carbon dioxide Posted April 3, 2016 Posted April 3, 2016 5 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said: With the announced 261,862 growth in church membership taking total church membership to 15,634,199 for an annual growth rate of 1.7% the church continued it's downward growth trend reaching a growth rate not seen since the Great Depression or 78 years... what is most striking is this downward trend is despite the increase in missionary numbers to historic levels...but the convert to missionary ratio hit a new low thoughts? Perhaps the field is not white anymore. Perhaps the fields is turning brown and instead of being ready to harvest, it is nearing the time that the field needs to be burned.
JLHPROF Posted April 3, 2016 Posted April 3, 2016 13 minutes ago, PeterPear said: Silly. Helaman 14:2 Cannot the Lord reveal the year without the day or hour? That was to do with the birth of Christ, not the return. The end has always been a mystery. LDS.org says: time of coming is nigh at hand: D&C 1:12 D&C 34:7 ; D&C 35:15 ; D&C 43:17 ; D&C 49:6 ; D&C 104:59 ; D&C 106:4 ; D&C 110:16 ; D&C 133:17 and no man knows hour and day of the Lord’s coming: D&C 39:21 D&C 49:7 ; D&C 61:38 ; Matt. 24:36 In fact I think we could all use to review the topical guide on this subject - Elder Packer has got many members doubting "they shall say that Christ delayeth his coming until the end of the earth." https://www.lds.org/scriptures/triple-index/jesus-christ-second-coming-of.t1?lang=eng&letter=j 1
Johnnie Cake Posted April 3, 2016 Author Posted April 3, 2016 By comparison the 7th day Adventist had over 1 million covert baptisms... Also 4 times the growth and now has an active membership of over 18 million
carbon dioxide Posted April 3, 2016 Posted April 3, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, Johnnie Cake said: By comparison the 7th day Adventist had over 1 million covert baptisms... Also 4 times the growth and now has an active membership of over 18 million Perhaps but for many churches, they do not require a lot of a convert. Not many churches/religions require as much of the members as the LDS Church does. From the Word of Wisdom, tithing, to church callings, to 3 hour on Sunday, our Church does require a lot of the members. Our church is not one where you just show up once a week to listen to a preacher for a hour and perhaps give a few bucks on a collection plate. It is easy to be an active member in another church that does not require that much commitment. I am sure we would grow like a weed if we took away the word of wisdom, tithing, church callings, and all that but would we be a better church? I think better to have fewer members than other churches but more devoted members than lots of members who are not committed to changing their lives putting effort into the gospel. Edited April 3, 2016 by carbon dioxide
rodheadlee Posted April 3, 2016 Posted April 3, 2016 4 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said: Really? it's a sign of end times? I don't believe that JST Matthew: 31 And again, this Gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world, for a witness unto all nations, and then shall the end come, or the destruction of the wicked; D&C 52: 10 Let them go two by two, and thus let them preach by the way in every congregation, baptizing by water, and the laying on of the hands by the water’s side. 11 For thus saith the Lord, I will cut my work short in righteousness, for the days come that I will send forth judgment unto victory. D&C 1: 12 Prepare ye, prepare ye for that which is to come, for the Lord is nigh; 13 And the anger of the Lord is kindled, and his sword is bathed in heaven, and it shall fall upon the inhabitants of the earth. 14 And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people; 15 For they have strayed from mine ordinances, and have broken mine everlasting covenant; 16 They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol, which waxeth fold and shall perish in Babylon, even Babylon the great, which shall fall. I can probably dig up some more but it'll take time.
rodheadlee Posted April 3, 2016 Posted April 3, 2016 4 hours ago, rpn said: I would think during the end times, there will be increasing people reaching out for God. The trick is always to find those who are among increasing struggles, increasing reticence to put one's faith out there for all to see, and less safety outside the home, and in the community at large. 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened. 23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
rodheadlee Posted April 3, 2016 Posted April 3, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said: How does this correlate with elder packers claim that Christ will not return in any of our lifetimes? Seems those ends times are in the waiting line Do you have that quote? I'd like to read it. Thanks. Could he have meant in his lifetime? Edited April 3, 2016 by rodheadlee
Robert F. Smith Posted April 3, 2016 Posted April 3, 2016 4 hours ago, CV75 said: Transparency and testimony can be one and the same. Brigham Young said, “Those who were acquainted with him [Joseph Smith] knew when the Spirit of revelation was upon him, for his countenance wore an expression peculiar to himself while under that influence. He preached by the Spirit of revelation, and taught in his council by it, and … at such times there was a peculiar clearness and transparency in his face.” (Journal of Discourses, 9:89) I thought that you were speaking of historical and administrative transparency.
