mtomm Posted March 29, 2016 Posted March 29, 2016 I'm amazed the number of things that members believe a bishop should be involved in that really are none of his business. You shouldn't feel obligated at all to be involved in this council. 4
Okrahomer Posted March 29, 2016 Posted March 29, 2016 2 hours ago, ksfisher said: I've never heard of anything like this. This sounds like a civil disput to me and as far as I'm aware being involved in a civil dispute, even between church members, is not grounds for a disciplinary council. I would have to go and read to appropriate section of handbook 1 to know for sure though. There was the Elizabeth Marsh and Lucinda Harris milk strippings episode.
ksfisher Posted March 29, 2016 Posted March 29, 2016 9 minutes ago, Okrahomer said: There was the Elizabeth Marsh and Lucinda Harris milk strippings episode. I was thinking about more modern times.
Okrahomer Posted March 29, 2016 Posted March 29, 2016 1 minute ago, ksfisher said: I was thinking about more modern times. Yes, you're right of course...and I agree.
Meadowchik Posted March 29, 2016 Author Posted March 29, 2016 2 hours ago, Calm said: Meadowchik said elsewhere if I recall correctly that that law heavily favours the tenant in France and currently they are unable to evict even though rent is unpaid, etc. Here: Yup. Yet they've unofficially informed us that they're leaving ASAP, which sounds too good to be true. We'll see.
Meadowchik Posted March 29, 2016 Author Posted March 29, 2016 2 hours ago, mtomm said: I'm amazed the number of things that members believe a bishop should be involved in that really are none of his business. You shouldn't feel obligated at all to be involved in this council. Bishop says the neighbour wants "his justice." It also seems a number of people in our ward and their previous ward (including my husband and our bishop) also want the neighbour to have "his justice." I'm uncomfortable with the idea of what they want to happen, ie., showing the neighbour his own faults in unanimous clarity. I feel like he is too unstable to respond well and that it could back him into a corner even further. The other day neighbour came out to check the mail and walked past me with an 18 inch piece of metal in one hand. His body language seemed to scream that he was looking for a reason to fight. A couple months ago after they met with a legal counsel--where he likely learned his assets could be eventually seized for nonpayment--he and his wife made their 2be car disappear. They don't keep it here anymore. In short, he seems frightened, paranoid, hostile, and menacing. I don't like the idea of him living next door to us while being unstable and him getting backed into a corner at a council. 1
Meadowchik Posted March 29, 2016 Author Posted March 29, 2016 Thanks everybody for the advice and perspectives. It is all appreciated.
Duncan Posted March 29, 2016 Posted March 29, 2016 2 hours ago, halconero said: Now a days the counsel from the Church HQ (and I think it's wise counsel) would be to let the courts (civil or criminal) render a decision regarding the matter for fraud or damages, and then base disciplinary counsels off of the information rendered there. I agree and it may have gone to that but i don't know the outcome. I think he was lynched actually!! either that or he got a haircut! I used to attend Church with him up until a few years ago, he is a slick, greasy, smooth operator. I can see it both ways, he messed over everyone on purpose or he is so arrogant to think this business would actually work and it didn't. I know when he moved he complained to our Bishop that no one helped him. I was SO tempted to email him and say "you're a lawyer!!!!!! you're a rascally bumhead of a lawyer! you got money, hire a moving company why don't you??? I am not getting up on a sat. morning to help a lawyer move for free" but I didn't, alas
CA Steve Posted March 29, 2016 Posted March 29, 2016 15 minutes ago, Duncan said: I agree and it may have gone to that but i don't know the outcome. I think he was lynched actually!! either that or he got a haircut! I used to attend Church with him up until a few years ago, he is a slick, greasy, smooth operator. I can see it both ways, he messed over everyone on purpose or he is so arrogant to think this business would actually work and it didn't. I know when he moved he complained to our Bishop that no one helped him. I was SO tempted to email him and say "you're a lawyer!!!!!! you're a rascally bumhead of a lawyer! you got money, hire a moving company why don't you??? I am not getting up on a sat. morning to help a lawyer move for free" but I didn't, alas If he was moving out, I would think a lot of people would be there to help. 2
Duncan Posted March 29, 2016 Posted March 29, 2016 4 minutes ago, CA Steve said: If he was moving out, I would think a lot of people would be there to help. seriously! hahahahhaha!
