers and it is God's will.  If we can't understand it, how are we to believe it?

I don't know if I understand it.  But I definitely believe it!

And I do know that from time to time God has clearly intervened in my life to guide me along radically different pathways than I had been following.  The interesting thing (to me, at least) is that at each turn I had the ability to decline the guidance and go the way I wanted.  From the moment that I first met a member of the Church, who introduced me to the missionaries and thereby changed my life radically and forever, to the moment I received my patriarchal blessing which motivated me to serve a mission, thereby again changing my life radically (I hadn't intended to serve a mission), to the decidedly odd ways in which I found both my late wife and my new wife -- again radically changing my life.  The guidance has always been gentle, and I have always had the option of declining it.  

At how many other decision points have I declined guidance that would have led me in different paths?  I don't know.  How many have you declined?  

I have come to believe that God's Will is to be found in how we approach those inevitable decision points where we are offered pathways, and make a choice.  A man I know told me about a time he had been nearly ready to decline such a decision point, when he was about to NOT attend a particular church meeting, but reluctantly complied with the Spirit quietly urging him to go.  In that meeting he ended up meeting someone who profoundly changed his life for the good.  What would have happened if he had declined the offered pathway?  Of course he can't know it, but it's a good bet that his life would have gone on in the direction it seemed to be going, which was not a particularly positive direction.

My late wife's passing from this earth was God's will.  I am convinced of it.  He could have prevented her death, but didn't.  I am convinced that her work here was done, and that she was needed in the next stage.  Looking back, I find myself in awe of her positive attitude at the news that she would soon be passing from this scene!  I walked into her hospital room commenting how hard it had been to get to sleep that night without her with me, only to have her respond, with a smile, that I was going to have to get used to it!  She had been told just a couple of hours before that she had probably only 6 months, that the doctors wouldn't be able to slow down the cancer's progress -- and there she was, cheerfully telling me all about it!  

Faith is not knowledge.  Faith is stepping into the unknown, the darkness, trusting that the Lord is leading you in the right direction.  I am relieved to discover that, in all my years in this life, that I have learned how to follow the promptings of the Spirit, and even to recognize them when they come!  That is no small miracle, given that I am at my base, a very selfish person, who would love to go his own way.

[Stargazer]

On 4/11/2016 at 1:46 AM, JeremyOrbe-Smith said:

Stargazer, I thought you were implying that you did act based on reward or punishment because you wrote "The ancient astronaut writes that there is no God, no ultimate reward for either goodness or evil, and we are all just unwilling spectators as entropy leads ultimately to the Heat Death of the Universe, and there is NOTHING more to it than that." I'm confused by how you can then say you "don't act based on hope for a reward or fear of punishment," as if I had introduced the idea.  

I don't think it's at all true that "it literally cannot matter unless it matters forever." If we disappear after we die, then I won't be around to care; I care now, while we're alive. Nagel's essay The Absurd has a pretty decent take (though the rest of it is kinda meh, and he doesn't end up agreeing with Camus, alas) : 

I wrote "ultimate reward for either goodness or evil" to indicate that there was something beyond this present distress (our mortal lives).  Meaning that there was a result to what we have to put up with here.  Cause and effect, because what we choose here results in what happens afterwards.  The fact that there is an inevitable result to what we choose does not have to mean that we act only to gain a good result vs a bad result.  My motivation is not reward.  My motivation is RIGHT.  My non-member father promised me that he would pay for both my college education and my full-time mission, if only I got my education first.  I declined his offer and as a result had to find my own support for my mission.  I did this because my path was RIGHT, though my father's offer was basically a reward.  If I had done what he wanted, I most probably would not have served a mission.  I would have ended up married instead.  Nothing wrong with that, of course, but the better course was the one I took, because ultimately I benefited more by it.  This is because doing RIGHT is its own reward -- just as doing wrong is its own punishment.