cinepro Posted April 3, 2016 Posted April 3, 2016 (edited) 3 hours ago, carbon dioxide said: Perhaps but for many churches, they do not require a lot of a convert. Not many churches/religions require as much of the members as the LDS Church does. From the Word of Wisdom, tithing, to church callings, to 3 hour on Sunday, our Church does require a lot of the members. Our church is not one where you just show up once a week to listen to a preacher for a hour and perhaps give a few bucks on a collection plate. It is easy to be an active member in another church that does not require that much commitment. I am sure we would grow like a weed if we took away the word of wisdom, tithing, church callings, and all that but would we be a better church? I think better to have fewer members than other churches but more devoted members than lots of members who are not committed to changing their lives putting effort into the gospel. CFR that the Seventh Day Adventists don't "require a lot" of a convert. Heck, their health code isn't much different than the Word of Wisdom (as it is practiced today by LDS), and it's more restrictive when it comes to meat (following the Mosaic Law's "Unclean Foods" guidelines): Quote 10. Do you believe that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit and that you are to honor God by caring for your body, avoiding the use of that which is harmful, abstaining from all unclean foods, from the use, manufacture, or sale of alcoholic beverages, the use, manufacture, or sale of tobacco in any of its forms for human consumption, and from the misuse of, or trafficking in, narcotics or other drugs? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adventist_Baptismal_Vow Even LDS can be involved in the manufacture and sale of alcoholic beverages and tobacco. Edited April 3, 2016 by cinepro 4
The Nehor Posted April 3, 2016 Posted April 3, 2016 A dip does not signify the end of the world. It might but we have had dips like this before. While the Brethren are clear that things are getting worse it can get much much worse. Plus there is almost no persecution. I really expect it to move beyond cowards sniping on the internet before it gets bad. 1
carbon dioxide Posted April 3, 2016 Posted April 3, 2016 10 hours ago, cinepro said: CFR that the Seventh Day Adventists don't "require a lot" of a convert. Heck, their health code isn't much different than the Word of Wisdom (as it is practiced today by LDS), and it's more restrictive when it comes to meat (following the Mosaic Law's "Unclean Foods" guidelines): Even LDS can be involved in the manufacture and sale of alcoholic beverages and tobacco. My statement was in general terms. Not specific to any group like the SDA. Sure other churches have standards and requirements but just not nearly to the level that the LDS requires of its members with special emphasis on church callings. Also our church requires a higher level of faith. Not only does on need to have faith that the Bible is true, one has to have faith that the Book of Mormon, D&C ect are true. There are more potential breaking points for LDS members or more required for potential converts to accept or believe.
thesometimesaint Posted April 3, 2016 Posted April 3, 2016 16 hours ago, sunstoned said: Do you really think it really ever get that bad for the church? The Parable of the Ten Virgins is about Church members.
CV75 Posted April 3, 2016 Posted April 3, 2016 11 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: I thought that you were speaking of historical and administrative transparency. I was making a "funny" by giving an historical example of transparency in testimony... I should learn to use the emoticons better... 1
Johnnie Cake Posted April 3, 2016 Author Posted April 3, 2016 13 hours ago, carbon dioxide said: Perhaps but for many churches, they do not require a lot of a convert. Not many churches/religions require as much of the members as the LDS Church does. From the Word of Wisdom, tithing, to church callings, to 3 hour on Sunday, our Church does require a lot of the members. Our church is not one where you just show up once a week to listen to a preacher for a hour and perhaps give a few bucks on a collection plate. It is easy to be an active member in another church that does not require that much commitment. I am sure we would grow like a weed if we took away the word of wisdom, tithing, church callings, and all that but would we be a better church? I think better to have fewer members than other churches but more devoted members than lots of members who are not committed to changing their lives putting effort into the gospel. Actually 7th day Adventists have to make huge sacrifices, give up Saturday's, meat (which would be a non starter for me) they also tithe 10% and other peculiar practices unique to them 1
Johnnie Cake Posted April 3, 2016 Author Posted April 3, 2016 13 hours ago, rodheadlee said: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened. 23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Ok so you see slowing growth as a sign of the times...guess you better bulk up on your food storage and guns
Johnnie Cake Posted April 3, 2016 Author Posted April 3, 2016 (edited) 13 hours ago, rodheadlee said: Do you have that quote? I'd like to read it. Thanks. Could he have meant in his lifetime? The end is not near, senior LDS apostle Boyd K. Packer said Saturday. Today's youths can look forward to "getting married, having a family, seeing your children and grandchildren, maybe even great-grandchildren," Packer told more than 20,000 Mormons gathered in the giant LDS Conference Center in downtown Salt Lake City. News Sports Blogs Opinion Mon Edited April 3, 2016 by Johnnie Cake
