So what's with the refugees?

[Meadowchik]

10 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

There are currently around 33,000 homeless veterans that the country is not taking care of or housing, yet the government wants to bring in refugees. Shouldn't the government focus on helping their own first? We have a lot of veterans who are seriously struggling and a homeless problem. Since moving to Utah I see people on the streets around Provo and Orem begging for money all the time. Never saw that in Massachusetts once in my life, and I see it all the time in Utah County.

The government and state can do both. Utah has a very good homeless program and refugee program.

[BlueDreams]

16 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

There are currently around 33,000 homeless veterans that the country is not taking care of or housing, yet the government wants to bring in refugees. Shouldn't the government focus on helping their own first? We have a lot of veterans who are seriously struggling and a homeless problem. Since moving to Utah I see people on the streets around Provo and Orem begging for money all the time. Never saw that in Massachusetts once in my life, and I see it all the time in Utah County.

Utah already does. They've dropped their chronically homeless rate by 91% by housing them (see here, here, and here). The homeless people you see are likely not to stay homeless for long in UT.  And if you pay attention to the faces, you'll notice that they transition from year to year (and sometime month to month). But they often congregate in same areas that they know they're more likely to receive handouts or something from panhandling (grocery stores, intersections near the temple, etc).

And as meadowchik pointed out, we can easily do both.

With luv,

BD

[Rain]

16 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

There are currently around 33,000 homeless veterans that the country is not taking care of or housing, yet the government wants to bring in refugees. Shouldn't the government focus on helping their own first? We have a lot of veterans who are seriously struggling and a homeless problem. Since moving to Utah I see people on the streets around Provo and Orem begging for money all the time. Never saw that in Massachusetts once in my life, and I see it all the time in Utah County.

My brother is one of those that is off and on homeless.  What you may "see" is not the whole picture.  

[rodheadlee]

Serious question. What are acceptable news sources? I like to read the comments after the articles, so I really don't like CNN. Any help you can give me will be fine.

[bcuzbcuz]

17 hours ago, mtomm said:

How come those posting the news links refuse to accept your reality? How come they cannot graciously acknowledge that perhaps your first hand experience trumps their second hand knowledge?  It's like when a non-member or less active members explain the beliefs of the LDS Church to members on this forum.

First off, my "gentler" story doesn't sell newspapers or gain internet "hits". A number of us who work as volunteers for teaching refugees were interviewed by a local newspaper, but the story didn't make it to print.

Secondly, the political swing to the right in Sweden, where the neo-nazis, according to the most recent poll, hold 20% of potential voters, influences which and what news gets reported. Rasism is on the rise in Sweden. There exists already a housing shortage in most cities and several housing units, designated for refugees have been burnt to the ground. 

Stockholm is still a city where my wife and I can walk around after midnight without fear of being robbed or attacked. It will probably not stay this way forever. Recently, a gang of men gathered at the center of town and attacked anyone who looked like a foreigner. I look Swedish so would probably have been ignored, but my wife definitely does not look Swedish so she fears for her safety when she sees a group of Swedish men.

 

 

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

My brother is one of those that is off and on homeless.  What you may "see" is not the whole picture.  

My brother was homeless for a short stint until he was picked up for intoxication and an old arrest warrant.  He's now in jail, once again.  Which is much better than the streets sometimes.  He had his back pack stolen, luckily I have the rest of his things, like photos etc.  

I know that a lot of homeless just need their next fix.  And it's hard to give them money, I'd rather buy them a meal, give them some clean socks or coats, sleeping bag whatever.  But when I recently helped my brother get on his feet, which included adding to some cash he'd gotten from hocking some things, to help him get a new cell phone.  He'd lost his old one when he passed out from a previous binge, he took the rest of the cash and bought a bottle of whisky.  That fast!  I dropped him off to speak to a judge, he was going to go to Walmart after and get on a bus to stay at a friends house.  Next thing I know he's walking the streets again and drunk.  But sorry to get off topic.

Edited March 31, 2016 by Tacenda

[BlueDreams]

1 hour ago, rodheadlee said:

Serious question. What are acceptable news sources? I like to read the comments after the articles, so I really don't like CNN. Any help you can give me will be fine.

I really like the NYTimes. The comment sections usually have better commentary than most as a bonus. But with hot-button issues I try to find a few sources. Sometimes you have to research out facts to get a fuller story.....my general rule if something seems to clear cut and dry with its facts pointing in one direction...it probably is.

 

With luv,

BD

[rodheadlee]

1 hour ago, BlueDreams said:

I really like the NYTimes. The comment sections usually have better commentary than most as a bonus. But with hot-button issues I try to find a few sources. Sometimes you have to research out facts to get a fuller story.....my general rule if something seems to clear cut and dry with its facts pointing in one direction...it probably is.