Ah, but it truly cannot matter unless it matters forever.  You may care about the now, and I freely admit that I do care about the now (I live there, after all), but on an eternal basis the now only matters if it matters for eternity.  If you don't have an eternity, then you are literally only a cipher.  You won't matter a billion years from now.  Everything about the now will be forgotten and will be less than dust.  The pathways of your brain, imagining the world around it, will be especially a nullity, being only patterns of ephemeral energy.  Every evil and every virtuous act are ultimately only nullities.

As MacBeth said:

Quote

Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more: it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.

I am so glad that MacBeth was wrong.  

[Jeanne]

11 hours ago, Stargazer said:

I don't know if I understand it.  But I definitely believe it!

And I do know that from time to time God has clearly intervened in my life to guide me along radically different pathways than I had been following.  The interesting thing (to me, at least) is that at each turn I had the ability to decline the guidance and go the way I wanted.  From the moment that I first met a member of the Church, who introduced me to the missionaries and thereby changed my life radically and forever, to the moment I received my patriarchal blessing which motivated me to serve a mission, thereby again changing my life radically (I hadn't intended to serve a mission), to the decidedly odd ways in which I found both my late wife and my new wife -- again radically changing my life.  The guidance has always been gentle, and I have always had the option of declining it.  

At how many other decision points have I declined guidance that would have led me in different paths?  I don't know.  How many have you declined?  

I have come to believe that God's Will is to be found in how we approach those inevitable decision points where we are offered pathways, and make a choice.  A man I know told me about a time he had been nearly ready to decline such a decision point, when he was about to NOT attend a particular church meeting, but reluctantly complied with the Spirit quietly urging him to go.  In that meeting he ended up meeting someone who profoundly changed his life for the good.  What would have happened if he had declined the offered pathway?  Of course he can't know it, but it's a good bet that his life would have gone on in the direction it seemed to be going, which was not a particularly positive direction.

My late wife's passing from this earth was God's will.  I am convinced of it.  He could have prevented her death, but didn't.  I am convinced that her work here was done, and that she was needed in the next stage.  Looking back, I find myself in awe of her positive attitude at the news that she would soon be passing from this scene!  I walked into her hospital room commenting how hard it had been to get to sleep that night without her with me, only to have her respond, with a smile, that I was going to have to get used to it!  She had been told just a couple of hours before that she had probably only 6 months, that the doctors wouldn't be able to slow down the cancer's progress -- and there she was, cheerfully telling me all about it!  

Faith is not knowledge.  Faith is stepping into the unknown, the darkness, trusting that the Lord is leading you in the right direction.  I am relieved to discover that, in all my years in this life, that I have learned how to follow the promptings of the Spirit, and even to recognize them when they come!  That is no small miracle, given that I am at my base, a very selfish person, who would love to go his own way.

Thank you so much for taking the time to answer..and with you heartfelt post.  I DO understand a lot of what you are saying.  My last Christmas Eve with my husband we planned his funeral...He was so funny about it and wanted "Hotel California" to be part of it...(his humor)!  I did have to trust God at that time..it is what got me through.  With so many deaths in the family within the year and different kinds of death..I really had a hard time after my husband died.  That being said, I do try to wake up grateful each day know that some people lost entire families in a one sweep and manage to carry on.  Someday I hope to understand.  One minute Mom was in the hospital helping me ..walking floors ..while my husband was in radiation..the next minute she was gone and I looked for her there.  Why my sister would want to die..and my husband struggling to stay alive was hard to connect..and yet, because of my kids I found a way.  Just slower to the take than you are I guess.  Many hugs,

Jeanne

[stemelbow]

On ‎4‎/‎13‎/‎2016 at 8:54 AM, bluebell said:

Death to God might very well be similar to putting a crying child to bed.  Death is really not that different than birth in religious belief in that it's a change of venue and experience more than anything else.

