3,000 Year old Wheel Discovered...No Not Nephite

[thesometimesaint]

35 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Really?  You pulled the sophistry card?  You can do better than that

I'm trying very hard to remain kind.

BTW If 3,000 years from now some archaeologist was digging in North America it is very unlikely that they'd find buggy whips. However 120 years ago they were very common.

[Kevin Christensen]

It would help if people did a little homework.

Question: In what context are chariots mentioned in the Book of Mormon?

The Book of Mormon mentions "chariots," which one assumes to be a wheeled vehicle. It is also claimed that no draft animals existed in the New World to pull such chariots. It should be remembered that chariots do not play a major role in the Book of Mormon. They are mentioned in the following contexts:

Quotations from Old World scriptures

• 2 Nephi 12:7 - citation from Isaiah
• 2 Nephi 15:28 - citation from Isaiah

Apocalyptic teachings in Old World style

• 3 Nephi 21:14 - Jesus speaks of "horses and chariots" in a symbolic and apocalyptic address

Used in conjunction with horses

• Alma 18:9 - Ammon feeds the Lamanite king's horses, which are associated with his "chariots."
• Alma 20:6 - Lamanite king uses horses and chariot for visit to neighboring kingdom
• 3 Nephi 3:22 - Nephites "had taken their horses, and their chariots" to a central fortified area for protection against robbers

(It should be noted that we are not told if these chariots served a purpose in riding, or if they were for transport of goods, or if they had a ceremonial function. One assumes some sort of practicality or ritual importance in war, since they brought chariots to the siege.)

Conspicuously absent is any role of the chariot in the many journeys recorded in the Book of Mormon. Nor do horses or chariots play any role in the many Nephite wars; this is in stark contrast to the Biblical account, in which the chariots of Egypt, Babylon, and the Philistines are feared super-weapons upon the plains of Israel.

From FAIRMormon:  http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Anachronisms/Chariots

There is more. Incidentally, the word translated as chariot in Hebrew simply means "riding thing."

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

[Meadowchik]

22 minutes ago, Kevin Christensen said:

It would help if people did a little homework.

Question: In what context are chariots mentioned in the Book of Mormon?

The Book of Mormon mentions "chariots," which one assumes to be a wheeled vehicle. It is also claimed that no draft animals existed in the New World to pull such chariots. It should be remembered that chariots do not play a major role in the Book of Mormon. They are mentioned in the following contexts:

Quotations from Old World scriptures

• 2 Nephi 12:7 - citation from Isaiah
• 2 Nephi 15:28 - citation from Isaiah

Apocalyptic teachings in Old World style

• 3 Nephi 21:14 - Jesus speaks of "horses and chariots" in a symbolic and apocalyptic address

Used in conjunction with horses

• Alma 18:9 - Ammon feeds the Lamanite king's horses, which are associated with his "chariots."
• Alma 20:6 - Lamanite king uses horses and chariot for visit to neighboring kingdom
• 3 Nephi 3:22 - Nephites "had taken their horses, and their chariots" to a central fortified area for protection against robbers

(It should be noted that we are not told if these chariots served a purpose in riding, or if they were for transport of goods, or if they had a ceremonial function. One assumes some sort of practicality or ritual importance in war, since they brought chariots to the siege.)

Conspicuously absent is any role of the chariot in the many journeys recorded in the Book of Mormon. Nor do horses or chariots play any role in the many Nephite wars; this is in stark contrast to the Biblical account, in which the chariots of Egypt, Babylon, and the Philistines are feared super-weapons upon the plains of Israel.

From FAIRMormon:  http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Anachronisms/Chariots

There is more. Incidentally, the word translated as chariot in Hebrew simply means "riding thing."

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

Yup one could visualize some kind of elaborate saddle used to facilitate riding or carrying goods,  but without touching the ground. 

[CV75]

[Guest]

I find that wheel or horse is mentioned at all, since every battle and distance mentioned in the Book of Mormon is measure on foot. 

[Brant Gardner]

6 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

One thing I've never had an apologist explain is how exactly does a culture "forget" the obviously beneficial benefits of the Wheel in their culture?  

