Mass Apostasy Under Way? Lawyer Claims to Have Processed 6,500 Resignations

[UtahTexan]

2 minutes ago, Okrahomer said:

You'll have to go deep into the "I Am so Torn" thread to read how this relationship was discovered.  It's one of the more remarkable stories of this board.

it was one of several miracles that led me back to the Church...and then to Utah from Texas

[ALarson]

7 minutes ago, CountryBoy said:

funny thing is....we had no idea we were related until we happen to talk on the phone.  She said she felt drawn to me.....we had no idea.......we had messaged for several weeks before we discovered the relation......odd, huh?

Very cool. 

[mfbukowski]

9 minutes ago, ttribe said:

I'm not commenting on what you "have done in court."  I'm only commenting on you passing judgment on the population of an entire state based on a small sample here on a backwater Internet message board; that's it.  You're the one who took the discussion off on these weird tangents.

I moved to Utah when I first joined the church because I wanted to live in Zion.

I found it extremely polarized, and quite weird.  It was nothing like the church in California.  I lived in SLC for a year and could not stand it.

My opinion is not based on this board, but any means.  The differences are vast.   I know Scott will not like that, but for me, it is the truth.

 

[ttribe]

17 minutes ago, CountryBoy said:

I am making judgments based on what I have read....on this thread...and the fact that I made my comments about lack of independence....and only one person sorta contradicted my judgment....by asking me not to paint too broadly.......no insults.

I am not sure how many cases you have tried as an attorney...and how often you have examined and cross-examined witnesses.....and how often you have admitted evidence into court......but I have been doing it for a long time.  Your comments to me as me being an attorney and questioning my judgment were out of line and I have defended as the attorney you challenged.  And my comments were not on weird tangents, but responding to an attorney making claims about 6500 people. 

Ugggh, I already told you I'm not an attorney.

Here's a suggestion - if you don't wish to interact with people who are likely to disagree with you, stay off Internet message boards.

 

[ttribe]

6 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I moved to Utah when I first joined the church because I wanted to live in Zion.

I found it extremely polarized, and quite weird.  It was nothing like the church in California.  I lived in SLC for a year and could not stand it.

My opinion is not based on this board, but any means.  The differences are vast.   I know Scott will not like that, but for me, it is the truth.

 

Well that's totally different from what CB is going on about and I don't disagree with you about some of the cultural elements unique to living in Utah...fry-sauce being chief among them.

[rodheadlee]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I think it is obvious why they are resigning if indeed they are

That is their business if they want to do that, and there is not much that can be done about it/

If you do not believe in the church, you resign.  Good for them!  What alternative would you suggest?

Cultivating a relationship with Heavenly Father through the Holy Spirit would be a good place to start.  We do this by reading scripture and much prayer. I think a discussion on doing this would be fine.

[flameburns623]

CountryBoy:

Apparently, you have spent a significant part of your life as a seeker and have touched base with a variety of religious groups.

And from the way you talk about shucking one ecclesial community for another, you evidently did not have nor form many close personal friendships and relationships while in those communities.

In many cases, neither did I. There's nothing wrong with that. 

However.

I have said that when I resigned my membership in the LDS Church, the local leadership did not make it hard. That is true in one sense. In another--leaving the first time was VERY hard. 

The Bishop of my military ward may not have been my bishop any more: but he was a sweet, kindly, grandfatherly man for whom I felt great affection. He had seen me join and it hurt him and his wife to see me go.

Leaving that ward also estranged me from a number of other friends. They did not shun nor outright reject me but there was a strain when we were brought together which made it easier to avoid coming together too often.

And this although I had no close family or other relationships whose pain at my 'apostasy' might have remained a open wound for many years.

Nor was I raised Mormon, with a deeply embedded Mormon conscience ripped raw by whatever disillusionment had led me to leave.

Still, that first departure was memorably painful.

Enough so that although I lapsed into inactivity rather quickly when my second ward was split about two years after I rejoined; and although I took part in and became a member of other religious bodies: I was reluctant to resign a second time.  

I did so after having been inactive for so many many years that I had not even seen a home teacher in nearly a decade. I was on a first name basis with no one in my last ward of record: I even had to use the Church website to remember the name of my last bishop.

Your comments, affirmed repeatedly,  that those who in leaving seek the help of an intermediary--to wit, an attorney--are "weak", are comments somehow wanting in compassion.

People whose personal ties and bonds to the Church were more personally meaningful than yours seem to have been might well want to minimize the drama of departure.

They might want to deter an LDS bishop from calling their mother. Or their grandfather or their lifelong friend and current home teacher.

The resigning member may prefer to break this news to family or friends in their own time and their own way.

They perhaps no longer see that Branch President or Stake leader as a religious authority-- but they're still fishing buddies or bowling partners or softball team mates.