 

With luv,

BD

Thanks. I try to get a view from the Left, Right and Center. Sometimes though they don't even report on the same subject, 

[bcuzbcuz]

5 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

Serious question. What are acceptable news sources? I like to read the comments after the articles, so I really don't like CNN. Any help you can give me will be fine.

A good question. I use BBC and CBC and Aljazeera. There are a number of European news sources that have pages in English. They often declare openly their slant on news, whether Liberal, Left or conservative. Many of the ultra right claim to be neutral but are far from it.

[rodheadlee]

1 hour ago, bcuzbcuz said:

A good question. I use BBC and CBC and Aljazeera. There are a number of European news sources that have pages in English. They often declare openly their slant on news, whether Liberal, Left or conservative. Many of the ultra right claim to be neutral but are far from it.

Thanks!

[saemo]

On March 30, 2016 at 3:50 PM, VideoGameJunkie said:

There are currently around 33,000 homeless veterans that the country is not taking care of or housing, yet the government wants to bring in refugees. Shouldn't the government focus on helping their own first? We have a lot of veterans who are seriously struggling and a homeless problem. Since moving to Utah I see people on the streets around Provo and Orem begging for money all the time. Never saw that in Massachusetts once in my life, and I see it all the time in Utah County.

Not all who beg are homeless.

While UT has been doing better in ending chronic homelessness, the number of people who are unable to feed themselves and their dependants is rising. Utah county has a 13% poverty rate, one of the highest in the state. Depending on where you lived in Mass. the poverty rate may have been much, much, lower  

 

Edited April 1, 2016 by saemo

[VideoGameJunkie]

52 minutes ago, saemo said:

Not all who beg are homeless.

While UT has been doing better in ending chronic homelessness, the number of people who are unable to feed themselves and their dependants is rising. Utah county has a 13% poverty rate, one of the highest in the state. Depending on where you lived in Mass. the poverty rate may have been much, much, lower  

 

I'll admit I lived in a wealthy County and town in Massachusetts. 

[thesometimesaint]

I live in one of the poorest counties in California.

[Meadowchik]

19 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

I really like the NYTimes. The comment sections usually have better commentary than most as a bonus. But with hot-button issues I try to find a few sources. Sometimes you have to research out facts to get a fuller story.....my general rule if something seems to clear cut and dry with its facts pointing in one direction...it probably is.

 

With luv,

BD

True.

I lived in Utah when Elisabeth Smart was taken and also when she was found, my friend and I put up flyers and I was able to volunteer search.  But you can imagine all the news we saw on it as a national news story in our own state. I remember one evening news show on CNN where someone mentioned the statement from the Sheriff that day, which I had watched myself on a local channel.  The recap was inaccurate.  It was kind of a paradigm shift to see with my own eyes.  Recently my husband saw a report on American news translations, where it showed a recording aired on American news of far right French Nationalist Marine Le Pen speak, and then showed the English translation that went along with the emission.  It was shocking because this particular translation said the opposite of what the actually said, it turning a clear positive into a negative answer.

[VideoGameJunkie]

Stories like these are why I don't want more young male refugees in this country. http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/04/01/fun-cruise-students-ended-tragedy-migrants-board-gang-raped/

Five men, including two believed to be accessories to murder, have been arrested on suspicion of gang raping a girl on-board a special, high school kids-only pleasure cruise in Sweden.

Two of the suspected rapists laugh and joke about how they plan to ‘f about on the cruAftonblade

Four men aged between 18 and 19 were arrested when the luxury MS Galaxy landed after its cruise to Finland on Wednesday, with a fifth arrested yesterday. They are all accused of gang-raping an unidentified woman, and face charges of aggravated rape.

The prosecutor has given no more detail about the crime or the victim, and was initially even reluctant to disclose that it was a woman who had been raped.

Although the politically-correct Swedish police have gone to their usual lengths to obscure the identities and nationalities of the suspected perpetrators, a mistake by Sweden’s largest newspaper has revealed the men to be migrants.

A film crew from newspaper Aftonbladet interviewed a number of students boarding the ship as it prepared to sail earlier this week for a feature on the cruise.

Of the 1,700 young people who sailed they by chance ended up interviewing two of the attackers.

The non-Western young men told the camera of their plan to have a good time while at sea, remarking they wanted to “Just **** about”. He remarked “because we are students”, they wanted to “actually go ****ing wild”, reports Sweden’s Aftonbladet.

