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A God Who Intervenes


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On 4/11/2016 at 6:30 AM, Atheist Mormon said:

I find your post interesting here about knowing.                                                                                                                                                    My sincere apologies if I burst your bubble about this but; A God who interferes into a single person's affairs and does not warn a young family  on upcoming tsunami let's them perish (worse, spares mother)...How does God's providence work?                                                              If faithfulness was a criteria, after I became an Atheist Mormon  my health, my business took off......now I have a place in park city, I drive a range rover.....Who should I be grateful to? I am not minimizing your experience about God but it is going to take alot more to convince a skeptic guy like me, in fact nothing shorter than a demonstration of Biblical examples......                         

Why should I bother or care?

You have found what you want apparently.  If that's all you think life is about, good for you.

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On 4/11/2016 at 7:56 AM, RevTestament said:

It is quite a jump from believing God will intervene in everything to believing He intervenes in nothing. I don't believe God will intervene to make you smarter. I believe you make yourself smarter. God works with intelligences which have always been. He doesn't make them more intelligent. In prayer if you pray for the Holy Spirit, He might help you to remain calm so your intelligence doesn't get overwhelmed etc. I believe the Holy Spirit will help you to make the right choices in life, but to believe that he will blunt your free agency by doing everything for you, would nullify our purpose for living this life.

The death and suffering you see in the world is because we are mortal beings subject to the world like other creatures. If God were to eliminate those to mollify your sense of justice. he would nullify the purpose for this probationary state. You would like for him to make us immortal, so that we have no trials in this life - no suffering, no death, etc. Instead he has rendered us all equally...mortal. 

Actually we do. We learn empathy. We learn to think of others. We learn to serve others and not ourselves. These are all godly attributes, which allow us to become more like Him. Without us learning to be willing to do this, we are stuck in a state of self-consciousness forever. He has given us a chance to prove ourselves. That we are willing to "lower ourselves" to help others. If He were to give some immortality, would they still be willing to do this? to help others?

 

Wait a minute!

You mean it's not about driving a Range Rover??  What about living in Park City??

Oh heck!  Why didn't someone tell me????

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On 4/11/2016 at 8:18 AM, Mystery Meat said:

Let me repeat, I KNOW God intervened because I heard His voice. I won't go into details as that would be lost on many of you, but the incident was so powerful that it prompted me to make this post: 

The experience I refer to is the voice which led me to the girl I am now married to. I had not kissed her at this point, and in fact she still had plenty of doubts and concerns (who can blame her?). So real was the experience that there was no doubt what would happen and it was as if we were already married (I only revealed to her this spiritual experience after we were engaged and she was ready and eager to marry me, FTR). That is evidence. You can dismiss it if you like. But its fruits are undeniable to me as I experienced them first hand and KNOW (not believe) that God directly intervened in my life.

I have heard it as well.

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On 4/11/2016 at 9:42 AM, USU78 said:

Erich Fromm would disagree.

YES!

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On 4/13/2016 at 7:31 AM, JeremyOrbe-Smith said:

These kinds of analogies, while well-meaning, come off as trivializing the pain that some people suffer. Dying of Ebola is not comparable to a crying child being put to bed. 

And how do you know what pain anyone has suffered to be able to judge that?????

Some day you will know.  Your smugness does not become you.

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6 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

And how do you know what pain anyone has suffered to be able to judge that?????

Some day you will know.  Your smugness does not become you.

You make a strange statement.

I am not a woman, I have never birthed a child. But I would be an idiot to ignore or to minimize the pain women must endure during childbirth.

Does my being a man disqualify me from being able to assess that women suffer pain during childbirth?

I've never had ebola, but I know from what I've read and seen that those who do contract it suffer tremendously.

Or is it as you say, "Why should I bother or care?"

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On 4/11/2016 at 10:22 AM, Mystery Meat said:

You will note that I never said that wealth is direct sign of God's providence. I don't believe the doctrine that if you keep the commandments you will prosper (materially). I think it is false. 

What is false about it? I'm giving you a tangible evidence, rather than hearing a voice, which you only can substantiate. Why is that individuals like you are blessed vs millions are wasted (they are beautiful minds too). It doesn't make sense because universe doesn't care about who gets help, who doesn't. 

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2 hours ago, bcuzbcuz said:

You make a strange statement.

I am not a woman, I have never birthed a child. But I would be an idiot to ignore or to minimize the pain women must endure during childbirth.

Does my being a man disqualify me from being able to assess that women suffer pain during childbirth?

I've never had ebola, but I know from what I've read and seen that those who do contract it suffer tremendously.