Or, long-lost cousins.

Can you not see that if such people were tasked with probing someone's decision to resign the Church, it could affect their relationship in other ways?

The resignee may prefer not to put that other party in a difficult position. Especially if, after having been an Inactive for so long, Church affiliation no longer really comes up.

Hopefully, in reflecting on these things, you can feel at least some empathy for why someone might seek use of an intermediary, even of a lawyer. 

Edited March 1, 2016 by flameburns623
Typo

[flameburns623]

Deleted. Redundant post.

Edited March 1, 2016 by flameburns623

[UtahTexan]

7 hours ago, ttribe said:

Ugggh, I already told you I'm not an attorney.

Here's a suggestion - if you don't wish to interact with people who are likely to disagree with you, stay off Internet message boards.

 

I know....just wanted to hear you say it again so that YOU really know.....and nope...I am enjoying myself.

Perhaps, if YOU choose to interact...learn HOW to do so.  Two people challenged my classification of folks from Utah.  One said to not paint too broadly....I thought that was a great comment....no passive-aggressive tools being used.  Then you attack my judgment ability.  Yours was less than charitable and invited a less-positive discourse.  So...just a suggestion....

Edited March 1, 2016 by CountryBoy

[UtahTexan]

4 hours ago, flameburns623 said:

CountryBoy:

Apparently, you have spent a significant part of your life as a seeker and have touched base with a variety of religious groups.

And from the way you talk about shucking one ecclesial community for another, you evidently did not have nor form many close personal friendships and relationships while in those communities.

My comments were not from ME shucking any specific group, but watching others do it.  Yes, I have sought.....I have belonged with three groups of my choice..one I was raised in.

In many cases, neither did I. There's nothing wrong with that. 

However.

I have said that when I resigned my membership in the LDS Church, the local leadership did not make it hard. That is true in one sense. In another--leaving the first time was VERY hard. 

The Bishop of my military ward may not have been my bishop any more: but he was a sweet, kindly, grandfatherly man for whom I felt great affection. He had seen me join and it hurt him and his wife to see me go.

Leaving that ward also estranged me from a number of other friends. They did not shun nor outright reject me but there was a strain when we were brought together which made it easier to avoid coming together too often.

Me too....leaving friends was hard, or, better said, them leaving me....but I was speaking about the act of leaving an organization...the mechanics of leaving....not the ramifications

 

Your comments, affirmed repeatedly,  that those who in leaving seek the help of an intermediary--to wit, an attorney--are "weak", are comments somehow wanting in compassion.

Again, my comments are only directed to the mechanics of leaving.  I suspect many might need counseling.....however....let me say this.....getting an attorney will not help in the emotional aspects of leaving.  Especially when it becomes news.....

People whose personal ties and bonds to the Church were more personally meaningful than yours seem to have been might well want to minimize the drama of departure.

The friends I lost leaving was very painful....in some ways still is.  But that did not the mechanics of resigning any more difficult.  Getting an attorney rarely makes things less difficult emotionally...

 

[ttribe]

11 minutes ago, CountryBoy said:

I know....just wanted to hear you say it again so that YOU really know.....and nope...I am enjoying myself.

So, you're trolling. Got it. 

[UtahTexan]

10 minutes ago, ttribe said:

So, you're trolling. Got it. 

ah...so having fun is trolling?  LOL......I always enjoy discussions.  But...when you are at a loss...you get personal.  Geez....I am sorry you do not enjoy this.

[ttribe]

2 hours ago, CountryBoy said:

ah...so having fun is trolling?  LOL......I always enjoy discussions.  But...when you are at a loss...you get personal.  Geez....I am sorry you do not enjoy this.

Oh, never mind.  Continue on with your broad-brush judgments based on severely limited information.

Edited March 1, 2016 by ttribe

[mnn727]

Resignations are good for both parties.

1. it releases a non-believing  person from the Covenants they have made that they are no longer following.

2. it removes inactive people from the roles - especially good for the Home and Visit teaching rolls  wasting time\effort\resources trying to find and contact people who don't want contact and who refuse visits.

[Kenngo1969]

I don't necessarily agree with CountryBoy's characterization of citizens from my home state.  (I am the President of D*** Utah Mormons (tm), after all! ;))  That said, if he's persuaded a judge to allow evidence of that character to be presented and has persuaded a jury to believe it, more power to him.  Still, there are, as others have pointed out, certain problems with it in an empirical sense, and if I were across the aisle from him in court, I'm quite certain I would object to its introduction; and if I were a judge, I'm fairly certain that I wouldn't allow it to be presented (just as, e.g., I think Judge Ito allowed all kinds of things to go on in the first O.J. Simpson trial that I would not have stood for.)

