Slowest Church Growth Rate Since the Great Depression

[Robert F. Smith]

16 hours ago, consiglieri said:

I respect your right to interpret the statements in that manner, but having lived through it, I would tend to see such an interpretation as revisionist history.

.....................................................

In the case of three of those you cited, Counselor, they specifically stated that it was the Gospel which was the stone which would fill the Earth -- just as you quoted them.  Naturally, your desire is to see that as prophecy that the LDS Church (Kingdom of God) will fill the Earth with absolute membership numbers at the End Time, so that you can then claim that such is not possible at current rates of growth.  Your straw man thus conveniently fits your eisegesis.  However, that takes place only via a fast-talking conversion of Gospel to Church.  They are not and never have been the same.  That is true revisionism.

In addition, you are once again ignoring history, which does not take place in a fortnight, but rather over lengthy periods.  You have once again lost perspective, Counselor.  Take a step back and look at the big picture.

[Duncan]

3 hours ago, why me said:

This is true. I think that the main problem are the conversions that occur without such a testimony. I think that this may happen a lot these days. I also think that the spirit does have difficulties when a person's heart has been hardened. And I think that many people in europe have hardened their hearts when it comes to faith or changing faiths. However, on the other hand, in europe there is a much more islamist tendency where faith is extremely important and such islamists are having a very strong effect within various muslim communities in  europe. I am not speaking about extremism but of orthodoxy. And I think that this is a direct reaction against western secularism. Hopefully, the christian faith and its values will become more important for europeans and for other christians in the world.

http://www.politico.eu/article/brussels-attacks-terrorism-europe-muslims-brussels-attacks-airport-metro/

And we can see this in many parts of the world also.

I've said this before but folks like Brigham Young, David O. Mckay and there was this lady in my stake that prayed from like 1968 to the late '80's to know the BOM was true before she got her answer so it seems like God doesn't answer questions to the truthfulness in like two weeks like the missionaries are asking folks to do or are being asked to ask them. Why do we expect God to answer truth claims in such a short amount of time, as illustrated by the fact he didn't answer these other people's prayers when they wanted to know?

[Gray]

2 minutes ago, Duncan said:

I've said this before but folks like Brigham Young, David O. Mckay and there was this lady in my stake that prayed from like 1968 to the late '80's to know the BOM was true before she got her answer so it seems like God doesn't answer questions to the truthfulness in like two weeks like the missionaries are asking folks to do or are being asked to ask them. Why do we expect God to answer truth claims in such a short amount of time, as illustrated by the fact he didn't answer these other people's prayers when they wanted to know?

Yes, the rush to get people baptized within weeks of meeting the missionaries has always struck me as wrong headed, even when I was a missionary 

[thesometimesaint]

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

So we reached .2 percent of the world, and let's be honest that's a great exaggeration since many of that number don't consider themselves to be LDS, and we've saturated?  I think it far more likely that our messaging and our ineffective methods are the problem.  We aren't reaching people because we aren't adapting at this point. 

Non-sequitur.

[Scott Lloyd]

3 hours ago, Duncan said:

I've said this before but folks like Brigham Young, David O. Mckay and there was this lady in my stake that prayed from like 1968 to the late '80's to know the BOM was true before she got her answer so it seems like God doesn't answer questions to the truthfulness in like two weeks like the missionaries are asking folks to do or are being asked to ask them. Why do we expect God to answer truth claims in such a short amount of time, as illustrated by the fact he didn't answer these other people's prayers when they wanted to know?

 

3 hours ago, Gray said:

Yes, the rush to get people baptized within weeks of meeting the missionaries has always struck me as wrong headed, even when I was a missionary 

Though the instances are relatively few, some people are ready for baptism not long after meeting the missionaries. Likely, there has been some period of preparation that has transpired in their lives that may not be readily identifiable to outside observers, but is very real nonetheless.

For others (I'd say most others), it takes longer, and we work with them for as long as it takes.

We accept people as we find them and we try to meet the needs they have, whatever they may be, and help them along the road from whatever point we find them.

Meanwhile, I have perceived nothing in the letters from my missionary son about people being rushed into baptism before they are ready. Certainly we didn't do that when I was a missionary.

If anything the pre-baptism interview by the district or zone leader is designed to prevent that from happening.

Edited April 6, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[Tacenda]

2 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

 

Though the instances are relatively few, some people are ready for baptism not long after meeting the missionaries. Likely, there has been some period of preparation that has transpired in their lives that may not be readily identifiable to outside observers, but is very real nonetheless.

