ERMD Posted March 31, 2016 Posted March 31, 2016 (edited) This is not an ecclesiastical matter. When I served as bishop, there were a few occasions when members tried to get me involved with legal or other personal non-church related conflicts, and I refused (with a long explanation). Edited March 31, 2016 by ERMD 1
mnn727 Posted March 31, 2016 Posted March 31, 2016 (edited) 21 hours ago, Meadowchik said: It's not that easy in France. Even if we have a legal reason it can take 18 months or more... What would happen if you decided you wanted or needed to move into the house or area they are currently renting? What if you just decided you no longer wanted to be landlords? Have you thought of offering them money to move? - sometimes its easier and cheaper in the long run just to give them an amount equal to 1 or 2 months rent just to move out. I was in a situation about 15 years ago where I was living in Texas and had a rental home in Florida (1100 miles away). I needed to get the renters out so I could get the home ready to sell. I offered them $1500 to move out within 2 weeks. $750 when they agreed and $750 when they were completely out with no damage to the home. (the rent at the time was $750 a month, so I was giving them 2 months rent). We spent a week getting it painted and new appliances/carpet in and put it on the market at a reasonable price and had it sold a couple days after that, less than 1 month from renters to sold. Edited March 31, 2016 by mnn727
Jeanne Posted March 31, 2016 Posted March 31, 2016 9 hours ago, Meadowchik said: Thank you, Jeanne. I hope so, and that they can also get into a better situation. It's so bizarre wanting to reasonably reconcile but feeling so completely unable because it won't be accepted. The upside is losing 25 pounds since January. Yay for stress diets! :/ Nice losing weight...but hope you take care of you, too. I enjoy you on this board and hope that this conflict can be resolved so that you can have a big juicy steak and fries! 1
ALarson Posted March 31, 2016 Posted March 31, 2016 21 hours ago, Meadowchik said: It's not that easy in France. Even if we have a legal reason it can take 18 months or more... I think I'd start the process now. Even if it takes 18 months to get them out, it would be worth it IMO. From what you've written here, it doesn't appear things are going to improve. I've been a landlord and it can be rough to have to evict someone
Meadowchik Posted March 31, 2016 Author Posted March 31, 2016 1 hour ago, mnn727 said: What would happen if you decided you wanted or needed to move into the house or area they are currently renting? What if you just decided you no longer wanted to be landlords? Have you thought of offering them money to move? - sometimes its easier and cheaper in the long run just to give them an amount equal to 1 or 2 months rent just to move out. I was in a situation about 15 years ago where I was living in Texas and had a rental home in Florida (1100 miles away). I needed to get the renters out so I could get the home ready to sell. I offered them $1500 to move out within 2 weeks. $750 when they agreed and $750 when they were completely out with no damage to the home. (the rent at the time was $750 a month, so I was giving them 2 months rent). We spent a week getting it painted and new appliances/carpet in and put it on the market at a reasonable price and had it sold a couple days after that, less than 1 month from renters to sold. Thanks for the tips. By law we cannot have them leave until the contract is up in 3+ years, and then only for 3 kinds of verifiable reasons. If they are still here, we'll notify that we want to occupy it. It is an apartment attached to the house where we live and by that time we'll have adult kids who could use the space. 2
Jeanne Posted March 31, 2016 Posted March 31, 2016 1 hour ago, ALarson said: I think I'd start the process now. Even if it takes 18 months to get them out, it would be worth it IMO. From what you've written here, it doesn't appear things are going to improve. I've been a landlord and it can be rough to have to evict someone I have been a landlord too. I can't imagine what you are going through. I had some problems and just gave them 30 days to out. You seem to be between a rock and a hard place here with all of the laws. But I agree with ALarson, whatever you can do, do now. 1
Meadowchik Posted March 31, 2016 Author Posted March 31, 2016 1 hour ago, Jeanne said: Nice losing weight...but hope you take care of you, too. I enjoy you on this board and hope that this conflict can be resolved so that you can have a big juicy steak and fries! Thanks, Jeanne, that is so kind! Fortunately, I've had lulls when I've been able to eat. And I bought a juicer to help get nutrients and that has made me strong. Especially since a contentious encounter on January 1st, I have felt like we have a mortal enemy living next door. And my intellectual mind cannot rationalise it away, not in good conscience. 1