Try Jared Diamond, Guns, Germs, and Steel. He discusses several places where there were important innovations that were later forgotten by the same people who once had them. It isn't uncommon. Of course, Diamond isn't an apologist--that should make him an even better source to answer your question.

Please note, however, that I am not suggesting that there were wheeled chariots. My position is that it is an artifact of translation. I am simply responding to the issue of forgotten technologies.

 

[The Nehor]

9 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Not at all... because a 3,000 year old wheel has survived 3,000 years, it should be possible for a 2,000 year old Nephite wheel to have survived in the America's (if one ever existed)

Well then go find it. What are you waiting for?

[The Nehor]

7 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

One thing I've never had an apologist explain is how exactly does a culture "forget" the obviously beneficial benefits of the Wheel in their culture?  Why would Nephi and Company merely walk away from the wheel? And why would Joseph Smith insert Chariots in to his Book of Mormon...when these vehicles did not exist within Nephite culture

Can you get me some Greek fire, some authentic Damascus steel, and the recipe for Roman cement. All were very useful so I am sure they could never be lost.

Thanks.

[mfbukowski]

10 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Despite mentioning the word chariot in the Book of Mormon many times the word Wheel is never mentioned at all.  This has led some apologists to make assertions and apologetic theories to explain this lack of evidence for a wheeled vehicle of any kind in the Pre-Columbian America.

 

01. Wheels are there, we just haven't found one yet.

02. Wheels were there, but over time due to being wood they've decomposed and so we wouldn't expect to find a 2,000+ year old Nephite wheel. 

and

03. Joseph used the word chariot but he meant something quite different,  a Travois a wheelless means of native American transportation. So we should never expect to find Ancient American wheels

 

Well folks we can now cross Theory #2 off the list...a 3,000 year old wheel has been discovered...unfortunatly for LDS apologetics it was discovered intact in England

Equally interesting at least to me is the fact that the archeologists discovered the skeleton of a horse near by...thus confirming that wheeled vehicles often had horses near by similar to the Book of Mormon claim

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-35598578

 

 

 

Here is an un-exhaustive list of the use of the word Chariot in the Book of Mormon

2 Nephi 12:7

Their land also is full of silver and gold, neither is there any end of their treasures; their land is also full of horses, neither is there any end of their chariots. 

Alma 18:10

...king Lamoni heard that Ammon was preparing his horses and his chariots he was more astonished, because of the faithfulness of Ammon, saying: Surely there has not been any servant among all my servants that has been so faithful as this man; for even he doth remember all my commandments to... 

Alma 18:12

And it came to pass that when Ammon had made ready the horses and the chariots for the king and his servants, he went in unto the king, and he saw that the countenance of the king was changed; therefore he was about to return out of his presence. 

3 Nephi 21:14

Yea, wo be unto the Gentiles except they repent; for it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Father, that I will cut off thy horses out of the midst of thee, and I will destroy thy chariots; 

Alma 18:9

...feeding thy horses. Now the king had commanded his servants, previous to the time of the watering of their flocks, that they should prepare his horses and chariots, and conduct him forth to the land of Nephi; for there had been a great feast appointed at the land of Nephi, by the father of... 

3 Nephi 3:22

...proclamation of Lachoneus had gone forth throughout all the face of the land, and they had taken their horses, and their chariots, and their cattle, and all their flocks, and their herds, and their grain, and all their substance, and did march forth by thousands and by tens of thousands, until... 

 

 

Oh gosh dude, really?

Sigh.  History has nothing to do with spiritual knowledge.

We have been over chariots many times here and wheels.   google "ancient mexico wheeled toys" anyway if it makes you feel better.

And then there is standard answer 118761  

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Anachronisms/Chariots

In fact I would suggest that you go to Fairmormon as a matter of practice and at least come here with a statement of how bad the argument is so we have something to talk about

Edited February 20, 2016 by mfbukowski

[omni]

1 hour ago, Brant Gardner said:

Try Jared Diamond, Guns, Germs, and Steel. He discusses several places where there were important innovations that were later forgotten by the same people who once had them. It isn't uncommon. Of course, Diamond isn't an apologist--that should make him an even better source to answer your question.