For others (I'd say most others), it takes longer, and we work with them for as long as it takes.

We accept people as we find them and we try to meet the needs the needs they have, whatever they may be and help them along the road .

Meanwhile, I have perceived nothing in the letters from my missionary son about people being rushed into baptism before they are ready. Certainly we didn't do that when I was a missionary.

If anything the pre-baptism interview by the district or zone leader is designed to prevent that from happening.

I wonder why the church isn't willing to work with people like Bruce?  I'm sure that there are some people that the missionaries work with that have come from a stance of believing JS a fraud.  Not to change the subject, maybe I'll bring it up in the other thread.  The comment struck me so much that I had to bring it up.

[Johnnie Cake]

22 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

That you think the DNA argument still has legs does not speak well for you. Have you read the "Gospel Topics" essay on the subject?

That you think the DNA argument has "NO" legs does not speak well for you. Have you read the "latest Science" on the subject? Subject for another thread, but to salvage the Book of Mormon the apologetic argument has had to dilute the Lehite blood lines down to the equivalent of a quest for a search of a grain of salt dropped into Sahara Desert.  White that might be satisfying to believers to anyone else its a non-starter.

[thesometimesaint]

They have to be willing to be worked with.

[Scott Lloyd]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I wonder why the church isn't willing to work with people like Bruce?  I'm sure that there are some people that the missionaries work with that have come from a stance of believing JS a fraud.  Not to change the subject, maybe I'll bring it up in the other thread.  The comment struck me so much that I had to bring it up.

It's not self-evident that the Church isn't willing to work with people like Bruce.

And TSS put it well when he said they have to be willing to be worked with.

 

[Scott Lloyd]

2 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

That you think the DNA argument has "NO" legs does not speak well for you. Have you read the "latest Science" on the subject? Subject for another thread, but to salvage the Book of Mormon the apologetic argument has had to dilute the Lehite blood lines down to the equivalent of a quest for a search of a grain of salt dropped into Sahara Desert.  White that might be satisfying to believers to anyone else its a non-starter.

You don't get it.

It only takes one ancestral line to carry forward the blessings, obligations and promises of the gospel covenant. Likewise, one ancestral lineage is quite enough to carry forward the promises in the Book of Mormon to the descendants of the Nephites and Lamanites. It is not necessary that there be a dominant -- or even a readily traceable -- ancestral lineage for the descendants to inherit the blessings and obligations of the covenant.

As with other critics, your notion that DNA research disproves or discredits the Book of Mormon appears to be based on faulty assumptions and a faulty understanding of what the book claims for itself.

 

Edited April 6, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[Duncan]

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

 

Though the instances are relatively few, some people are ready for baptism not long after meeting the missionaries. Likely, there has been some period of preparation that has transpired in their lives that may not be readily identifiable to outside observers, but is very real nonetheless.

For others (I'd say most others), it takes longer, and we work with them for as long as it takes.

We accept people as we find them and we try to meet the needs they have, whatever they may be, and help them along the road from whatever point we find them.

Meanwhile, I have perceived nothing in the letters from my missionary son about people being rushed into baptism before they are ready. Certainly we didn't do that when I was a missionary.

If anything the pre-baptism interview by the district or zone leader is designed to prevent that from happening.

I have only seen one person who didn't pass the interview, It seems like the interview is just a mere formality. This mission has a rule that every companionship has to have at least 2 baptismal commits at all times-I doubt any has that but they are supposed to. It just seems too salesmanshippy and guily trippy and honestly I am not one bit surprised missionaries break under the pressure and quit or just give up on the Church. How to turn the missionaries into teachers and not like they are selling soap and pencils or something is I don't know

[Scott Lloyd]

7 minutes ago, Duncan said:

I have only seen one person who didn't pass the interview, It seems like the interview is just a mere formality. This mission has a rule that every companionship has to have at least 2 baptismal commits at all times-I doubt any has that but they are supposed to. It just seems too salesmanshippy and guily trippy and honestly I am not one bit surprised missionaries break under the pressure and quit or just give up on the Church. How to turn the missionaries into teachers and not like they are selling soap and pencils or something is I don't know

I agree with you. Such a rule seems quite inappropriate to me. It is as though there is an assumption one can control the exercise of agency by others.

I would not do well with a mission rule like that. I hope it is not proliferating in the missions.

