ttribe Posted March 1, 2016 Posted March 1, 2016 31 minutes ago, CountryBoy said: If that is true what you do, then you truly had no right to make your comments. You ask my "sample" group? 6500 who hired an attorney along with those here who defend it. To me, that is a sufficient sample. I am amazed that you would not think so. Oh really? All those people live in Utah? That would be new information to me. Let's do some math, though. First, let's assume you are correct and all 6500 were in Utah, the current population of which is 2.943 million. That means these 6500 people represent .26%. This "sample" also wasn't random, which further renders extremely suspect how much it represents the population. Do you really want to keep doing this? BTW, I believe we were talking about the sample of people on this board who have responded to you as being the Utah people, not the 6500. Please don't conflate the evidence, counselor.
UtahTexan Posted March 1, 2016 Posted March 1, 2016 6 minutes ago, ttribe said: Oh really? All those people live in Utah? That would be new information to me. Let's do some math, though. First, let's assume you are correct and all 6500 were in Utah, the current population of which is 2.943 million. That means these 6500 people represent .26%. This "sample" also wasn't random, which further renders extremely suspect how much it represents the population. Do you really want to keep doing this? BTW, I believe we were talking about the sample of people on this board who have responded to you as being the Utah people, not the 6500. Please don't conflate the evidence, counselor. I was talking about the board...and this thread is part of it. And I have been trying cases for 26 years. This sample would be allowed in a trial and subject to cross examination. I was happy with the sample. I have won trials on less. All your board posting will not change what I have done in court....but...on a board, it is certainly cute;
mfbukowski Posted March 1, 2016 Posted March 1, 2016 11 hours ago, california boy said: Why are members of the church going on for pages about how these former members are resigning instead of worrying about why they are resigning. Don't shoot the messenger. It is hardly this attorneys fault people are resigning. I think it is obvious why they are resigning if indeed they are That is their business if they want to do that, and there is not much that can be done about it/ If you do not believe in the church, you resign. Good for them! What alternative would you suggest? 3
mfbukowski Posted March 1, 2016 Posted March 1, 2016 5 hours ago, CountryBoy said: It's obvious that you believe anyone who didn't exit the church as you did, is doing it wrong. Not true. I would think that anyone who needs help leaving any Church is weak. It is too easy to do. It has nothing to do with "doing it like i did' But, I am becoming more understanding...you are teachin g me that folks from Utah are simply not as independent. Not as strong. I was unaware of that till you explained it to me. But many may believe how you did it feels wrong (not caring that your leaders excommunicated you). That could be seen as weak by some for not standing up for yourself and for just allowing your leaders to do that. You just have no understanding. They were no longer my leaders the day I quit. I did not "allow them" to do anything. They were not my leaders anymore. Using this attorney just gives members another option or choice when resigning. That's it. Options? lol. Just quit. Its easy It's a personal choice. Members should be given the respect to make that choice without calling them names. I have not called them names. I have said they are weak Bravissimo!! 1
mfbukowski Posted March 1, 2016 Posted March 1, 2016 4 hours ago, flameburns623 said: Doctrine and Covenants 81:5 5 Wherefore, be faithful; stand in the office which I have appointed unto you; succor the weak, lift up the hands which hang down, and strengthen the feeble knees. Not applicable at all. You got it 180 degress off. The scripture is about helping people who are weak in testimony, and bring them closer to Christ. Here we are talking about people who do NOT believe in Christ, yet stay in the church because they are do not have enough courage to stand up for their beliefs, and so end up pretending to be righteous. They are more like the pharisees, hypocrites who do not believe yet pretend to do so, and lead others away from Christ. You know, whited sepulchers and all that?? 2
UtahTexan Posted March 1, 2016 Posted March 1, 2016 Just now, mfbukowski said: Not applicable at all. You got it 180 degress off. The scripture is about helping people who are weak in testimony, and bring them closer to Christ. Here we are talking about people who do NOT believe in Christ, yet stay in the church because they are do not have enough courage to stand up for their beliefs, and so end up pretending to be righteous. They are more like the pharisees, hypocrites who do not believe yet pretend to do so, and lead others away from Christ. You know, whited sepulchers and all that?? Excellent point
ALarson Posted March 1, 2016 Posted March 1, 2016 10 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Here we are talking about people who do NOT believe in Christ, yet stay in the church because they are do not have enough courage to stand up for their beliefs, and so end up pretending to be righteous. They are more like the pharisees, hypocrites who do not believe yet pretend to do so, and lead others away from Christ. You know, whited sepulchers and all that?? Which "people" are you referring to? Those who are resigning?