The footage was released by the paper accidentally to their website and later taken down, but a screenshot was preserved of the men, censored by Friatider to comply with Swedish law.

In a further development, it has been revealed one of the men has a previous conviction and two of the men arrested for the gang-rape are suspects in a separate criminal case, a high-profile murder in Stockholm dating back to November 2015. Although the men are suspected of accessory to murder and were arrested by police, they were later released pending trial and allowed to potentially violently offend again.

None of those men arrested were born in Sweden. They deny all charges of aggravated rape.

[bcuzbcuz]

10 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

Stories like these are why I don't want more young male refugees in this country. http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/04/01/fun-cruise-students-ended-tragedy-migrants-board-gang-raped/

Five men, including two believed to be accessories to murder, have been arrested on suspicion of gang raping a girl on-board a special, high school kids-only pleasure cruise in Sweden.

Two of the suspected rapists laugh and joke about how they plan to ‘f about on the cruAftonblade

Four men aged between 18 and 19 were arrested when the luxury MS Galaxy landed after its cruise to Finland on Wednesday, with a fifth arrested yesterday. They are all accused of gang-raping an unidentified woman, and face charges of aggravated rape.

The prosecutor has given no more detail about the crime or the victim, and was initially even reluctant to disclose that it was a woman who had been raped.

Although the politically-correct Swedish police have gone to their usual lengths to obscure the identities and nationalities of the suspected perpetrators, a mistake by Sweden’s largest newspaper has revealed the men to be migrants.

A film crew from newspaper Aftonbladet interviewed a number of students boarding the ship as it prepared to sail earlier this week for a feature on the cruise.

Of the 1,700 young people who sailed they by chance ended up interviewing two of the attackers.

The non-Western young men told the camera of their plan to have a good time while at sea, remarking they wanted to “Just **** about”. He remarked “because we are students”, they wanted to “actually go ****ing wild”, reports Sweden’s Aftonbladet.

The footage was released by the paper accidentally to their website and later taken down, but a screenshot was preserved of the men, censored by Friatider to comply with Swedish law.

In a further development, it has been revealed one of the men has a previous conviction and two of the men arrested for the gang-rape are suspects in a separate criminal case, a high-profile murder in Stockholm dating back to November 2015. Although the men are suspected of accessory to murder and were arrested by police, they were later released pending trial and allowed to potentially violently offend again.

None of those men arrested were born in Sweden. They deny all charges of aggravated rape.

You obviously don't speak or read Swedish. I am fluent in Swedish and have taught Swedish in Swedish schools for 16 years. I currently teach Swedish to newly arrived refugees.

The article you quote is misinformed and highly prejudicial. Their concluding statements "they were later released pending trial and allowed to potentially offend again", displays a total lack of understanding of how the process of justice proceeds. Furthermore it presumes to be able to predict future behaviour, "to potentially offend again". That statement could be said about anyone and therefore is a generalization that is false.

Current Swedish language  and English usage has been greatly influenced by movies. When I first moved here,  British English was the rule. Swedes used British expressions and grammar and pronunciation. Nowadays, most youth have American accents and use American expressions that they have picked up from films. The "F" word is very common in daily language and usage. Swedes under the age of 20 commonly use expressions of f...ing this and f...ing that without any intention of the word meaning copulation. Consider it like the use of the word "crap" in Utah. The word seldom refers to bowel movements. 

The article repeatedly refers to the accused as "migrants", non-western, and you headline your post with "young, male refugees". The cruise, from Stockholm to Finland, was booked as a "Studentskiva", what would be called a graduation party in the US. The trip is reserved to students who have completed a two or three additional years of schooling program., following the obligatory 9 years of basic schooling. Students only qualify for these additional years if they have appropriate grades in 13 basic school courses, including English, Swedish and Maths. During these final 3 years, many subjects are dropped entirely. Studies are focused on becoming a junior engineer, a pre-med qualification, drafting, sciences, etc. 

The swedish news services have stated the grad students were from central Sweden. No refugee, nor even recently arrived immigrant could possibly qualify to take a Swedish "studenten".

And finally, according to todays Aftonbladet, a Stockholm newspaper, issued the following, "Senare på fredagskvällen släpptes två av de misstänkta männen på fri fot, uppger DN. Enligt tidningen ska misstankarna mot dem vara avskrivna."

It says "Later on Friday evening two of the suspects were released (på fri fot), according to DN (another Stockholm newspaper), According to the newspaper all suspicions against them were written off."

So despite your newspaper stating that the politically-correct police had gone to their typical blah, blah, blah. 

You need to find better sources for your biases.