Whatever else it might be, a commitment to baptism needs to be voluntary and sincere, not forced or pressured.

[cdowis]

4 hours ago, Gray said:

Yes, the rush to get people baptized within weeks of meeting the missionaries has always struck me as wrong headed, even when I was a missionary 

I also agree, but maybe, just maybe the church leaders know something that I don't know.  I really don't think they are playing a numbers game, but there is something about being on the records of the church, even if someone is inactive.  The church has also been very reticent to remove someone from the church records, until it was recently compelled to do so to expedite the process.

I know how outsiders may view this, but there is something here that I don't understand. about the importance of being a member of record.

Edited April 6, 2016 by cdowis

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

That you think the DNA argument has "NO" legs does not speak well for you. Have you read the "latest Science" on the subject? Subject for another thread, but to salvage the Book of Mormon the apologetic argument has had to dilute the Lehite blood lines down to the equivalent of a quest for a search of a grain of salt dropped into Sahara Desert.  White that might be satisfying to believers to anyone else its a non-starter.

O.K., Johnnie, tell us about the "latest science" on the subject, and explain why the bottleneck problem and the founder effect are merely a sop to believers of some kind -- but "a non-starter" to anyone else.  Is that what the scientific literature indicates?

[stemelbow]

23 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Adapting our message meaning what exactly?

As far as I'm concerned I hope our message never becomes more "inclusive" to gain converts at the expense of doctrine or principles.  If it did we'd only be selling them lies anyway.

I don't know the precise direction of the messaging.  But one thing is obvious to me the messaging is not resonating with people.  It feels like the message comes off as, "hey we've got something that really makes people great.  We're the happiest and finest people around."  But when they look into it they find we're no more happy nor are we any more resilient than others.  It's not the teachings that make a man, it seems, but whether that individual rises to the challenge of attacking life with inner peace and confidence.  I've always felt that GOd works on the individual whether that individual is in the Church or not, but it feels the degree is no different making membership a superfluous point.  WHat we need to do is get the point of making membership more meaningful.  We're simply not there, unless we consider the rameumptum-like pride and gratitude members have for their membership. 

[stemelbow]

22 hours ago, thesometimesaint said:

Non-sequitur.

As much as a non-sequitur as people claiming the reasoning behind the declining growth rate is the signs of the times, or the world is getting more evil.  Well, actually probably less as much as a non-sequitur because of that.  But it's nice throwing out ideas to discuss, no? 

[thesometimesaint]

8 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I don't know the precise direction of the messaging.  But one thing is obvious to me the messaging is not resonating with people.  It feels like the message comes off as, "hey we've got something that really makes people great.  We're the happiest and finest people around."  But when they look into it they find we're no more happy nor are we any more resilient than others.  It's not the teachings that make a man, it seems, but whether that individual rises to the challenge of attacking life with inner peace and confidence.  I've always felt that GOd works on the individual whether that individual is in the Church or not, but it feels the degree is no different making membership a superfluous point.  WHat we need to do is get the point of making membership more meaningful.  We're simply not there, unless we consider the rameumptum-like pride and gratitude members have for their membership. 

Failure to see the forest for the tree's.

[JLHPROF]

23 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I don't know the precise direction of the messaging.  But one thing is obvious to me the messaging is not resonating with people.  It feels like the message comes off as, "hey we've got something that really makes people great.  We're the happiest and finest people around."  But when they look into it they find we're no more happy nor are we any more resilient than others.  It's not the teachings that make a man, it seems, but whether that individual rises to the challenge of attacking life with inner peace and confidence.  I've always felt that GOd works on the individual whether that individual is in the Church or not, but it feels the degree is no different making membership a superfluous point.  WHat we need to do is get the point of making membership more meaningful.  We're simply not there, unless we consider the rameumptum-like pride and gratitude members have for their membership. 

Straight is the gate and narrow is the way and few there be that find it. 

There will always be people who have no desire to search, no matter what the missionaries teach.  I don't know that making the message more resonating or attractive really does any favors, especially if people convert then leave when the gospel turns out not to be made in their image.

[california boy]

23 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

 

Though the instances are relatively few, some people are ready for baptism not long after meeting the missionaries. Likely, there has been some period of preparation that has transpired in their lives that may not be readily identifiable to outside observers, but is very real nonetheless.

For others (I'd say most others), it takes longer, and we work with them for as long as it takes.