Or is it as you say, "Why should I bother or care?"

Cheap shot out of context and you know it

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1 hour ago, Atheist Mormon said:

What is false about it? I'm giving you a tangible evidence, rather than hearing a voice, which you only can substantiate. Why is that individuals like you are blessed vs millions are wasted (they are beautiful minds too). It doesn't make sense because universe doesn't care about who gets help, who doesn't. 

God is not the universe.

The belief is that he has a plan, a metaphysical statement taken on faith.

Your "argument" is irrelevant to the statement.  Evidence is irrelevant in this kind of argument. It's kind of like arguing that riches are "good"

 

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1 hour ago, Atheist Mormon said:

What is false about it? I'm giving you a tangible evidence, rather than hearing a voice, which you only can substantiate. Why is that individuals like you are blessed vs millions are wasted (they are beautiful minds too). It doesn't make sense because universe doesn't care about who gets help, who doesn't. 

I doubt that MM believes that he is the only one who is blessed or that millions aren't.  It's not like if someone has had an experience of divine intervention that that means they believe that God always intervenes for them and never does for those who believe differently.

 

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12 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Why should I bother or care?

You have found what you want apparently.  If that's all you think life is about, good for you.

No, I still look for it, in case I missed it....But so far I am following a tangible, observable path with evidences.

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

God is not the universe.

The belief is that he has a plan, a metaphysical statement taken on faith.

Your "argument" is irrelevant to the statement.  Evidence is irrelevant in this kind of argument. It's kind of like arguing that riches are "good"

 

Since I cannot observe or verify anything supernatural or outside of universe I'll take a raincheck on God. I tried to follow the faith part of this plan but it was thankless, ungratified empty path; The element made me so frustrated was that God wanted always something from me; prayer, tithing, obedience without reciprocating an iota.... So I decided to invest in myself and people......

 

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4 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

Since I cannot observe or verify anything supernatural or outside of universe I'll take a raincheck on God.

The burden is on God to prove that He exists.

I tried to follow the faith part of this plan but it was thankless, ungratified empty path;

  God is supposed to be a big vending machine in the sky -- I put something in and out pops a bless.
I do good things, and what do I get in return -- zip, no gratitude, no happiness, just emptiness. If there is a God, He is not keeping His side of the bargain.

The element made me so frustrated was that God wanted always something from me; prayer, tithing, obedience without reciprocating an iota.... So I decided to invest in myself and people......

God demands so much from me, and gives me nothing in return.  So now I'm looking out for #1.  Now I'm happy, and my life is full of purpose.  So who needs Him.

 

 

Edited by cdowis
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On ‎4‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 0:41 AM, Stargazer said:

Wow, that is great news!  I've had the same experience, and am also recently married.  See the thread HERE for more about that.

The circumstances of our even becoming acquainted at all, and the spiritual events that were involved in the process made it entirely clear to me that God was definitely intervening.  

I don't think that just because God doesn't intervene in the lives of other, supposedly more worthy individuals, it means that He doesn't love them, or loves them less.  I am convinced that we largely experience what we experience as a result of what God sees that we need.  I believe that being faithful despite all that we must endure is the supreme test.  Job was tested severely, and stayed faithful despite it all.  The fact that he was rewarded in the end, whereas some others are rewarded after this life only, doesn't matter a hoot-n-holler.  Nothing we are rewarded with in this life can possibly hold a candle to the rewards that will be available in Eternal Life.

Job was likely not a real person but rather an allegory or story to try to make sense of the senseless suffering humans go through.  If God really made a deal with Ludifer as it related to Job God is simple a creep and a capricious narcissist.

 

 

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On 4/14/2016 at 11:21 AM, USU78 said:
On 4/16/2016 at 0:30 AM, mfbukowski said:

Why should I bother or care?

You have found what you want apparently.  If that's all you think life is about, good for you.

 

You should, because nobody cares, except yourself....There's no outside influence directing your life on a positive way vs someone is going to other unfortunate direction because of his/her unbelief...... 

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On 4/16/2016 at 9:55 AM, mfbukowski said:

God is not the universe.

The belief is that he has a plan, a metaphysical statement taken on faith.

Your "argument" is irrelevant to the statement.  Evidence is irrelevant in this kind of argument. It's kind of like arguing that riches are "good"

 

"arguing that riches are "good""

This is not me, the Scriptures promises this everywhere....

Read Mosiah 3:5-3:8......

It never happened as far as we know......

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11 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

You should, because nobody cares, except yourself....There's no outside influence directing your life on a positive way vs someone is going to other unfortunate direction because of his/her unbelief...... 