That's prelude to my mention that I've now had my second OTB interaction (in this context "OTB" stands for "Off The Board", not Off-Track Betting, in case you were wondering ) with a member of this Board (both of them, ironically, were with attorneys, the first being with Smac97 a few years ago).  True, one such interaction does not a relationship make, neither interaction was face-to-face, and I do have limited evidence from which to reach such conclusions, but both of them, notwithstanding my limited exposure, and notwithstanding their choice of profession , seem to be fine, upstanding gentlemen.  

Disagreement, drawn rhetorical swords, and rhetorical six-shooters at twenty paces among people cloaked in the relative anonymity of Cyberspace and screen names is one thing.  But let's not forget, amid all of the bloodletting of these knock-down-drag-out rhetorical battles over such incredibly important things (  ), that there are real, live, flesh-and-blood human beings at those keyboards and behind those screen names.

[Kenngo1969]

38 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Oh, never mind.  Continue on with your broad-brush judgments based on limited information.

I agree with you, ttribe.  As I state above, empirically, I find certain problems with CountryBoy's "evidence" in this "case."  If he tried to introduce it in court, I would object to it if I were an opposing attorney; and if I were a judge, I'm fairly certain I wouldn't allow it to be presented.  On the other hand, if he's been successful in overcoming any objections by opposing counsel and in persuading another judge to allow it, more power to him.  That doesn't mean that you and I have to agree; but perhaps we can live and let live.

[ALarson]

31 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I don't necessarily agree with CountryBoy's characterization of citizens from my home state.  (I am the President of D*** Utah Mormons (tm), after all! ;))  That said, if he's persuaded a judge to allow evidence of that character to be presented and has persuaded a jury to believe it, more power to him.  Still, there are, as others have pointed out, certain problems with it in an empirical sense, and if I were across the aisle from him in court, I'm quite certain I would object to its introduction; and if I were a judge, I'm fairly certain that I wouldn't allow it to be presented (just as, e.g., I think Judge Ito allowed all kinds of things to go on in the first O.J. Simpson trial that I would not have stood for.)

That's prelude to my mention that I've now had my second OTB interaction (in this context "OTB" stands for "Off The Board", not Off-Track Betting, in case you were wondering ) with a member of this Board (both of them, ironically, were with attorneys, the first being with Smac97 a few years ago).  True, one such interaction does not a relationship make, neither interaction was face-to-face, and I do have limited evidence from which to reach such conclusions, but both of them, notwithstanding my limited exposure, and notwithstanding their choice of profession , seem to be fine, upstanding gentlemen.  

Disagreement, drawn rhetorical swords, and rhetorical six-shooters at twenty paces among people cloaked in the relative anonymity of Cyberspace and screen names is one thing.  But let's not forget, amid all of the bloodletting of these knock-down-drag-out rhetorical battles over such incredibly important things (  ), that there are real, live, flesh-and-blood human beings at those keyboards and behind those screen names.

Great post, Kenngo!

I have seen two different sides to CountryBoy here (and now I know a little bit more about his history....not a lot....but more than when we started our discussion).  I'm sure he's a very decent guy.  This is my first time interacting with him much (IIRC).  

I just come to member's defense when they've made a personal decision and are criticized or called weak because they did it differently than the person attacking them.  I just think we need to respect a member's right to resign how they choose to resign.

,

Edited March 1, 2016 by ALarson

[USU78]

3 hours ago, ALarson said:

4 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

4 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I agree with you, ttribe.  As I state above, empirically, I find certain problems with CountryBoy's "evidence" in this "case."  If he tried to introduce it in court, I would object to it if I were an opposing attorney; and if I were a judge, I'm fairly certain I wouldn't allow it to be presented.  On the other hand, if he's been successful in overcoming any objections by opposing counsel and in persuading another judge to allow it, more power to him.  That doesn't mean that you and I have to agree; but perhaps we can live and let live.

I don't necessarily agree with CountryBoy's characterization of citizens from my home state.  (I am the President of D*** Utah Mormons (tm), after all! ;))  That said, if he's persuaded a judge to allow evidence of that character to be presented and has persuaded a jury to believe it, more power to him.  Still, there are, as others have pointed out, certain problems with it in an empirical sense, and if I were across the aisle from him in court, I'm quite certain I would object to its introduction; and if I were a judge, I'm fairly certain that I wouldn't allow it to be presented (just as, e.g., I think Judge Ito allowed all kinds of things to go on in the first O.J. Simpson trial that I would not have stood for.)