Calm Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 10 hours ago, Meadowchik said: Bishop says the neighbour wants "his justice." It also seems a number of people in our ward and their previous ward (including my husband and our bishop) also want the neighbour to have "his justice." I'm uncomfortable with the idea of what they want to happen, ie., showing the neighbour his own faults in unanimous clarity. I feel like he is too unstable to respond well and that it could back him into a corner even further. The other day neighbour came out to check the mail and walked past me with an 18 inch piece of metal in one hand. His body language seemed to scream that he was looking for a reason to fight. A couple months ago after they met with a legal counsel--where he likely learned his assets could be eventually seized for nonpayment--he and his wife made their 2be car disappear. They don't keep it here anymore. In short, he seems frightened, paranoid, hostile, and menacing. I don't like the idea of him living next door to us while being unstable and him getting backed into a corner at a council. yeah, he could get destructive. Ask the bishop if the Church will rebuild any damage and pay for hospital bills. Well, not really, but somehow he needs to see he is playing with fire and it is your home and family that are most at risk. Are there any mental health professionals in the ward or stake that could be consulted about the wisdom of having a council? It sounds almost as less of an intervention and more of a chance for people to express their unhappiness with him in what they feel is a safe environment (safety in numbers)...but he is not going to be staying there surrounded by members for very long. 1
Calm Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 Confrontation could lead to selfdestructive behaviour as well as threats to others. What good does the bishop expect to get out of it, ask him what does he see as the best and the worst and what he thinks will lead to them? Make if he insists on going ahead that he has a concrete plan if you can. Does the bishop recognize the mental instability (which seems to me may lead to a question whether he is accountable or not in terms of a disciplinary council). 1
Meadowchik Posted March 30, 2016 Author Posted March 30, 2016 45 minutes ago, Calm said: Confrontation could lead to selfdestructive behaviour as well as threats to others. What good does the bishop expect to get out of it, ask him what does he see as the best and the worst and what he thinks will lead to them? Make if he insists on going ahead that he has a concrete plan if you can. Does the bishop recognize the mental instability (which seems to me may lead to a question whether he is accountable or not in terms of a disciplinary council). The bishop grants that he is unstable. He's already recommended to the neighbor that he goes to a detox center to wean off of his pain medication. However, the bishop does not believe the neighbor is or would be violent. I, however, feel differently. We have a handyman who has done a lot of work for us and at the neighbor's house and has spent considerable time with them and he believes our neighbor is violent in nature. As far as I know, the neighbor does not have a history of violence, not since joining the church as a young man. Yet he has told be he did a considerable amount of street-fighting before his conversion. Thanks for the questions, Calm. Here's the post I did on this problem last year. If only it had gotten better and not worse:
Meadowchik Posted March 30, 2016 Author Posted March 30, 2016 2 hours ago, Calm said: yeah, he could get destructive. Ask the bishop if the Church will rebuild any damage and pay for hospital bills. Well, not really, but somehow he needs to see he is playing with fire and it is your home and family that are most at risk. Are there any mental health professionals in the ward or stake that could be consulted about the wisdom of having a council? It sounds almost as less of an intervention and more of a chance for people to express their unhappiness with him in what they feel is a safe environment (safety in numbers)...but he is not going to be staying there surrounded by members for very long. It did not take me long to find this: http://edition.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/05/26/snap.moments/index.html?iref=newssearch and this: http://everydaypsychology.com/2008/07/why-do-people-kill-typology-of-violent.html#.VvuFbno5cac In the second link, our neighbor seems to have something from each category. 1. He resents authority and seems to relish confrontations. Last June when his wife snapped, yelled at us, and stormed inside, he seemed elated that she gone off on us rather than concerned that she was so upset. 2. He seems to allow anger to build up, then wait for it to come to a head and explode or create a confrontation where he can explode. When he accused us of being un-Christlike I challenged him to also look at himself and he answered that since he prays and reads his scriptures, he is good with God. 3. I have never seen him admit fault or mistake and he talks about being a chronic victim (of us and others) and people who have known him much longer say he has always been this way. 4. He has been traumatized in the past (he witnessed the death of his two best friends in his youth, and his father killed people) and so I think in some ways it is important to him that he is NOT his father, but I am worried about what would happen if his manhood and identity are very clearly threatened by further confrontations. 5. He seems obsessive and 6. Paranoid and 7. Unable to progress from one logical step to another if it is anyone's else's perspective, and he does not seem to realize this. 8. I think there are many instances in the past that has colored his perception of the church. He calls himself a victim and could see this court as a way to once and for all, clear himself before an authority figure and witnesses with us playing the proxy of all his persecutors.
cdowis Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 The church has made it clear that the primary role of the Bishop is to attend to the youth of the ward, and such matters should be referred to the home teachers and quorum leaders.. Let the bishop do his job.
