Slowest Church Growth Rate Since the Great Depression

[Scott Lloyd]

1 minute ago, rockpond said:

Neutralize:  render (something) ineffective or harmless by applying an opposite force or effect

Sorry, DNA arguments against Book of Mormon historicity have not been neutralized.  

It is ineffective and harmless if it has failed to discredit the Book of Mormon's historicity. And it has thus failed.

Quote

Perhaps you should read beyond just the Church's gospel topics essay.

Perhaps you should evaluate the arguments in light of the essay.

[canard78]

18 hours ago, Jeanne said:

Time will tell.  I do hope it is the former.  Church members have a right to know.

Actually, they don't have a "right" to know. 

The conditions of membership never included a commitment from the church to share its membership numbers. It's a private organisation and is under no obligation. 

[rockpond]

9 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

It is ineffective and harmless if it has failed to discredit the Book of Mormon's historicity. And it has thus failed.

That it hasn't for you or for the authors of the Church's essay is a subjective conclusion, not a matter of fact.

 

9 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Perhaps you should evaluate the arguments in light of the essay.

I have.

[consiglieri]

On ‎4‎/‎2‎/‎2016 at 4:53 PM, JLHPROF said:

No prophecy ever claimed an exponentially growing church.
 

 

 

This would be at variance with what the prophets have been telling us over the pulpit in General Conference the last several decades:

 

President Spencer W. Kimball—April 1976 General Conference

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I know it is true. I know it is divine. I know it is the little stone that was cut out of a mountain without hands. I know it will fill the earth as prophesied and commanded by the Savior Jesus Christ when, in his last moments on earth, he said to his eleven apostles, “Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature”—to every nation, kindred, tongue, and people. (See Mark 16:15.)

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1976/04/the-stone-cut-without-hands?lang=eng

 

 

President Gordon B. Hinkley—October 2007 General Conference

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The Church has become one large family scattered across the earth. There are now more than 13 million of us in 176 nations and territories. A marvelous and wonderful thing is coming to pass. The Lord is fulfilling His promise that His gospel shall be as the stone cut out of the mountain without hands which would roll forth and fill the whole earth, as Daniel saw in vision (see Daniel 2:31–45; D&C 65:2). A great miracle is taking place right before our eyes.

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2007/10/the-stone-cut-out-of-the-mountain?lang=eng

 

 

Elder L. Whitney Clayton—October 2011 General Conference

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In 1831, the Lord told Joseph that the keys of the kingdom of God had again been “committed unto man on the earth.” He said the “gospel [would] roll forth unto the ends of the earth, as the stone which is cut out of the mountain without hands …, until it has filled the whole earth,”³ just as Daniel had told Nebuchadnezzar.

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2011/10/the-time-shall-come?lang=eng

 

 

Elder D. Todd Christofferson—October 2015 General Conference

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When Daniel interpreted the dream of Babylonian King Nebuchadnezzar, making known to the king “what shall be in the latter days,”³¹ he declared that “the God of heaven [shall] set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all [other] kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.”³² The Church is that prophesied latter-day kingdom, not created by man but set up by the God of heaven and rolling forth as a stone “cut out of the mountain without hands” to fill the earth.³³

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2015/10/why-the-church?lang=eng

 

 

[JLHPROF]

6 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

 

 

This would be at variance with what the prophets have been telling us over the pulpit in General Conference the last several decades:

 

President Spencer W. Kimball—April 1976 General Conference

President Gordon B. Hinkley—October 2007 General Conference

Elder L. Whitney Clayton—October 2011 General Conference

Elder D. Todd Christofferson—October 2015 General Conference

 

BIG difference between proclaiming the Church will go worldwide and proclaiming the world will become more and more converted to the Church prior to Christ's return.

I don't see these statements as being at variance with mine at all.

[Scott Lloyd]

21 minutes ago, rockpond said:

That it hasn't for you or for the authors of the Church's essay is a subjective conclusion, not a matter of fact.

 

I have.

The arguments either prove Mormonism false or they don't. There is nothing subjective about that.

[rockpond]

1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said:

The arguments either prove Mormonism false or they don't. There is nothing subjective about that.

Ahhh... if you want to boil it down to that, then we agree:  The DNA arguments do not prove Mormonism false.

[Scott Lloyd]

38 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

 

 

This would be at variance with what the prophets have been telling us over the pulpit in General Conference the last several decades:

 

President Spencer W. Kimball—April 1976 General Conference

 

President Gordon B. Hinkley—October 2007 General Conference

 

Elder L. Whitney Clayton—October 2011 General Conference

 

Elder D. Todd Christofferson—October 2015 General Conference

 

The Kingdom of God will eventually consume other kingdoms and fill the whole earth -- sometime after the Second Coming of Christ. Meanwhile, it will be just as Nephi foresaw in vision: the church of the Lamb of God would be over the face of  all the earth but its numbers would be few.