That's prelude to my mention that I've now had my second OTB interaction (in this context "OTB" stands for "Off The Board", not Off-Track Betting, in case you were wondering ) with a member of this Board (both of them, ironically, were with attorneys, the first being with Smac97 a few years ago).  True, one such interaction does not a relationship make, neither interaction was face-to-face, and I do have limited evidence from which to reach such conclusions, but both of them, notwithstanding my limited exposure, and notwithstanding their choice of profession , seem to be fine, upstanding gentlemen.  

Disagreement, drawn rhetorical swords, and rhetorical six-shooters at twenty paces among people cloaked in the relative anonymity of Cyberspace and screen names is one thing.  But let's not forget, amid all of the bloodletting of these knock-down-drag-out rhetorical battles over such incredibly important things (  ), that there are real, live, flesh-and-blood human beings at those keyboards and behind those screen names.

Great post, Kenngo!

I have seen two different sides to CountryBoy here (and now I know a little bit more about his history....not a lot....but more than when we started our discussion).  I'm sure he's a very decent guy.  This is my first time interacting with him much (IIRC).  

I just come to member's defense when they've made a personal decision and are criticized or called weak because they did it differently than the person attacking them.  I just think we need to respect a member's right to resign how they choose to resign.

,

I just wanted to let you all know that, as an attorney having been in this miserable business since 1984, I have no choice but to agree with CountryBoy.  There are a lot of miserable, nasty things that go on in the practice, and there are a lot of miserable, nasty people engaged in the practice.  This guy's religio-political gamesmanship, when viewed under the lens of cui bono, leads to one and only one conclusion.

[Calm]

4 hours ago, mnn727 said:

Resignations are good for both parties....

If they are done for the right reasons I agree, though I am saddened by what they represent.

[Scott Lloyd]

15 hours ago, ttribe said:

Well that's totally different from what CB is going on about and I don't disagree with you about some of the cultural elements unique to living in Utah...fry-sauce being chief among them.

Now let's not go ragging on fry sauce.

At the Lloyd household, we buy mayo and ketchup by the gross from Costco, just because we mix so much of it together. The kids eat fry sauce on most everything.

When Bruce Lindsey retired from KSL-TV and they brought in a couple of out-of-towners to replace him as news anchor, the station did a piece exposing these guys to fry sauce as part of the Utah culture and getting their reaction to it. Their reaction was negative and, I thought, unduly vehement.

I'm sure the producers of the piece thought it would be a fun, light-hearted way to introduce the newcomers to the market. But it took me a long time as a viewer to warm up to those guys after that.

[Calm]

You can get fry sauce in lots of places (it is not that complicated of a recipe) though probably the most commonly known in the US orginated in Utah:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fry_sauce

[ALarson]

12 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Now let's not go ragging on fry sauce.

At the Lloyd household, we buy mayo and ketchup by the gross from Costco, just because we mix so much of it together. 

Hey!  Something we can agree on  

I haven't lived in Utah for years, but I still make it and love it on burgers and fries.  Much better than straight ketchup!!!

[ttribe]

 

17 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Now let's not go ragging on fry sauce.

At the Lloyd household, we buy mayo and ketchup by the gross from Costco, just because we mix so much of it together. The kids eat fry sauce on most everything.

When Bruce Lindsey retired from KSL-TV and they brought in a couple of out-of-towners to replace him as news anchor, the station did a piece exposing these guys to fry sauce as part of the Utah culture and getting their reaction to it. Their reaction was negative and, I thought, unduly vehement.

I'm sure the producers of the piece thought it would be a fun, light-hearted way to introduce the newcomers to the market. But it took me a long time as a viewer to warm up to those guys after that.

 

7 minutes ago, Calm said:

You can get fry sauce in lots of places (it is not that complicated of a recipe) though probably the most commonly known in the US orginated in Utah:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fry_sauce

 

3 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Hey!  Something we can agree on  

I haven't lived in Utah for years, but I still make it and love it on burgers and fries.  Much better than straight ketchup!!!

[Scott Lloyd]

18 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Hey!  Something we can agree on  

I haven't lived in Utah for years, but I still make it and love it on burgers and fries.  Much better than straight ketchup!!!

One of my fond memories from childhood is my earliest exposure to fry sauce. We could get it at Chub's Drive-in in south Sandy (no longer there; it's now a bakery). They called it "magic sauce." I soon learned that the Arctic Circle chain (who claims to have invented it) also had it.

It is a perpetual source of pride to me that I soon discovered through my own intuition that if I mixed mayo and ketchup together, I could get fry sauce.

Furthermore, fry sauce and Thousand Island salad dressing are pretty much the same thing. In fact, at Crown Burger in Salt Lake City, if you order fry sauce and if you order Thousand Island dressing, you'll get the self-same substance.

Edited March 1, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[Calm]

My husband is inordinately proud of fry sauce though we never actually bought any until recently that I remember.

One of the mysteries of life.  Like poutine.