Would You Attend A Wedding For A SSM?

[ttribe]

5 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Good to know where you stand and what you stand for.

I and our Father in heaven on the other hand do not want people to feel good when they know we do not approve of their choices.

1 - you have no idea what I "stand for"

2 - the fact that you think you speak for our Father in Heaven, is further evidence of arrogance applied to the topic

[Ahab]

1 minute ago, ttribe said:

1 - you have no idea what I "stand for"

2 - the fact that you think you speak for our Father in Heaven, is further evidence of arrogance applied to the topic

1 - what you say you approve of and do not approve of tells me that about you

2 - your perception of arrogance is flawed

[ttribe]

On 3/17/2016 at 4:27 PM, Ahab said:

1 - what you say you approve of and do not approve of tells me that about you

2 - your perception of arrogance is flawed

Whatever you say, Ahab.  I've long since learned that you have an inflated view of your own opinions and any discussion of the fact is pointless.  Enjoy your "inflicting pain on others because they deserve it" approach to life.  That's still sadistic and creepy, IMO.

Edited March 19, 2016 by ttribe

[Daniel2]

Much has been said in a short period of time.  I can see that some things have been answered (namely, Smac's CFR, including him quoting the portions of the handbook which confirm my previous post), and other questions have been posed, and I understand that Smac has "bowed out" after lobbing a couple of personal insults my way.  In the name of attempting to clarify a few things, I'll attempt to address them here, then drop this tangent, as it's strayed from the OP, anyway...

When my mother first heard of her bishop's objection to my speaking about my dad at his funeral, in a moment of frustration, she said she'd move the funeral to another venue before allowing someone to prevent me from speaking.  While I appreciated the depth of her support, it soon became evident that the logistical reality of moving Dad's funeral elsewhere were prohibitive because, first, as others have correctly assumed, Dad had already laid out his dying wishes, which included specific instructions regarding his funeral, and my Dad would never have imagined it at any other place than the church he dearly loved and was devoted to.  I wouldn't dream of denying him that right and privilege.  Ward members were already involved, the program was already finalized, and preparations had been in place for years, given the chronic nature of my dad's illness. 

But even more problematic was the brutal reality that after spending the last three years in hospice at several Skilled Nursing homes, Mom didn't have much money to spend on a funeral.  She's been struggling to make ends meet to pay for the outrageous cost of health care, and in order to qualify for Medicaid coverage, their finances were under scrutiny to ensure they didn't have any hidden funds anywhere (and a testament to how broken our senior health care program is, IMO... but that's another story).  Dad had a modest casket, minimal décor (save that which was donated by family and friends), and skipped the viewing at the mortuary--we'd planned to have it all at the chapel.  It wasn't the time or place to ask my family to spend more money on a funeral home to accommodate me being able to speak.

It's been suggested that I'm somehow personally attacking and publically maligning the local leadership, using terms like 'low blow,' 'cheap shot,' and 'internet bully,' decrying the fact that the bishop and stake president 'aren't here to defend themselves.' As has been pointed out by others, no--I have not used any individuals' names, and no individual has been publically criticized--and that was entirely intentional on my part, and so from my perspective, claims I am personally maligning anyone are misguided.  My comments about failing to see compassion and charity in the circumstances were not directed towards any individual (go back and re-read what I posted).  My use of those words were directed at the policies and restrictions regarding the situation itself.

As the sole child that was present locally to comfort my mother, it was my observation that this entire experience caused considerable distress and many tears to my mother at this time.  Again, I am just calling that like I saw it--though I appreciated my family's support, we all felt helpless and frustrated in the midst of losing Dad.

It has been said that I'm "airing my family's dirty laundry," and some have chastised the fact that I've brought this up without giving the church a chance to tell "their side of the story."  Frankly, I find these and the previous accusations to be heavy-handed.  I did not run to the local media and and turn my father's funeral into a circus to publically attack the church and try to make it look bad.  I didn't use the individual names or personally attack the local leadership involved.  I've waited for a few months to ensure my grief has had time to wane, and I brought up the issue in the course of a conversation which seemed relevant based on the questions that were posed to me in what I felt is as accurate but also as benign as I could have been.  Smac likes to assert that he expects us to be able to discuss topics "in good faith."  I am reminded that Smac was quite vocal in a recent thread advocating in support of the sentiment that LDS leaders should be exempt from criticism, even if the criticism is true.  From my view, if I/we can't peacefully discuss experiences we've had like this on an LDS-themed message board called "Mormon Discussions,"  I wonder if such critics ever WOULD find ANY place to be a more appropriate venue...?