Besides that, many of those who died or lost loved ones to ebola were/are very religious.  Given that, it seems wrong to use their suffering and death as a way to serve your own agenda, especially when it's an agenda that they, having actually been thru the experience, might find abhorrent.  

If you want to make a point about how evil God is, it's probably best to use your own suffering as an example.  It seems more respectful than hijacking the experiences of others.

Hi Bluebell, I see your defensiveness and desire to respond in the above, but I fail to see a good reason for the things you are saying.

According to you God is not concerned about death.  But the rule is do not kill people.  It is also interesting that we all have placed in us a strong desire to fight against death and to survive.  Seems odd to compare putting a baby to bed to death in that context.

Also it's silly to say Jeremy is after God.  His response was reasonable--there is suffering by many.  It's a tough issue if you think about it.  It's not as easy to dismiss such concerns by claiming he who is sad and confused about the suffering is really just trying to further an agenda, an agenda to attack God. 

This is all a very unfair way to view it, I'd say. 

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

Hi Bluebell, I see your defensiveness and desire to respond in the above, but I fail to see a good reason for the things you are saying.

Disagreeing with someone is not defensiveness.  

Quote

According to you God is not concerned about death.  But the rule is do not kill people.  It is also interesting that we all have placed in us a strong desire to fight against death and to survive.  Seems odd to compare putting a baby to bed to death in that context.

I don't believe it's odd.  What is odd to me is to believe that mortal death means the same thing to the God of the universe (the Being who sees the entire picture before Him at all times) as it does to mortals (beings who can't even see what the next hour will bring or why).  Death, because of the Atonement, is not the enemy.  It is always sad for those left behind (and that makes it horrible because of the sorrow it can cause-very real and legitimate sorrow), but for the person who dies, it's not much different than birth.  They go somewhere else, somewhere usually better.  Death, like birth, is just a door.

It's also not odd to me that even given all of that, God would not be o.k. with mortals wielding the power of death without His authority.  He's not o.k. with us wielding the power of birth without His o.k. and death is just the other side of that same coin.

Quote

Also it's silly to say Jeremy is after God.  His response was reasonable--there is suffering by many.  It's a tough issue if you think about it.  It's not as easy to dismiss such concerns by claiming he who is sad and confused about the suffering is really just trying to further an agenda, an agenda to attack God. 

I didn't say that Jeremy was after God.  I said that Jeremy is trying to prove that God is evil (and he is).  He has provided many examples to show, according to his beliefs, how immoral God is.  He's said specifically that God is immoral.  How is it unfair to view it in the same way that he has presented it?

[Raingirl]

On April 11, 2016 at 10:41 AM, consiglieri said:

The issue of why God does not intervene to help the innocent is of long duration and not susceptible to easy answers.

As Macduff put it in the Scottish play upon learning his wife and children had been murdered:

 Did heaven look on,

And would not take their part?

That quote is used in an excellent talk entitled 'The Fourth Watch', by S. Michael Wilcox, available on CD. 

But as a way of understanding and teaching, not criticizing.

[mfbukowski]

On 4/11/2016 at 1:46 AM, JeremyOrbe-Smith said:

Stargazer, I thought you were implying that you did act based on reward or punishment because you wrote "The ancient astronaut writes that there is no God, no ultimate reward for either goodness or evil, and we are all just unwilling spectators as entropy leads ultimately to the Heat Death of the Universe, and there is NOTHING more to it than that." I'm confused by how you can then say you "don't act based on hope for a reward or fear of punishment," as if I had introduced the idea.  

I don't think it's at all true that "it literally cannot matter unless it matters forever." If we disappear after we die, then I won't be around to care; I care now, while we're alive. Nagel's essay The Absurd has a pretty decent take (though the rest of it is kinda meh, and he doesn't end up agreeing with Camus, alas) : 
 

Nehor said: "I have read stuff that bad and worse and still believe God intervenes in our lives." 