mfbukowski Posted March 1, 2016 Posted March 1, 2016 1 minute ago, ALarson said: Which "people" are you referring to? Those who are resigning? Those who do not believe and yet remain in the church as critics under assumed names posting right here. Know anyone like that? If you don't believe, you should have the guts to walk. 2
ALarson Posted March 1, 2016 Posted March 1, 2016 (edited) 14 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Those who do not believe and yet remain in the church as critics under assumed names posting right here. Know anyone like that? If you don't believe, you should have the guts to walk. I know several right in my own ward (and a few in my immediate family). People stay in the church for a variety of reasons (including family, friends and social activity). And, you can still believe in Christ even if you do not believe the Mormon church is true. Many remain because of the good Christian values taught. They are wonderful, good people even though they no longer believe that the church is the only true church. None that I know have to "pretend to be righteous". It's not up to you to judge or call them names....bottom line. . Edited March 1, 2016 by ALarson 2
mfbukowski Posted March 1, 2016 Posted March 1, 2016 7 minutes ago, ALarson said: I know several right in my own ward (and a few in my immediate family). People stay in the church for a variety of reasons (including family, friends and social activity). And, you can believe in Christ even if you do not believe the Mormon church is true. Many remain because of the good Christian values taught. They are wonderful, good people even though they no longer believe that the church is the only true church. None that I know have to "pretend to be righteous". It's not up to you to judge or call them names....bottom line. . Of course, I did not do that. I was talking about posers who are members but come here and criticize the church. I mentioned no names, all I did is quote scripture. Jesus himself called such people hypocrites- was he calling someone a "name"? If so, then so be it. I judge no one, It is perfectly obvious when someone is a liar and professes one belief and attacks the same set of beliefs under a false name. I too have lied in my life. Probably all have lied out of weakness, but it is still lying out of weakness. It is hypocrisy. I am a sinner too, I judge no one- but I know a liar when I see one. It is up to God to judge liars, not me. I hope he is merciful to me for my lies and hypocrisy. I cannot seem to get over my anger for such people, and for that I am sure I deserve God's judgement. Bottom line.
UtahTexan Posted March 1, 2016 Posted March 1, 2016 14 minutes ago, ALarson said: I know several right in my own ward (and a few in my immediate family). People stay in the church for a variety of reasons (including family, friends and social activity). And, you can still believe in Christ even if you do not believe the Mormon church is true. Many remain because of the good Christian values taught. They are wonderful, good people even though they no longer believe that the church is the only true church. None that I know have to "pretend to be righteous". It's not up to you to judge or call them names....bottom line. . If I read MFB correctly, his comments were not about folks who have lost faith and stay in for various reasons...but to those who stay in for various reasons and come here to criticize the Church. Big difference between the two different groups...if you wish to criticize, then leave. That is not to say that there can't be some constructive "complaints" but we can tell between that and bashing. 1
ALarson Posted March 1, 2016 Posted March 1, 2016 1 minute ago, mfbukowski said: Of course, I did not do that. I was talking about posers who are members but come here and criticize the church. I mentioned no names, all I did is quote scripture. Jesus himself called such people hypocrites- was he calling someone a "name"? If so, then so be it. I judge no one, It is perfectly obvious when someone is a liar and professes one belief and attacks the same set of beliefs under a false name. I too have lied in my life. Probably all have lied out of weakness, but it is still lying out of weakness. It is hypocrisy. I am a sinner too, I judge no one- but I know a liar when I see one. It is up to God to judge liars, not me. I hope he is merciful to me for my lies and hypocrisy. I cannot seem to get over my anger for such people, and for that I am sure I deserve God's judgement. Bottom line. Well, I really haven't seen anyone on here who is "pretending" or who is a "poser". Maybe I'm missing something or you know more people on here than I do (highly likely). I usually just give people the benefit of the doubt and figure what I see is what I get with them (that's how I am, so I assume the same from others). If you want to know what I believe, I'll answer honestly. As far as sinning....hey, we're all sinners. No one is perfect here. I just really believe that when a member gets to the point where they desire to turn in their resignation, it's a personal decision. No one should be telling another person that they "need" to resign. And, how they choose to go about resigning is also a personal decision. Whether they go in and talk to their Bishop or utilize this attorney's service (if they are not comfortable talking to their local leaders) is fine either way and not up to me to call them weak or cowards for choosing that avenue.