Edited March 18, 2016 by Daniel2

[Ahab]

1 minute ago, ttribe said:

Whatever you say, Ahab.  I've long since learned that you have an inflated view of your own opinions and any discussion of the fact is pointless.  Enjoy your "inflicting pain on others because they deserve it" approach to life.  That's still masochistic and creepy, IMO.

Does the word "empathy" mean anything at all to you?

The pain I'm talking about is the pain I feel when I know people are doing things that are not good to do, and if your idea of a masochist is a person who is empathetic enough to feel some of my righteous pain with me then I will leave that perception to you.  However creeped out you may be.

 

[BlueDreams]

3 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Could one not "see the difference" while, at the same time, strongly disapprove of both for separate reasons?

If you are disapproving of both for separate reasons....isn't that indicating there's a difference? I don't exactly get your question.

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

As for the other part of your quote above, I repeat that throughout this thread, it seems for the most part, it is those who have indicated they would not attend a gay wedding who are coming under fire here just because we won't agree with the rest of you. We have been implicitly accused of inconsistency, if not hypocrisy. In one case, there was an accusation of shunning.

If you earnestly hold to your opinion, fine; don't think you have to validate it by talking me into changing my mind.

Fair enough.  I don't intend to change your mind, but am trying to explain mine.  I am trying to justify my reasons more than I am trying to change yours.  BD is right in that we are curious as to your position so there is some probing for sure.  

I feel the need to justify my reasons because it has been said that my reasons for attending a gay wedding are naive in that attending a gay wedding does equate to endorsement regardless of my reasons for attendance.  That attendance at a wedding is irreconcilable with the example Christ set.  My attendance has been strangely compared to Maccabee’s compulsory attendance at the sacrifice of swine.  It has been said that attending a gay wedding is like granting condonation of normalized grossly immoral behavior and is cowardly, however well-intended.

To me it appears the accusations, aggression, and judgement are not so one sided after all.  I respect your position, but I feel that mine also deserves respect.  I can attend in good church standing and a clean conscience before man and God.

Edited March 18, 2016 by pogi

[ttribe]

45 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Does the word "empathy" mean anything at all to you?

The pain I'm talking about is the pain I feel when I know people are doing things that are not good to do, and if your idea of a masochist is a person who is empathetic enough to feel some of my righteous pain with me then I will leave that perception to you.  However creeped out you may be.

 

Nonsense.  You specifically stated that you want people to feel "pain" because of your actions and that you think that's good for them based on your judgment of their sins.  That's not empathy; that's just...crazy.

BTW, I find your Glamour-Shot avatar kind of creepy, too.

[jcake]

I would attend the wedding.  But I'm pretty questionable, as I've committed other great sins of the bible, like eating bacon, and speaking in church even though I'm female.  I don't think gay marriage is the same as marriage between a man and a woman.  I suspect that mistakes have been made, and how to regard a same sex, faithful, committed attachment, is not something we have the best grasp of within our church culture  But, any heterosexual person that is willing to demonstrate to me by their own, voluntary, choosing to remain celebate and alone through this life, how successful and fulfilling such a lifestyle can be, that is a person worth listening to on this subject. 

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, pogi said:

As opposed to the gays who willfully and knowingly adorn themselves with the heavy, clinking chains of hell, in open rebellion against the dictates of their own conscience.  Performing the deliberately evil and malevolent act of marriage, for the sole purpose of tasting the bitter, thick clouds of darkness which slips into their soul through their gaping mouth, as they proclaim the words, "I do!" 

I have been going to the wrong weddings if this is what SSM weddings are like. A dose of bdsm and then getting possessed or sucking in clouds of pure evil as they chant the black magic of their foul wedding rites.

That sounds fun. Are there any coming up?

[Ahab]

2 hours ago, ttribe said:

Nonsense.  You specifically stated that you want people to feel "pain" because of your actions and that you think that's good for them based on your judgment of their sins.  That's not empathy; that's just...crazy.

BTW, I find your Glamour-Shot avatar kind of creepy, too.

You don't do a very good job of representing other people's thoughts or feelings.   And I can tell because you don't represent my thoughts and feelings very well. Whether or not that is intentional,  I can not tell.

And yes I can imagine.  Many people are creeped out about how good looking I am.  Get over it if you can.