[carbon dioxide]

13 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

Stories like these are why I don't want more young male refugees in this country. http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/04/01/fun-cruise-students-ended-tragedy-migrants-board-gang-raped/

Sweden does have problems that seem to be growing.  60 minutes did a piece on the migrants that are going there. 

 

 

We must be careful not to brand all refugees and migrants as bad.  Perhaps most are good, honest people.  However the government needs to do a lot more to get these bad apples out of the country or it will turn the population against the good people as well.    The advantage we have in the US is that we can carry guns.  The poor Europeans are more defenseless.  There was a case recently where a woman in I believe Denmark fended off a rape by a migrant using pepper spray.  They did not find the migrant but the wonderful government decided to fine the woman for possessing pepper spray.  The government allows these people to come in, does not allow the citizens to defend themselves, and if they do defend themselves, they punish them.

[bcuzbcuz]

6 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

Sweden does have problems that seem to be growing.  60 minutes did a piece on the migrants that are going there. 

 

  The advantage we have in the US is that we can carry guns.  The poor Europeans are more defenseless.  There was a case recently where a woman in I believe Denmark fended off a rape by a migrant using pepper spray.  They did not find the migrant but the wonderful government decided to fine the woman for possessing pepper spray.  The government allows these people to come in, does not allow the citizens to defend themselves, and if they do defend themselves, they punish them.

I can't believe how many people on this site buy into the racist, hateful, misinformed information about the situation in Europe. 

That you believe that you're safer in the US because you can carry guns is laughable. My wife and I, after having a night out on the town, walked for twenty minutes through our downtown to get to our bus depot. Can you, in your town in the US, walk freely around town at two in the morning? Serious question.

Here in Sweden we'd rather be actually safe than having to think that procuring a weapon would make us "feel" safe.

[jana at jade house]

Here am I. An American from Pilgrim stock, daughter and sister ofmen who served and served the country long and honorably.  I live in the EU and still flymy Stars and Stripes on flag holidays.   I live in a little village where one in eight residents are refugees.  I wander around in the dark without fear.  Except from drunk young people who set off illegal fireworks and threaten my thatched roof. 

Hubby and I will be traveling and living in the States this summer.  I actually am far more fearful of travelling alone in the root in tootin gun shooting West than I am of traveling any where in the EU.   

The people here are not poor defenseless brainless oafs.   The scars from the World Wars and from other more internal conflicts are omnipresent.  The stories of WWII tragedies are still being written.  This part of the world fought hard to establish non aggressive non combative methods of conflict resolution.  Never again means never again. Thus peace has been generally observed in the EU for nearly a century.

No one here wants to be drug into a warzone caused by criminal and pseudo Moslems.  Many of us have been active in refugee support groups well before this flood started.  To help the poor and afflicted is not unusual here.  

The problem is in my locality is mostly financial.  The same folks that reduced financial support for refugee camps closer to the war zones are hardly able to loosen the purse strings when the people are on the door step.  And we have a population that is still reeling from cheats and liars who blew up the economy.  That recovery has been slow.

I personally know women who live in Germany who want to carry pepperspray.   They were hypervigilant fearful people before the influx.  I refuse to become trapped by fear.  I refuse to jump at every shadow.   I refuse to take any negative news bite at face value.  My sky is not falling.

After all, I am more endagangered by the horrible drivers on the highway than anyone who lives in my village.

[bcuzbcuz]

4 hours ago, jana at jade house said:

Here am I. An American from Pilgrim stock, daughter and sister ofmen who served and served the country long and honorably.  I live in the EU and still flymy Stars and Stripes on flag holidays.   I live in a little village where one in eight residents are refugees.  I wander around in the dark without fear.  Except from drunk young people who set off illegal fireworks and threaten my thatched roof. 

Hubby and I will be traveling and living in the States this summer.  I actually am far more fearful of travelling alone in the root in tootin gun shooting West than I am of traveling any where in the EU.   

The people here are not poor defenseless brainless oafs.   The scars from the World Wars and from other more internal conflicts are omnipresent.  The stories of WWII tragedies are still being written.  This part of the world fought hard to establish non aggressive non combative methods of conflict resolution.  Never again means never again. Thus peace has been generally observed in the EU for nearly a century.

No one here wants to be drug into a warzone caused by criminal and pseudo Moslems.  Many of us have been active in refugee support groups well before this flood started.  To help the poor and afflicted is not unusual here.  

The problem is in my locality is mostly financial.  The same folks that reduced financial support for refugee camps closer to the war zones are hardly able to loosen the purse strings when the people are on the door step.  And we have a population that is still reeling from cheats and liars who blew up the economy.  That recovery has been slow.