Edited April 5, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[consiglieri]

2 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

BIG difference between proclaiming the Church will go worldwide and proclaiming the world will become more and more converted to the Church prior to Christ's return.

I don't see these statements as being at variance with mine at all.

I respect your right to interpret the statements in that manner, but having lived through it, I would tend to see such an interpretation as revisionist history.

The message for the last several decades has been continued growth of the Church until it "fills" the world--not just that the church will appear in some small way throughout the world.

It is only now that growth rates are fast dropping and the original vision seems unlikely to be fulfilled that revisionist history must step in to reinterpret the former predictions.

[consiglieri]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

The Kingdom of God will eventually consume other kingdoms and fill the whole earth -- sometime after the Second Coming of Christ. Meanwhile, it will be just as Nephi foresaw in vision: the church of the Lamb of God would be over the face of  all the earth but its numbers would be few.

See: Revisionist History.

[Jeanne]

2 hours ago, canard78 said:

Actually, they don't have a "right" to know. 

The conditions of membership never included a commitment from the church to share its membership numbers. It's a private organisation and is under no obligation. 

When families are making sacrifices to help their missionary children and contributing dollars to the "organization" they should know everything..shouldn't need any written commitment.  It should be already obligated to let the members who are the organization know whatever is happening in the church.

[JLHPROF]

9 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

I respect your right to interpret the statements in that manner, but having lived through it, I would tend to see such an interpretation as revisionist history.

The message for the last several decades has been continued growth of the Church until it "fills" the world--not just that the church will appear in some small way throughout the world.

It is only now that growth rates are fast dropping and the original vision seems unlikely to be fulfilled that revisionist history must step in to reinterpret the former predictions.

It may well be revisionist history.
But then isn't that always the way of prophecies?  Many are not understood correctly upon their establishment.

[rockpond]

7 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

It may well be revisionist history.
But then isn't that always the way of prophecies?  Many are not understood correctly upon their establishment.

True.

In the case of membership numbers there seems to be an even easier formula:  increasing numbers = success of the message, decreasing numbers = Satan's influence, both = fulfillment of prophecy.

[Scott Lloyd]

34 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

See: Revisionist History.

Interesting that thinking and analysis that challenges consig's hardened but ill-considered understanding is dismissed as "revisionist history."

[Scott Lloyd]

37 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

I respect your right to interpret the statements in that manner, but having lived through it, I would tend to see such an interpretation as revisionist history.

The message for the last several decades has been continued growth of the Church until it "fills" the world--not just that the church will appear in some small way throughout the world.

It is only now that growth rates are fast dropping and the original vision seems unlikely to be fulfilled that revisionist history must step in to reinterpret the former predictions.

It will "fill the world" -- after the Savior has come to reign personally on the earth.

[Scott Lloyd]

20 minutes ago, rockpond said:

True.

In the case of membership numbers there seems to be an even easier formula:  increasing numbers = success of the message, decreasing numbers = Satan's influence, both = fulfillment of prophecy.

Membership numbers aren't decreasing.

And I notice you haven't bothered to deal with 1 Nephi 14:12 and how precisely the prophecy fits the circumstances of today.

You seem genuinely disappointed and cyncial, if not resentful, about that precision. I'm not sure why.

 

Quote

 

11 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the whore of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people.

 12 And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore who sat upon many waters; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon all the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw.

 13 And it came to pass that I beheld that the great mother of abominations did gather together multitudes upon the face of all the earth, among all the nations of the Gentiles, to fight against the Lamb of God.

 14 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld the power of the Lamb of God, that it descended upon the saints of the church of the Lamb, and upon the covenant people of the Lord, who were scattered upon all the face of the earth; and they were armed with righteousness and with the power of God in great glory.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 5, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[rockpond]

1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Membership numbers aren't decreasing.

And I notice you haven't bothered to deal with 1 Nephi 14:12 and how precisely the prophecy fits the circumstances of today.

You seem genuinely disappointed and resentful about that precision. I'm not sure why.

 

Sorry for the short-hand:  rate of growth not real numbers.

1 Nephi 14 does fit the circumstances of today.  How have I not dealt with that?

And I am not disappointed or resentful.  You seem to be reading a lot into my comments.  Try just sticking to what I've written rather than projecting other biases on me.

 

[omni]

3 hours ago, consiglieri said:

 

 

This would be at variance with what the prophets have been telling us over the pulpit in General Conference the last several decades:

 

President Spencer W. Kimball—April 1976 General Conference

 

President Gordon B. Hinkley—October 2007 General Conference

 

Elder L. Whitney Clayton—October 2011 General Conference

 

Elder D. Todd Christofferson—October 2015 General Conference

 

First rule of prophecy: cover all your bases.

[thesometimesaint]

50 minutes ago, rockpond said:

True.

In the case of membership numbers there seems to be an even easier formula:  increasing numbers = success of the message, decreasing numbers = Satan's influence, both = fulfillment of prophecy.