Please note, however, that I am not suggesting that there were wheeled chariots. My position is that it is an artifact of translation. I am simply responding to the issue of forgotten technologies.

 

I too would suggest everyone here read Guns, Germs, and Steel, but probably for different reasons.

[omni]

9 hours ago, longview said:

According to the article, the roundhous(es) was/were built on stilts over the bank of the river.  Suggesting to me that it was used as a dock operation.  The article states that there was a fire which caused the whole edifice to collapse to the bottom of the river.  Then all the timbers (including the wheel) were covered by the silt of the river.  Thus enabling the long term preservation.

If both the Jaredite and Nephite civilizations were centered in Central America, what are the chances of wood being being able to withstand the decomposing effect of jungle climate or infestation by insects (including termites)?  What about the weapons, both metallic and wooden?  What were the ages of the oldest relics?  How were they preserved?

It's not just the lack of actual wheels, but the absence of ancient paintings or figurines depicting the chariots that should cause concern.

[thesometimesaint]

3 hours ago, omni said:

It's not just the lack of actual wheels, but the absence of ancient paintings or figurines depicting the chariots that should cause concern.

We have actual wheels on figurines from Mesoamerica. While we find them useful the terrain and undergrowth of much of Mesoamerica doesn't allow for extensive use of the wheel.

Edited February 20, 2016 by thesometimesaint

[omni]

6 hours ago, thesometimesaint said:

We have actual wheels on figurines from Mesoamerica. While we find them useful the terrain and undergrowth of much of Mesoamerica doesn't allow for extensive use of the wheel.

The wheeled figurines are quite different than chariots.  One would expect to find at least some images of chariots in pre-Colombian art. 

Just as with horses, it isn't the lack of horse bones, as much as the complete lack of any reference to horses found in pre-Columbian art and writings.   One can find images and figurines of practically every other major animal, however horses,  one of the most important animals in human history, are conspicuously missing. 

[carbon dioxide]

23 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Despite mentioning the word chariot in the Book of Mormon many times the word Wheel is never mentioned at all.  This has led some apologists to make assertions and apologetic theories to explain this lack of evidence for a wheeled vehicle of any kind in the Pre-Columbian America.

01. Wheels are there, we just haven't found one yet.

02. Wheels were there, but over time due to being wood they've decomposed and so we wouldn't expect to find a 2,000+ year old Nephite wheel. 

and

03. Joseph used the word chariot but he meant something quite different,  a Travois a wheelless means of native American transportation. So we should never expect to find Ancient American wheels

 

Well folks we can now cross Theory #2 off the list...a 3,000 year old wheel has been discovered...unfortunatly for LDS apologetics it was discovered intact in England

Equally interesting at least to me is the fact that the archeologists discovered the skeleton of a horse near by...thus confirming that wheeled vehicles often had horses near by similar to the Book of Mormon claim

I would not draw this conclusion.  It depends I guess on the type of wood used and the climate.  Also the number of wheels produced.  The fewer wheels produced, the less a chance that one would survive over this time period.

[carbon dioxide]

12 hours ago, omni said:

It's not just the lack of actual wheels, but the absence of ancient paintings or figurines depicting the chariots that should cause concern.

Because there are extensive paintings that exist from that time period and if a chariot or two existed in some form, somebody would have made a painting of that.  If nobody painted it, it must not have existed.

[omni]

42 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

Because there are extensive paintings that exist from that time period and if a chariot or two existed in some form, somebody would have made a painting of that.  If nobody painted it, it must not have existed.

Actually there's quite a bit of art from that time, once again no chariots.  Sure, it's possible we just haven't found them yet, and that the wheel, generally considered one of the most important inventions of all time, fell out of use, and that horses, one of the most useful animals, went extinct.  But what are the chances?

[thesometimesaint]

3 hours ago, omni said:

The wheeled figurines are quite different than chariots.  One would expect to find at least some images of chariots in pre-Colombian art. 

Just as with horses, it isn't the lack of horse bones, as much as the complete lack of any reference to horses found in pre-Columbian art and writings.   One can find images and figurines of practically every other major animal, however horses,  one of the most important animals in human history, are conspicuously missing. 