I personally know women who live in Germany who want to carry pepperspray.   They were hypervigilant fearful people before the influx.  I refuse to become trapped by fear.  I refuse to jump at every shadow.   I refuse to take any negative news bite at face value.  My sky is not falling.

After all, I am more endagangered by the horrible drivers on the highway than anyone who lives in my village.

Thank you. Excellent post.

While I am deeply troubled by the rise in nationalism and neo-nazism, by rasist attitudes that somehow become permissable during times of stress, my family and I refuse to give in to the fear and selfishness that would have us turn our backs on those fleeing  a monstrous war and its effects.

[carbon dioxide]

19 hours ago, bcuzbcuz said:

I can't believe how many people on this site buy into the racist, hateful, misinformed information about the situation in Europe. 

That you believe that you're safer in the US because you can carry guns is laughable. My wife and I, after having a night out on the town, walked for twenty minutes through our downtown to get to our bus depot. Can you, in your town in the US, walk freely around town at two in the morning? Serious question.

Here in Sweden we'd rather be actually safe than having to think that procuring a weapon would make us "feel" safe.

First, I never said Europe is filled with rape and violence.  Most of the refugees and migrants are not causing big problems obviously otherwise the US government would be placing travel warnings to tourists who go there.   Second, what I have read about things that go on in Europe have originated from European news sources.  I have also watched a number of youtube videos from Europe that are pretty clear that the problems that do exist there are real.  Third, I can walk freely around town at two in the morning in my town without worrying.  I don't carry a gun BUT if a situation was to change in my town that required me to carry a gun, I could do so.  A number of European nations do not grant that option to their people.  I am for the Europeans to be set free and be allowed to protect themselves if they feel the need.  In Denmark, they restrict pepper spray. 

"Girl faces fine for possessing pepper spray in Denmark, after using spray to protect against sexual assault" https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2016/01/28/girl-faces-fine-for-possessing-pepper-spray-in-denmark-after-using-spray-to-protect-against-sexual-assault/

Of course Finland is on the ball by suggesting that women use "the Force" to prevent an attack as this government issued video shows

 

[Calm]

Not government issued, it was a TV broadcasting company.

How much effort do you put into checking sources?  Serious question.

[Calm]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

Not government issued, it was a TV broadcasting company.

How much effort do you put into checking sources?  Serious question.

can't edit...company is apparently YLE or Yle

I haven't found yet if it was supposed to be satire, but I expect it was.

[Calm]

Not satire, but then not actually telling women to "use the force" either.  That is what critics of the video are comparing it to.

Over the years, I have heard a huge variety of advice from reputable sources making claims of best approaches based on studies...from being completely passive to complete resistance even in the face of guns, etc.  I cannot watch the video, so don't know where on the spectrum it actually falls.

[bcuzbcuz]

15 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

First, I never said Europe is filled with rape and violence.  Most of the refugees and migrants are not causing big problems obviously otherwise the US government would be placing travel warnings to tourists who go there.   Second, what I have read about things that go on in Europe have originated from European news sources.  I have also watched a number of youtube videos from Europe that are pretty clear that the problems that do exist there are real.  Third, I can walk freely around town at two in the morning in my town without worrying.  I don't carry a gun BUT if a situation was to change in my town that required me to carry a gun, I could do so.  A number of European nations do not grant that option to their people.  I am for the Europeans to be set free and be allowed to protect themselves if they feel the need.  In Denmark, they restrict pepper spray. 

"Girl faces fine for possessing pepper spray in Denmark, after using spray to protect against sexual assault" https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2016/01/28/girl-faces-fine-for-possessing-pepper-spray-in-denmark-after-using-spray-to-protect-against-sexual-assault/

Of course Finland is on the ball by suggesting that women use "the Force" to prevent an attack as this government issued video shows

 

I'm more than happy with our European laws....most countries, though not all, that forbid so called weapons of defense. It is illegal in Sweden to carry a knife, a stun gun, pepper spray or a gun for "defense", simply because those weapons can be used as attack weapons. Of course, of these, the most deadly, are guns.

I remember reading from an American newspaper where a man thought he was threatened by a number of black youth. He opened fire, killing one of the young men. Those who witnessed the incident told their story in trial and the man was convicted of murder. Of course, the young man who he killed was unable to testify. If he had been able to testify he would have told his side of the story that he ended up dead because he played his music too loud.

Another story with a similar outcome. One man with a gun, who felt threatened by a youth, where the young man ended up dead. The rest of the story is unknown because the youth will never be able to tell his side of the story. In other words, the person who is alive, is right; the dead person is wrong.

I'd rather live in a country, whether a threat is real or imagined, where both sides of the story can be told