Meadowchik Posted March 30, 2016 Author Posted March 30, 2016 1 hour ago, cdowis said: The church has made it clear that the primary role of the Bishop is to attend to the youth of the ward, and such matters should be referred to the home teachers and quorum leaders.. Let the bishop do his job. On the one hand, it is the bishop who is contemplating this council at the request of our neighbour, not us. On the other hand, this conflict directly affects 9 children, youth included, who represent a large portion of the young in our ward. This affects my ability to help my kids (including 2 youth with particularly difficult challenges) and their problems certainly affect our neighbours' 2 children as well, of course.
will227457 Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 I would not attend a council like this, it goes beyond the scope of the bishops role. Tell him to mind his own business. Hire a lawyer and get the bum kicked out legally. Why stress about it?
mnn727 Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 If these people are causing problems why haven't you evicted them? (To me getting the Church involved is 'causing problems')
Meadowchik Posted March 30, 2016 Author Posted March 30, 2016 34 minutes ago, mnn727 said: If these people are causing problems why haven't you evicted them? (To me getting the Church involved is 'causing problems') It's not that easy in France. Even if we have a legal reason it can take 18 months or more...
toon Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 If I had what was essentially a civil dispute with a fellow ward member, I'd most likely want the bishop to stay out of it, for the benefit both parties. And I'd like to think I'd feel this way regardless of how right I thought I was or whether I thought the bishop would take my side. Not if the civil dispute somehow boiled over to the point where it impacted either my or the other party's spiritual lives, or was disruptive to other members, church services, etc., then I could see how a bishop might step in there. And I wouldn't have a problem with a bishop giving one or both parties advice and guidance in the same manner that he might do so in other aspects of our lives. But that still sounds like a different situation from what's going on here. I would respectfully tell the bishop that while I have no problem with him providing counseling or advice to anyone on the matter, I'd prefer he stay out of trying to hear or mediate the matter. I also wouldn't interfere with the bishop hearing out the other party, especially if he (the other party) may have some mental illness or instability. And if after hearing out the other party, the bishop gave me some advice, I'd at least listen and consider it. But again, that's different that a hearing with witnesses. I wouldn't participate in something like that over a civil dispute like this.
toon Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 2 hours ago, Meadowchik said: It's not that easy in France. Even if we have a legal reason it can take 18 months or more... I once had a client who wanted to hire a sale representative in France. We partnered with a French law firm. The client had me draft the employment agreement it would prefer, based on California law. We then forwarded that to the firm in France for review and so that they could change as necessary, with the idea that we wanted an agreement as close as possible to our preferred language but that was enforceable in France and complied with French law. The revision came back almost unrecognizable. I had to explain to the client that they were all commies there.
Jeanne Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 Well I 'll tell you what..this would keep the Bishop busy and then some. meadowchik, I hope you can get this resolved soon. This can't be easy..what a trial for compassion and conflict.
Calm Posted March 31, 2016 Posted March 31, 2016 14 hours ago, will227457 said: . Hire a lawyer and get the bum kicked out legally. Why stress about it? The law doesn't allow them to do it. It is France. Are you aware of French law on tenants?
Calm Posted March 31, 2016 Posted March 31, 2016 Good luck. My only advice is trust yourself if you are uncomfortable about an action. Hopefully others, including the bishop will understand, but they might not and you need to plan your rssponse for that ahead of time so the emotion of the moment doesn't distract you (why I prefer to do stuff in writing). 1
Meadowchik Posted March 31, 2016 Author Posted March 31, 2016 (edited) 8 hours ago, Jeanne said: Well I 'll tell you what..this would keep the Bishop busy and then some. meadowchik, I hope you can get this resolved soon. This can't be easy..what a trial for compassion and conflict. Thank you, Jeanne. I hope so, and that they can also get into a better situation. It's so bizarre wanting to reasonably reconcile but feeling so completely unable because it won't be accepted. The upside is losing 25 pounds since January. Yay for stress diets! :/ Edited March 31, 2016 by Meadowchik 1
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