This is unintelligible to me, and yet I want to understand you.

Please say it again in a different way.

Complete sentences with subject and predicates help- complete statements.

Edited by mfbukowski
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"Senseless suffering"...seems to be the theme of this thread.

I'm currently re-reading "Man's Search For Meaning".  I would recommend reading it for some of you.  A few quotes:

        "In some ways suffering ceases to be suffering at the moment it finds a meaning, such as the meaning of a sacrifice."
 
 "To draw an analogy: a man's
  suffering is similar to the behavior
  of a gas. If a certain quantity of gas
  is pumped into an empty chamber,
  it will fill the chamber completely
  and evenly, no matter how big
  the chamber. Thus suffering
  completely fills the human soul  
  and conscious mind, no matter
  whether the suffering is great or
  little. Therefore the "size"
  of human suffering is
  absolutely relative."
 
Those are currently my best
answers.  As for some of you:
 
       "The pessimist resembles a man who observes with fear and sadness that his wall calendar, from which he daily tears a sheet, grows thinner with each passing day. On the other hand, the person who attacks the problems of life actively is like a man who removes each successive leaf from his calendar and files it neatly and carefully away with its predecessors, after first having jotted down a few diary notes on the back. He can reflect with pride and joy on all the richness set down in these notes, on all the life he has already lived to the fullest. What will it matter to him if he notices that he is growing old? Has he any reason to envy the young people whom he sees, or wax nostalgic over his own lost youth? What reasons has he to envy a young person? For the possibilities that a young person has, the future which is in store for him?

No, thank you,' he will think. 'Instead of possibilities, I have realities in my past, not only the reality of work done and of love loved, but of sufferings bravely suffered. These sufferings are even the things of which I am most proud, although these are things which cannot inspire envy.' "
 
If there is no meaning in suffering, there 
is no meaning to life.  I'm not sure what a 
better alternative is?
 
Edit: Sorry the format is screwed up, my phone is being weird
 
 
Edited by SteveO
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20 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

"arguing that riches are "good""

This is not me, the Scriptures promises this everywhere....

Read Mosiah 3:5-3:8......

It never happened as far as we know......

ANYONE

If you understand these last two posts by Atheist Mormon, will you please translate them?

They appear to be random words to me.  I see no coherent points whatsoever

Edited by mfbukowski
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10 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

ANYONE

If you understand these last two posts by Atheist Mormon, will you please translate them?

They appear to be random words to me.  I see no coherent points whatsoever

I'm with you--I've read these posts a few times and still don't quite get his point.  My guess is that in the last post he probably meant to cite a different scripture.

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12 minutes ago, Okrahomer said:

I'm with you--I've read these posts a few times and still don't quite get his point.  My guess is that in the last post he probably meant to cite a different scripture.

The Mosiah 3:5-8 has nothing to do with riches being good.  I am glad I am not the only one!

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On 4/16/2016 at 4:37 PM, Teancum said:

Job was likely not a real person but rather an allegory or story to try to make sense of the senseless suffering humans go through.  If God really made a deal with Ludifer as it related to Job God is simple a creep and a capricious narcissist.

 

 

You don't know.  I don't know.  As an allegory it is intended to teach principles considered important.  

 

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14 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

You don't know.  I don't know.  As an allegory it is intended to teach principles considered important.  

 

Well there is no evidence that Job was real. And it seems odd that God would be bargaining with Lucifer who he has already allegedly cast out.  And to let Lucifer kill Job's family and reek havoc on Job just to see if Job would stay faithful, well this seems more like Zeus on Olympus,.

But I can accept it as a nice story to teach us to be patient through suffering because one thing is sure. Almost all humans suffer to one degree or many.

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29 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

The Mosiah 3:5-8 has nothing to do with riches being good.  I am glad I am not the only one!

working mighty miracles, such as healing the sick, raising the dead, causing the lame to walk, the blind to receive their sight, and the deaf to hear, and curing all manner of diseases.
3:6 And he shall cast out devils, or the evil spirits which dwell in the hearts of the children of men.

 

 

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17 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Well there is no evidence that Job was real. And it seems odd that God would be bargaining with Lucifer who he has already allegedly cast out.  And to let Lucifer kill Job's family and reek havoc on Job just to see if Job would stay faithful, well this seems more like Zeus on Olympus,.

But I can accept it as a nice story to teach us to be patient through suffering because one thing is sure. Almost all humans suffer to one degree or many.

There's no evidence that Moses was real, nor even Abraham, Isaac, or Jacob.  

 

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