Okay, but based on what evidence? I admit I'm skeptical that any such evidence actually exists. 

"You treat death and suffering as the ultimate evil and somehow they must be avoided at all costs to the point that God must stop them in all cases. Why?"

If you don't see suffering and death as the ultimate evil, I don't know what I can say to persuade you besides the tautology 'because they hurt'. I thought the whole premise of the gospel (at least as presented in, say, smarmy GC talks) is that God knows they hurt, and will heal us and resurrect us and save us from Thanatos. 1 Corinthians 15:26, "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." Revelation 21:4, "God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." 

The problem, of course, is that I see no persuasive evidence that such a being as God actually exists in reality to wipe away anyone's tears. We have to do that for each other. The scriptures are a mass of contradictory confusion, one moment claiming that God thinks sorrow and suffering and death are bad things, another moment claiming that God causes sorrow and suffering and horrific death on an absolutely unimaginable scale. 

"I am guessing you are choosy on whose meanings actually mean anything. [...] Is it just you making that call or is it an objective morality? If there is such an objective morality you support why would you hate a God who demands it?"

God doesn't demand it. 

Even the most cursory reading of scripture shows that God is the ultimate archetype of the genocidal authoritarian dictator. You mention wealth gained through impoverishing others, belief in a master race, genocide, rape, and murder? 

... have you read the Bible? 

I'm pretty sure the common folk were not living as well as Solomon, yet in Kings/Chronicles God literally comes to him in a dream and says "I will give thee riches, and wealth." From where? From the tribute extorted from the common impoverished people, comparable to how "all Judah brought to Jehoshaphat presents; and he had riches and honour in abundance." Or, much earlier, all the wealth and land and people stolen during the God-ordained conquest of Canaan. God literally designates the Israelites as a Master Race and commands them to commit genocide, for instance in Deuteronomy: "ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire. For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. [...] Thou shalt consume all the people which the Lord thy God shall deliver thee; thine eye shall have no pity upon them." God literally commands kidnapping and rape in Numbers: "Kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children ['ishshah taph], that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves." Also in Deuteronomy: "When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the Lord thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house." And I don't know how one can read the scriptures without coming to the conclusion that God positively delights in bloodshed. Psalms 2:4 says "He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure." The Lord slays Er, then Onan; He slays innumerable people throughout the Bible, either indirectly through His commands, or quite directly by His own hand. There are too many references to list. "The Lord discomfited them before Israel, and slew them with a great slaughter at Gibeon, and chased them along the way that goeth up to Beth-horon, and smote them to Azekah, and unto Makkedah." 

The scriptures show that God recognizes that we experience pain as unpleasant, and want to be saved from death. Furthermore, the scriptures claim that God has the power to make people immortal in the twinkling of an eye, so that they do not even taste death. I cannot fathom what 'lesson' some young guy in Brazil learns by having his brains slowly beaten out of his skull with a hammer. And yet we have the videos of him screaming in agony, so we know that God certainly didn't numb his pain; he definitely 'tasted death'. If a neighbor has the power to stop the murder or at least spare the agony and doesn't, that is evil. Same goes for God. We give kids shots and it hurts them, but we don't currently have the power to do it any other way. The scriptures explicitly state that God does have the power, and yet He does not intervene in any perceptible way. 

1 John 4:16 is certainly not correct when, after a thousand bloody pages of God-caused gore, it claims that "God is love." This bipolar God has the chutzpah to command us to love Him as being merciful, tender, and peaceful, even after He commits literally every possible human rights violation imaginable. If a being claiming to be God actually intervenes in the ways that the authoritative scriptures claim, that being is clearly Satan. 

Well at least you are reading philosophy finally

I am glad it obviously makes you so happy and gives you peace.

Oh wait, no evidence.  Well you reap what you sow I suppose.  Have a nice life.  One creates their own worlds no matter how it turns out.

Edited April 16, 2016 by mfbukowski