[SeekerB]

I would not go. There is nothing to be thrilled about here. If you are thrilled about this, your point of view is in error. Same sex relationships are contrary to the commandments of Christ. Some may be offended by this, but it is still true.

[ttribe]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

You don't do a very good job of representing other people's thoughts or feelings.   And I can tell because you don't represent my thoughts and feelings very well. Whether or not that is intentional,  I can not tell.

And yes I can imagine.  Many people are creeped out about how good looking I am.  Get over it if you can.

[GingerRed]

I would only go if there's dancing at the reception!   Dancing with gay guys is fun! 

Okay, in all seriousness......yes I'm an active LDS woman who doesn't condone SSM.....but.... I would go for two reasons...

One....just to show the friend or family member I care about them . I would not be a part of the wedding party, or help plan, etc. I would just be a guest.

I , like a lot of others here, don't look at that as 'supporting gay marriage" 

Two......I always look at large gatherings as an opportunity to share the Gospel. Sounds nuts, huh?  Ok, its a pretty slim chance any other guest would want to know about my beliefs in this particular setting......but...what if?..... What if just one person is curious? I'm sitting at a table of people and one says... " You're Mormon?? What the heck are you doing here?" ...  that's a pretty good opener for a polite discussion.  ( no I would never say anything condemning, or negative ...I would rely on the Spirit for the right words to come. )...hey..it could happen! Its not TOTALLY impossible! I've heard some pretty wild stories of how people found the Gospel! ) 

Wouldn't that be one HECK of a Sacrament conversion story??  " Well ..I first heard about the Gospel at a wedding of a gay friend of mine......"...then watch all the eyes get big in the congregation! LOL   

 

Hey I'm a Scorpio......we LOVE surprising/shocking people!  

 

Red

 

[Senator]

21 hours ago, Ahab said:

That particular type of relationship shouldn't even exist so if I wholeheartedly endorse destroying any that do exist and doing whatever I can do with a good conscience to prevent any more from happening. 

Heck ya!

Where can I get my Became an A$$ FOR Jesus bumper sticker?

[Senator]

10 hours ago, ttribe said:

It get creepier by the minute!!

 

[Jeanne]

10 hours ago, GingerRed said:

I would only go if there's dancing at the reception!   Dancing with gay guys is fun! 

Okay, in all seriousness......yes I'm an active LDS woman who doesn't condone SSM.....but.... I would go for two reasons...

One....just to show the friend or family member I care about them . I would not be a part of the wedding party, or help plan, etc. I would just be a guest.

I , like a lot of others here, don't look at that as 'supporting gay marriage" 

Two......I always look at large gatherings as an opportunity to share the Gospel. Sounds nuts, huh?  Ok, its a pretty slim chance any other guest would want to know about my beliefs in this particular setting......but...what if?..... What if just one person is curious? I'm sitting at a table of people and one says... " You're Mormon?? What the heck are you doing here?" ...  that's a pretty good opener for a polite discussion.  ( no I would never say anything condemning, or negative ...I would rely on the Spirit for the right words to come. )...hey..it could happen! Its not TOTALLY impossible! I've heard some pretty wild stories of how people found the Gospel! ) 

Wouldn't that be one HECK of a Sacrament conversion story??  " Well ..I first heard about the Gospel at a wedding of a gay friend of mine......"...then watch all the eyes get big in the congregation! LOL   

 

Hey I'm a Scorpio......we LOVE surprising/shocking people!  

 

Red

 

I like your attitude!!!  In Cache Valley..unless there is dancing at a wedding..I don't get to dance!

[Atheist Mormon]

Amazing how far along we are coming as public, I like the progress of acceptance gay people, still find excruciatingly slow......

I'm happy to read so many positive responses.

[consiglieri]

22 hours ago, bluebell said:

He's just paraphrasing the bible.   Every Christian of every denomination knows that God must come first-it's the most important rule of the religion.  The first and greatest command to love God above everything else doesn't seem all that scandalizing (or kool-aid reference worthy).

I hope you know how much I appreciate you, Bluebell.

But I fear you have made the capital mistake of equating the LDS Church with God.

It is something Latter-day Saints are trained to do from Primary on up.

And it manifests itself in a variety of ways.

Let me rephrase the last line of your post with this in mind:

"The first and greatest command to love the LDS Church above everything else doesn't seem all that scandalizing (or Kool-Aid reference worthy)."

See how scandalizing and Kool-Aid reference worthy it sounds when you reframe the sentence along the lines of what it is you actually mean?