Okrahomer Posted April 3, 2016 Posted April 3, 2016 (edited) 35 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: Actually 7th day Adventists have to make huge sacrifices, give up Saturday's, meat (which would be a non starter for me) they also tithe 10% and other peculiar practices unique to them I've known a few SDA over the years, and I always got the impression that vegetarianism was not an actual requirement for membership; although, it is encouraged. My friends led me to believe that keeping kosher with respect to meat consumption is actually more of a requirement. And there is this cited on Wikipedia: "An estimated 35% of Adventists practice vegetarianism or veganism, according to a 2002 worldwide survey of local church leaders.[39][40]" https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventh-day_Adventist_Church Edit to add this from the official SDA website: "Some SDA Members do eat clean meats including chicken, turkey, beef, fish, venison, lamb, and goat-among others. Unclean meats are seldom consumed by Seventh-day Adventists as members follow the health laws in Leviticus and Deuteronomy. The Adventist church as an organization however, promotes a vegetarian diet for optimal health." http://www.seventhdayadventistdiet.com Edited April 3, 2016 by Okrahomer
rodheadlee Posted April 3, 2016 Posted April 3, 2016 (edited) 56 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: Ok so you see slowing growth as a sign of the times...guess you better bulk up on your food storage and guns I have an ark, don't need guns, i plan on sharing. Edited April 3, 2016 by rodheadlee
rodheadlee Posted April 3, 2016 Posted April 3, 2016 (edited) 37 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: The end is not near, senior LDS apostle Boyd K. Packer said Saturday. Today's youths can look forward to "getting married, having a family, seeing your children and grandchildren, maybe even great-grandchildren," Packer told more than 20,000 Mormons gathered in the giant LDS Conference Center in downtown Salt Lake City. All of that can be done during the Millennium I'll search for the talk, thanks.. Edited April 3, 2016 by rodheadlee
carbon dioxide Posted April 3, 2016 Posted April 3, 2016 1 hour ago, rodheadlee said: I have an ark, don't need guns, i plan on sharing. The nice people who come to your ark you don't have to worry about. What about the looters. Within minutes you may have nothing to share.
Robert F. Smith Posted April 3, 2016 Posted April 3, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, Johnnie Cake said: Actually 7th day Adventists have to make huge sacrifices, give up Saturday's, meat (which would be a non starter for me) they also tithe 10% and other peculiar practices unique to them A very nice group. I have lived among them and attended some of their training on the Book of Revelation. They have a top quality school in Berrien Springs, Michigan -- Andrews Univ. Their Loma Linda Hospital in Southern California has always been state-of-the-art, and Hugh Nibley had his appendix taken out at Loma Linda when he was twelve years old. Edited April 3, 2016 by Robert F. Smith 2
Robert F. Smith Posted April 3, 2016 Posted April 3, 2016 (edited) 43 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: The end is not near, senior LDS apostle Boyd K. Packer said Saturday. Today's youths can look forward to "getting married, having a family, seeing your children and grandchildren, maybe even great-grandchildren," Packer told more than 20,000 Mormons gathered in the giant LDS Conference Center in downtown Salt Lake City. There is the Millennium, you know. Edited April 3, 2016 by Robert F. Smith
rodheadlee Posted April 3, 2016 Posted April 3, 2016 7 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said: The nice people who come to your ark you don't have to worry about. What about the looters. Within minutes you may have nothing to share. Luke 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. I'm not going to kill human beings to save my own life. My God has the power to raise me up from the dead. Also, there are not too many looters 100 miles or more offshore. 2
The Nehor Posted April 3, 2016 Posted April 3, 2016 13 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said: The nice people who come to your ark you don't have to worry about. What about the looters. Within minutes you may have nothing to share. If God wants to strike them down he can. He has not delegated that Priesthood responsibility to me. 1
PeterPear Posted April 4, 2016 Posted April 4, 2016 20 hours ago, JLHPROF said: That was to do with the birth of Christ, not the return. The end has always been a mystery. LDS.org says: time of coming is nigh at hand: D&C 1:12 D&C 34:7 ; D&C 35:15 ; D&C 43:17 ; D&C 49:6 ; D&C 104:59 ; D&C 106:4 ; D&C 110:16 ; D&C 133:17 and no man knows hour and day of the Lord’s coming: D&C 39:21 D&C 49:7 ; D&C 61:38 ; Matt. 24:36 In fact I think we could all use to review the topical guide on this subject - Elder Packer has got many members doubting "they shall say that Christ delayeth his coming until the end of the earth." https://www.lds.org/scriptures/triple-index/jesus-christ-second-coming-of.t1?lang=eng&letter=j So we're to take your words over President Packer's. Got it. Yub glub hub drub.
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