We accept people as we find them and we try to meet the needs they have, whatever they may be, and help them along the road from whatever point we find them.

Meanwhile, I have perceived nothing in the letters from my missionary son about people being rushed into baptism before they are ready. Certainly we didn't do that when I was a missionary.

If anything the pre-baptism interview by the district or zone leader is designed to prevent that from happening.

The real question is why do missionary work at all. It seems like a huge effort to go against prophesy. And it is not like it is saving billions of people. A fraction of one percent ever become members. It is pretty clear that the plan of salvation is to teach and baptism after people die. Especially since it is worse to make covenants and then not be able to keep them. The whole thing makes no sense 

[california boy]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

Straight is the gate and narrow is the way and few there be that find it. 

There will always be people who have no desire to search, no matter what the missionaries teach.  I don't know that making the message more resonating or attractive really does any favors, especially if people convert then leave when the gospel turns out not to be made in their image.

You know there are real reasons why few people find it. It is almost like God did every thing he could possibly do to make  it impossible to even find the path to the gate. He has his prophet marry 14 year olds and other men's wives  He has gold plates made and then uses a peep stone  to translate them. He hides the DNA of all the Israelite blood  He allows racists policies to bar blacks from temple marriage  He forbids gay children from being baptized making the church look rabidly bigoted  Sheeze, how much more difficult could God make it for people to find this narrow gate?  It is pretty clear that joining the church is NOT the plan

 

 

His church hard to find. 

[JLHPROF]

20 minutes ago, california boy said:

You know there are real reasons why few people find it. It is almost like God did every thing he could possibly do to make  it impossible to even find the path to the gate. He has his prophet marry 14 year olds and other men's wives  He has gold plates made and then uses a peep stone  to translate them. He hides the DNA of all the Israelite blood  He allows racists policies to bar blacks from temple marriage  He forbids gay children from being baptized making the church look rabidly bigoted  Sheeze, how much more difficult could God make it for people to find this narrow gate?  It is pretty clear that joining the church is NOT the plan

 

 

His church hard to find.

Yes, you are right.  He does make it hard for people to find when the gospel turns out not to be made in their image.
Our own wills, false traditions, cultural beliefs, preconceived notions, and every trick the adversary can muster all stand ready to cloud the path.

I think it's pretty clear that joining the Church IS the plan, if a person is able to put God ahead of all other considerations.

[california boy]

24 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Yes, you are right.  He does make it hard for people to find when the gospel turns out not to be made in their image.
Our own wills, false traditions, cultural beliefs, preconceived notions, and every trick the adversary can muster all stand ready to cloud the path.

I think it's pretty clear that joining the Church IS the plan, if a person is able to put God ahead of all other considerations.

Really?  You think joining the church is the plan???   Do you think this plan is successful???  Or a colossal failure especially since the church was not even on the earth for centuries.  What kind of plan is that???

[JLHPROF]

3 minutes ago, california boy said:

Really?  You think joining the church is the plan???   Do you think this plan is successful???  Or a colossal failure especially since the church was not even on the earth for centuries.  What kind of plan is that???

The corporate church as incorporated April 6 1830 in New York wasn't on the earth.  But Joseph was baptized and confirmed in 1829.  He was baptized into Christ's Church.

Christ's church into which we are baptized and confirmed (regardless of name) has been much more available.
And since the "plan" also includes work for the dead everyone will have the opportunity to accept or reject Christ's Church by accepting or rejecting an authorized baptism.

[rockpond]

15 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

The corporate church as incorporated April 6 1830 in New York wasn't on the earth.  But Joseph was baptized and confirmed in 1829.  He was baptized into Christ's Church.

Christ's church into which we are baptized and confirmed (regardless of name) has been much more available.
And since the "plan" also includes work for the dead everyone will have the opportunity to accept or reject Christ's Church by accepting or rejecting an authorized baptism.

We dismiss any baptism not performed under the name and authority of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

[rockpond]

22 minutes ago, california boy said:

Really?  You think joining the church is the plan???   Do you think this plan is successful???  Or a colossal failure especially since the church was not even on the earth for centuries.  What kind of plan is that???

It seems that we're increasingly defining ourselves more as the holder of the keys, rather than a Church that needs to gain more living souls here on earth.  So, no, I don't think that joining the church is still considered "the plan".  As you pointed out, our new policy is that one shouldn't make the covenants if they don't have a good shot at keeping them... just wait til you die, we'll take care of it, and nothing will be withheld.