The prophecy is being fulfilled.SEE http://www.ldsliving.com/The-LDS-Church-in-Mongolia/s/71398

[why me]

On 3.4.2016 at 4:55 AM, Robert F. Smith said:

Yes, secularism is powerful, but testimony is still primary.  Nearly all LDS conversions are based on missionary testimonies confirmed by the Holy Spirit.  In other words, they are not based on doctrinal, theological, or historical considerations -- which few people are capable of addressing anyhow.  A good deal of this missionary activity now takes place online (via skype), which does represent a major shift.  Another shift is away from burned over missionary areas, such as Europe, to far more fertile fields, such as Africa -- where the Church is growing rapidly.  Thus, a temporary slice of worldwide conversion rates tells us little about what is actually going on in specific areas, nor does it reflect the oscillatory growth rates over time.

Transparency is good, but has nothing to do with conversions.

This is true. I think that the main problem are the conversions that occur without such a testimony. I think that this may happen a lot these days. I also think that the spirit does have difficulties when a person's heart has been hardened. And I think that many people in europe have hardened their hearts when it comes to faith or changing faiths. However, on the other hand, in europe there is a much more islamist tendency where faith is extremely important and such islamists are having a very strong effect within various muslim communities in  europe. I am not speaking about extremism but of orthodoxy. And I think that this is a direct reaction against western secularism. Hopefully, the christian faith and its values will become more important for europeans and for other christians in the world.

http://www.politico.eu/article/brussels-attacks-terrorism-europe-muslims-brussels-attacks-airport-metro/

And we can see this in many parts of the world also.

[stemelbow]

17 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

BIG difference between proclaiming the Church will go worldwide and proclaiming the world will become more and more converted to the Church prior to Christ's return.

I don't see these statements as being at variance with mine at all.

I would say the whole imagery of a stone rolling forth gaining strength is exponential growth.  When the stone slows down, it should cause concern, I would think.  Instead we get a lot of "All is well in Zion".  I'm not saying panic is in order, but some amount of, "well it appears we are losing effectiveness in our message".  I hear different things being attempted in different a places of the world, which may signify some acknowledgment, but I'm not sure.  It'd be nice for the obvious to be acknowledged so we all feel we can move forward.

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, why me said:

This is true. I think that the main problem are the conversions that occur without such a testimony. I think that this may happen a lot these days. I also think that the spirit does have difficulties when a person's heart has been hardened. And I think that many people in europe have hardened their hearts when it comes to faith or changing faiths. However, on the other hand, in europe there is a much more islamist tendency where faith is extremely important and such islamists are having a very strong effect within various muslim communities in  europe. I am not speaking about extremism but of orthodoxy. And I think that this is a direct reaction against western secularism. Hopefully, the christian faith and its values will become more important for europeans and for other christians in the world.

http://www.politico.eu/article/brussels-attacks-terrorism-europe-muslims-brussels-attacks-airport-metro/

And we can see this in many parts of the world also.

This turn to orthodoxy also shows itself strongly in Judaism and in Hinduism, but not so much in Christianity -- except in the Third World.  This is also accompanied by a turn to the political and cultural Right in the same parts of the world.  Secularism remains very popular in the West, but secularists are not having babies, and they will eventually be overtaken in population by orthodox religionists of all kinds.  We already see this among Jews in America, where secular Jews (including members of liberal synagogues) are dying out and assimilating, while the orthodox are continuing to have large families.

[JLHPROF]

34 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I would say the whole imagery of a stone rolling forth gaining strength is exponential growth.  When the stone slows down, it should cause concern, I would think.  Instead we get a lot of "All is well in Zion".  I'm not saying panic is in order, but some amount of, "well it appears we are losing effectiveness in our message".  I hear different things being attempted in different a places of the world, which may signify some acknowledgment, but I'm not sure.  It'd be nice for the obvious to be acknowledged so we all feel we can move forward.

I think there is a saturation point.  A point where those who are willing to hear the gospel will have heard it, and pretty much everyone else has no interest.
At some point the fishers of men will become hunters of men.

[stemelbow]

4 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I think there is a saturation point.  A point where those who are willing to hear the gospel will have heard it, and pretty much everyone else has no interest.
At some point the fishers of men will become hunters of men.

So we reached .2 percent of the world, and let's be honest that's a great exaggeration since many of that number don't consider themselves to be LDS, and we've saturated?  I think it far more likely that our messaging and our ineffective methods are the problem.  We aren't reaching people because we aren't adapting at this point. 

[JLHPROF]

1 minute ago, stemelbow said:

So we reached .2 percent of the world, and let's be honest that's a great exaggeration since many of that number don't consider themselves to be LDS, and we've saturated?  I think it far more likely that our messaging and our ineffective methods are the problem.  We aren't reaching people because we aren't adapting at this point. 

Adapting our message meaning what exactly?

As far as I'm concerned I hope our message never becomes more "inclusive" to gain converts at the expense of doctrine or principles.  If it did we'd only be selling them lies anyway.