ALarson Posted March 1, 2016 Posted March 1, 2016 (edited) 17 minutes ago, CountryBoy said: If I read MFB correctly, his comments were not about folks who have lost faith and stay in for various reasons...but to those who stay in for various reasons and come here to criticize the Church. Big difference between the two different groups...if you wish to criticize, then leave. That is not to say that there can't be some constructive "complaints" but we can tell between that and bashing. Yes, I see that's who he was referring to now. I actually like this board because it's not an echo chamber. There are all types of opinions, discussions and even different types and strengths of testimonies here. I see no real anti-Mormons here. Some no longer believe at all and some do have anger (on both sides of the fence). Thanks for the info... . Edited March 1, 2016 by ALarson 1
Okrahomer Posted March 1, 2016 Posted March 1, 2016 3 minutes ago, ALarson said: As far as sinning....hey, we're all sinners. No one is perfect here. I don't know... I think Calm, Garden Girl, Rain (and a few others) are perfect...or at least very close. 1
ALarson Posted March 1, 2016 Posted March 1, 2016 Just now, Okrahomer said: I don't know... I think Calm, Garden Girl, Rain (and a few others) are perfect...or at least very close. Ha! Calm is pretty incredible and Garden Girl seems like a very gentle soul (I enjoy reading their posts). I'm not that familiar with Rain...but if you group them with Calm and Garden Girl, they're in great company! 1
mfbukowski Posted March 1, 2016 Posted March 1, 2016 2 minutes ago, ALarson said: And, how they choose to go about resigning is also a personal decision. Whether they go in and talk to their Bishop or utilize this attorney's service (if they are not comfortable talking to their local leaders) is fine either way and not up to me to call them weak or cowards for choosing that avenue. I don't care about that- the method they use to resign- nor have I said I did. And as has been said, if they are uncomfortable talking to their leaders, they better give it a second thought because they are still regarding them as "leaders" which probably means they are not yet ready to leave. When I left Catholicism, it was because I did not believe. I felt no need to speak to anyone- I just stopped going and believing. I tell you when I disagree with you, and I have no clue who you are. For all I know you could be my "leader". I put a lot of value in speaking my mind. But if they do not want to do that, there is not much I can do to strengthen them. 2
ttribe Posted March 1, 2016 Posted March 1, 2016 1 hour ago, CountryBoy said: I was talking about the board...and this thread is part of it. And I have been trying cases for 26 years. This sample would be allowed in a trial and subject to cross examination. I was happy with the sample. I have won trials on less. All your board posting will not change what I have done in court....but...on a board, it is certainly cute; I'm not commenting on what you "have done in court." I'm only commenting on you passing judgment on the population of an entire state based on a small sample here on a backwater Internet message board; that's it. You're the one who took the discussion off on these weird tangents.
UtahTexan Posted March 1, 2016 Posted March 1, 2016 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Okrahomer said: I don't know... I think Calm, Garden Girl, Rain (and a few others) are perfect...or at least very close. naaa....not Garden Girl.....she is my cousin...I know better (just kidding, Cuz) Edited March 1, 2016 by CountryBoy 2
ALarson Posted March 1, 2016 Posted March 1, 2016 2 minutes ago, CountryBoy said: naaa....not Garden Girl.....she is my cousin...I know better Hmmmm "Garden Girl" and "CountryBoy"....did you guys plan that?
Calm Posted March 1, 2016 Posted March 1, 2016 13 minutes ago, Okrahomer said: I don't know... I think Calm, Garden Girl, Rain (and a few others) are perfect...or at least very close. 1
ALarson Posted March 1, 2016 Posted March 1, 2016 (edited) 9 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: I don't care about that- the method they use to resign- nor have I said I did. And as has been said, if they are uncomfortable talking to their leaders, they better give it a second thought because they are still regarding them as "leaders" which probably means they are not yet ready to leave. When I left Catholicism, it was because I did not believe. I felt no need to speak to anyone- I just stopped going and believing. I tell you when I disagree with you, and I have no clue who you are. For all I know you could be my "leader". I put a lot of value in speaking my mind. But if they do not want to do that, there is not much I can do to strengthen them. Well, some have been very critical on this thread of anyone who is using this attorney (I see that's not you now). I really feel if someone is ready to resign, they should (for whatever reasons and however they choose to resign). Also, there are many reasons someone would not want to discuss it with their leaders (they may not even know them or have met them...or they may have a past history with them, or any variety of reasons). And, I like how you speak your mind and enjoy reading what you write here. I like to know where someone stands and what they believe. . Edited March 1, 2016 by ALarson
UtahTexan Posted March 1, 2016 Posted March 1, 2016 6 minutes ago, ttribe said: I'm not commenting on what you "have done in court." I'm only commenting on you passing judgment on the population of an entire state based on a small sample here on a backwater Internet message board; that's it. You're the one who took the discussion off on these weird tangents. I am making judgments based on what I have read....on this thread...and the fact that I made my comments about lack of independence....and only one person sorta contradicted my judgment....by asking me not to paint too broadly.......no insults. I am not sure how many cases you have tried as an attorney...and how often you have examined and cross-examined witnesses.....and how often you have admitted evidence into court......but I have been doing it for a long time. Your comments to me as me being an attorney and questioning my judgment were out of line and I have defended as the attorney you challenged. And my comments were not on weird tangents, but responding to an attorney making claims about 6500 people.
UtahTexan Posted March 1, 2016 Posted March 1, 2016 6 minutes ago, ALarson said: Hmmmm "Garden Girl" and "CountryBoy"....did you guys plan that? funny thing is....we had no idea we were related until we happen to talk on the phone. She said she felt drawn to me.....we had no idea.......we had messaged for several weeks before we discovered the relation......odd, huh? 3
Okrahomer Posted March 1, 2016 Posted March 1, 2016 3 minutes ago, ALarson said: Hmmmm "Garden Girl" and "CountryBoy"....did you guys plan that? You'll have to go deep into the "I Am so Torn" thread to read how this relationship was discovered. It's one of the more remarkable stories of this board. 4
Kenngo1969 Posted March 1, 2016 Posted March 1, 2016 Country Boy: I tried to send you a PM, but no joy. I have the next couple days off if you want to get together some time. Thx, -Ken
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