Meadowchik Posted March 31, 2016 Author Posted March 31, 2016 1 hour ago, ALarson said: I think I'd start the process now. Even if it takes 18 months to get them out, it would be worth it IMO. From what you've written here, it doesn't appear things are going to improve. I've been a landlord and it can be rough to have to evict someone We have essentially done that. They refused to pay utilities a couple's months and since nonpayment is grounds for eviction, we've filed papers requesting an order to pay. That's the initial step we must follow. 1
ALarson Posted March 31, 2016 Posted March 31, 2016 1 minute ago, Meadowchik said: We have essentially done that. They refused to pay utilities a couple's months and since nonpayment is grounds for eviction, we've filed papers requesting an order to pay. That's the initial step we must follow. Well, good luck to you...sincerely. What a horrible situation to be in and for them to be living is such close proximity it must make life tough at times. Again, I'm so sorry Please keep us posted regarding what happens (with your Bishop and with your tenants). 1
Meadowchik Posted March 31, 2016 Author Posted March 31, 2016 7 minutes ago, ALarson said: Well, good luck to you...sincerely. What a horrible situation to be in and for them to be living is such close proximity it must make life tough at times. Again, I'm so sorry Please keep us posted regarding what happens (with your Bishop and with your tenants). Thank you very much. I'm feeling especially grumpy today and being able to read the support here does help! 1
mfbukowski Posted March 31, 2016 Posted March 31, 2016 On 3/29/2016 at 8:29 AM, Meadowchik said: Hey, I'm looking for a little more information on this topic. On Sunday, our bishop pulled my husband and I aside to update us on our fellow ward member who is also our tenant and neighbor. I've previously mentioned the problems we had with them in a thread here last Spring--along with a comment here and there when my experience seem to inform another topic--and the problems with them have gotten progressively worse since. The neighbor has requested a hearing from the Stake President about our dispute. Our families have already been to voluntary mediation through the public courts and we've also met with the bishop more than once, we've also felt compelled to report (what we thought was) criminal activity on their part because it appeared they had entered a part of our property that they were not allowed to enter, which was locked, and when they had not been given a key. Anyways, the bishop says that the Stake President leaves it up to the bishop about whether to hold a council with the neighbor us. The bishop says he will talk to his counselors first before deciding, but he emphasized to us that if there was a council, he believes it will not go well at all for our neighbor. The issue I have with this is that, if the Bishop believes that our neighbor's request is just another expression of his neurotic behavior, how could it be helpful to enable those thought processes? How could it help to let the neighbor believe he'll be attending a council against us when the bishop clearly intends to expose the neighbor's narcissism? I just cannot see this going well. The man is sick and mentally unstable. So, what are the policies and reasons for bishop councils intended to solve member disputes? Thoughts, Advice? Thanks! I have not read the thread From this, it sounds like it is best for everyone if the council is not held. The Bishop should have the chops to stand up to the neighbor and tell him that holding a council is probably not the best decision for him (the neighbor) to make, but that the bishop will do so if he insists. 1
Meadowchik Posted April 17, 2016 Author Posted April 17, 2016 (edited) Mini-update: the bishop has not yet pursued a council so it has been relatively mellow around here. The tension will ratchet up this week, however, as the court clerk will be delivering our neighbours an order to pay bills which they've refused to pay. Today while pondering this within I felt an invitation to yet again look beyond the contention and rise above it. I hope I will! Edited April 17, 2016 by Meadowchik
ALarson Posted April 17, 2016 Posted April 17, 2016 29 minutes ago, Meadowchik said: Mini-update: the bishop has not yet pursued a council so it has been relatively mellow around here. The tension will ratchet up this weeI, however, as the court clerk will be delivering our neighbours an order to pay bills which they've refused to pay. Today while pondering this within I felt an invitation to yet again look beyond the contention and rise above it. I hope I will! What a difficult situation It sounds like you are trying very hard to be fair and honorable.
Jeanne Posted April 17, 2016 Posted April 17, 2016 On 3/31/2016 at 7:36 AM, ERMD said: This is not an ecclesiastical matter. When I served as bishop, there were a few occasions when members tried to get me involved with legal or other personal non-church related conflicts, and I refused (with a long explanation). I think this is wise. It may have worked during the early, early days..but not now.