I said nothing about chariots. I said they knew about the wheel. Even if they had chariots why would they necessarily look anything like European/Middle Eastern chariots?

Why would horses be used exactly like they were in Europe/Middle East? Horses have long been used as a food source in Europe, and in very ancient North America. No doubt they are valuable/useful under some conditions, but not necessarily essential. The Inca didn't have horses, yet they built an empire without them.

[CV75]

Because this is how the Nephites conceptualized the wheel, it is difficult to interpret thw wheels that have been founds as "wheles"

[bcuzbcuz]

On 19 February 2016 at 4:56 PM, bluebell said:

Interesting article.  It appears that the wheel in the OP isn't the oldest every discovered, it's just the most complete.  Also, the article says that it was preserved by falling into a river and being covered with silt, after having been on fire.  I'm sure that doesn't happen every day.

Thanks for sharing.  I love archaeology.  

Well, no. Please re-read the article in reference to the fire.

[MDalby]

On 2/19/2016 at 9:57 AM, Johnnie Cake said:

Its a trap to make such a leap in logic.  Just because  A = B and B = C does not necessarily mean that that C would = A. To assert that because Ancient Americans put wheels on their toys does not mean that they put wheels on "other practical purposes" This is a logical fallacy.

Wow, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him think. 

[sunstoned]

12 hours ago, omni said:

The wheeled figurines are quite different than chariots.  One would expect to find at least some images of chariots in pre-Colombian art. 

Just as with horses, it isn't the lack of horse bones, as much as the complete lack of any reference to horses found in pre-Columbian art and writings.   One can find images and figurines of practically every other major animal, however horses,  one of the most important animals in human history, are conspicuously missing. 

This is true.  Horses change a culture, as would the smelting and use of metal.  None of this is present is America before the Spanish.  But once they came with their horses and steel, everything changed.  The horse was quickly adopted by native Americans as were metal tools and weapons.

[bluebell]

3 hours ago, bcuzbcuz said:

Well, no. Please re-read the article in reference to the fire.

I did. It said the wheel was found in the houses, which were built over the river and fell in after a fire. 

Did I miss something that said the wheel was preserved a different way?

[omni]

9 hours ago, thesometimesaint said:

I said nothing about chariots. I said they knew about the wheel. Even if they had chariots why would they necessarily look anything like European/Middle Eastern chariots?

Why would horses be used exactly like they were in Europe/Middle East? Horses have long been used as a food source in Europe, and in very ancient North America. No doubt they are valuable/useful under some conditions, but not necessarily essential. The Inca didn't have horses, yet they built an empire without them.

The Nephites would have had no need to "reinvent the wheel".   They were birthed from a culture very familiar with the wheel, horses, and chariots and would have been familiar with the many advantages they provided.  While their utility wouldn't have been identical to that of the Old World, certainly we could expect some similarities.  

While horses have been used as sources of food throughout Europe, the people have been wise enough to know you don't eat to extinction such a valuable animal.  Why would we not expect the same from other advanced civilizations living in the Americas?

[Johnnie Cake]

On February 20, 2016 at 5:42 PM, Brant Gardner said:

Try Jared Diamond, Guns, Germs, and Steel. He discusses several places where there were important innovations that were later forgotten by the same people who once had them. It isn't uncommon. Of course, Diamond isn't an apologist--that should make him an even better source to answer your question.

Please note, however, that I am not suggesting that there were wheeled chariots. My position is that it is an artifact of translation. I am simply responding to the issue of forgotten technologies.

 

Brant, I'm a big fan of Jared Diamonds work, I've read all his books, Guns, Germs and Steel 3 times...it was central to my loss of belief in Mormonism. Please help me, but do you remember where he stated this, I'm not saying he didn't, just can't remember him doing so

[rodheadlee]

On 2/19/2016 at 8:57 AM, Johnnie Cake said:

Its a trap to make such a leap in logic.  Just because  A = B and B = C does not necessarily mean that that C would = A. To assert that because Ancient Americans put wheels on their toys does not mean that they put wheels on "other practical purposes" This is a logical fallacy.

 Do you really believe they were that stupid? The builders of pyramids, aqua ducts and great cities couldn't envision their toys in a larger scale for practical use?