[consiglieri]

1 hour ago, Senator said:

Heck ya!

Where can I get my Became an A$$ FOR Jesus bumper sticker?

At the same place I got my ASSMAN license plate.

[GingerRed]

26 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I like your attitude!!!  In Cache Valley..unless there is dancing at a wedding..I don't get to dance!

Thanks

One other thing I should have mentioned......I would pray about it first.

If God says, don't go, I don't go. If He says, yes go.....I would go. I would trust Him as to why I need to be there, aside from being there for my friends/family's sake. It's His call.

But I wouldn't just flat out say, I'm NOT going to a gay wedding! Period! How do I know it would be against God, if I don't ask Him, with an open mind and heart, first? 

 

Red

[bluebell]

14 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

I hope you know how much I appreciate you, Bluebell.

But I fear you have made the capital mistake of equating the LDS Church with God.

It is something Latter-day Saints are trained to do from Primary on up.

And it manifests itself in a variety of ways.

Let me rephrase the last line of your post with this in mind:

"The first and greatest command to love the LDS Church above everything else doesn't seem all that scandalizing (or Kool-Aid reference worthy)."

See how scandalizing and Kool-Aid reference worthy it sounds when you reframe the sentence along the lines of what it is you actually mean?

But that's NOT what I actually mean. 

If someone sincerely believes that what the church is teaching on a specific topic is actually God's will, then when they follow it, they believe they are choosing God. 

Don't be so quick to assume you understand people's motivations for their beliefs. That's truly scandalizing (that's probably one of the better words I've made up this month. Feel free to use it often.  )

[Scott Lloyd]

18 hours ago, pogi said:

Fair enough.  I don't intend to change your mind, but am trying to explain mine.  I am trying to justify my reasons more than I am trying to change yours.  BD is right in that we are curious as to your position so there is some probing for sure.  

I feel the need to justify my reasons because it has been said that my reasons for attending a gay wedding are naive in that attending a gay wedding does equate to endorsement regardless of my reasons for attendance.  That attendance at a wedding is irreconcilable with the example Christ set.  My attendance has been strangely compared to Maccabee’s compulsory attendance at the sacrifice of swine.  It has been said that attending a gay wedding is like granting condonation of normalized grossly immoral behavior and is cowardly, however well-intended.

To me it appears the accusations, aggression, and judgement are not so one sided after all.  I respect your position, but I feel that mine also deserves respect.  I can attend in good church standing and a clean conscience before man and God.

OK, gotta say the part in bold in particular exemplifies the chip-on-the-shoulder mentality I'm seeing on this thread. If anyone here has said your opinion renders you ineligible to "attend [church in good] standing," I haven't seen it.

It really does come across that you can't feel your opinion is validated unless and until you can talk everyone into agreeing with you.

Edited March 18, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

53 minutes ago, bluebell said:

But that's NOT what I actually mean. 

If someone sincerely believes that what the church is teaching on a specific topic is actually God's will, then when they follow it, they believe they are choosing God. 

Don't be so quick to assume you understand people's motivations for their beliefs. That's truly scandalizing (that's probably one of the better words I've made up this month. Feel free to use it often.  )

Of course, it must be recognized that consiglieri, consistent with his own declaration, approaches these discussions from the standpoint that he has more spirituality than all of the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve combined, so it stands to reason that he is going to be upset whenever anyone appears to express loyalty to the Church of Jesus Christ in a manner that contradicts his opinions, even if that person sincerely believes that the Church and its leaders are aligned with the will of God.

Edited March 18, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[consiglieri]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

 

If someone sincerely believes that what the church is teaching on a specific topic is actually God's will, then when they follow it, they believe they are choosing God. 

 

I think you have put your finger on it here, with perhaps a bit more clarification.

The Church itself teaches that whatever it teaches on whatever topic is actually God's will.

Hence, I often hear of members substituting God for the Church in their discourse without even recognizing it.

For instance, in an Ensign article a year or so ago about how to deal with difficult questions regarding the church and its history, the one all-encompassing answer was boiled down to the question, "Do you trust God?"

Of course, what was really meant had nothing to do with whether the troubled member trusted God.

What was meant was whether the troubled member trusted the Church's representations that it speaks for God.

Which was what made the member troubled in the first place.

In a similar vein, Elder Poelman gave a General Conference talk in 1984 delineating the differences between the LDS Church and the gospel.

And we all know how well that went over . . .