Meadowchik Posted April 17, 2016 Author Posted April 17, 2016 3 minutes ago, ALarson said: What a difficult situation It sounds like you are trying very hard to be fair and honorable. We're trying. Thank you for the support. Being able to talk about it helps. 1
Meadowchik Posted April 17, 2016 Author Posted April 17, 2016 3 hours ago, The Nehor said: Have you considered egging their door? I may or may not feel tempted when I clean up their dogs' poop, but it ends up in the trash
Meadowchik Posted May 2, 2016 Author Posted May 2, 2016 Update: The bishop called. Our neighbor has continued to write letters to the stake president, while we have not have any discussion with him (ever) or the bishop (except in passing) on this subject since the meeting I spoke about in the OP. Yesterday I had a temple recommend interview and the bishop then forwarded a request to the stake presidency to arrange a meeting this week for my stake recommend interview. Today the SP told our bishop that, until this issue is resolved, I am not to have a recommend. The bishop is coming Thurday morning with his counselors to speak to my husband and I. I spoke to my parents and sought their advice, and I plan to heed it my writing out the points of our perspective in this situation so that our bishopric might have a detailed perspective of our side of this mess. On the legal side, we had submitted an order of payment to the local court for bills the tenant/neighbor has not paid. As the tenant said months ago, he does not agree with them and so he's either refused to pay any utilities some months while only paying partially in other months. This is a remarkable change because they never expressed any disagreement with the charges in the past. Also, in France it is illegal to stop payment based on disagreemnt. A complaint must first be filed with the court and a decision sought by the court. The law does not allow for a person to unilaterally stop paying the rent or part of it. (To be clear if they had trouble paying we'd have arranged something for them, but they refused not for the inability to pay but because he was unwilling to pay.) The court approved the order of payment and it was delivered to the neighbors last Friday. I suspect that this has something to do with the most recent letters that the neighbor has sent to the stake president. So, I felt pretty angry immediately after the call and called the bishop back (as he had only spoken about this with my husband) and I left a message, stating I was concerned that he did not discuss this with me as it is my temple worthiness that seems to be questioned in this mandate by the Stake President. Before the bishop called this evening I was feeling quite peaceful about the situation, about the direction in which we were proceeding and about the manner in which we're dealing with this. I still feel that peace, even moreso after writing this out. I've been a member all my life and I don't plan on changing that, and I have defended the Church many times, as many of you know on this board. I suppose that it is my turn to experience the unpleasantness that can come with the human side of the church But we'll get through this. 4
ttribe Posted May 2, 2016 Posted May 2, 2016 ^^^The SP said you can't have a recommend until this is resolved? Good grief. That's just ridiculous.
Meadowchik Posted May 2, 2016 Author Posted May 2, 2016 23 minutes ago, ttribe said: ^^^The SP said you can't have a recommend until this is resolved? Good grief. That's just ridiculous. It seems like a reflex action to the letters of the neighbor/tenant. He can be very long-winded and rather persuasive. But I think that going to the temple could be a good thing for us, and could help guide us in how to maneuver through this conflict.
ttribe Posted May 2, 2016 Posted May 2, 2016 26 minutes ago, Meadowchik said: It seems like a reflex action to the letters of the neighbor/tenant. He can be very long-winded and rather persuasive. But I think that going to the temple could be a good thing for us, and could help guide us in how to maneuver through this conflict. It sounds very much like a reflex response; I agree. I think he should have contacted you directly, first, to get your side of the story before issuing a prohibition on renewing your recommend (even if the prohibition is temporary).
Meadowchik Posted May 2, 2016 Author Posted May 2, 2016 3 minutes ago, ttribe said: It sounds very much like a reflex response; I agree. I think he should have contacted you directly, first, to get your side of the story before issuing a prohibition on renewing your recommend (even if the prohibition is temporary). I've just finished my list of points to discuss with the Bishopric on Thursday. I want to have them well-laid out on paper so that I can efficiently convey our perspective, try to minimize the length of the meeting for all of us, but also it's important to get the words out in French so that I can be understood because I struggle more with it when I'm nervous.
Jeanne Posted May 2, 2016 Posted May 2, 2016 On 4/17/2016 at 10:45 AM, Meadowchik said: Mini-update: the bishop has not yet pursued a council so it has been relatively mellow around here. The tension will ratchet up this week, however, as the court clerk will be delivering our neighbours an order to pay bills which they've refused to pay. Today while pondering this within I felt an invitation to yet again look beyond the contention and rise above it. I hope I will! Thanks for the update. You seem amazingly strong. Look beyond all of this and find that light at the end of this tunnel. I will be routing for you. It is time for the neighbors to be accountable....which is all the Bishop could have said anyway. Hugs..Jeanne
HappyJackWagon Posted May 2, 2016 Posted May 2, 2016 5 minutes ago, Meadowchik said: I've just finished my list of points to discuss with the Bishopric on Thursday. I want to have them well-laid out on paper so that I can efficiently convey our perspective, try to minimize the length of the meeting for all of us, but also it's important to get the words out in French so that I can be understood because I struggle more with it when I'm nervous. Best of luck. I'm sorry you're having this negative experience. You have a very forgiving attitude which is kind and gracious. But this is a form of unrighteous dominion. Sometimes a little fight is called for and very proper.
Meadowchik Posted May 2, 2016 Author Posted May 2, 2016 2 minutes ago, Jeanne said: Thanks for the update. You seem amazingly strong. Look beyond all of this and find that light at the end of this tunnel. I will be routing for you. It is time for the neighbors to be accountable....which is all the Bishop could have said anyway. Hugs..Jeanne Thank you, Jeanne! Hugs back!
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