Johnnie Cake Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 (edited) Despite mentioning the word chariot in the Book of Mormon many times the word Wheel is never mentioned at all. This has led some apologists to make assertions and apologetic theories to explain this lack of evidence for a wheeled vehicle of any kind in the Pre-Columbian America. 01. Wheels are there, we just haven't found one yet. 02. Wheels were there, but over time due to being wood they've decomposed and so we wouldn't expect to find a 2,000+ year old Nephite wheel. and 03. Joseph used the word chariot but he meant something quite different, a Travois a wheelless means of native American transportation. So we should never expect to find Ancient American wheels Well folks we can now cross Theory #2 off the list...a 3,000 year old wheel has been discovered...unfortunatly for LDS apologetics it was discovered intact in England Equally interesting at least to me is the fact that the archeologists discovered the skeleton of a horse near by...thus confirming that wheeled vehicles often had horses near by similar to the Book of Mormon claim http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-35598578 Here is an un-exhaustive list of the use of the word Chariot in the Book of Mormon 2 Nephi 12:7 Their land also is full of silver and gold, neither is there any end of their treasures; their land is also full of horses, neither is there any end of their chariots. Alma 18:10 ...king Lamoni heard that Ammon was preparing his horses and his chariots he was more astonished, because of the faithfulness of Ammon, saying: Surely there has not been any servant among all my servants that has been so faithful as this man; for even he doth remember all my commandments to... Alma 18:12 And it came to pass that when Ammon had made ready the horses and the chariots for the king and his servants, he went in unto the king, and he saw that the countenance of the king was changed; therefore he was about to return out of his presence. 3 Nephi 21:14 Yea, wo be unto the Gentiles except they repent; for it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Father, that I will cut off thy horses out of the midst of thee, and I will destroy thy chariots; Alma 18:9 ...feeding thy horses. Now the king had commanded his servants, previous to the time of the watering of their flocks, that they should prepare his horses and chariots, and conduct him forth to the land of Nephi; for there had been a great feast appointed at the land of Nephi, by the father of... 3 Nephi 3:22 ...proclamation of Lachoneus had gone forth throughout all the face of the land, and they had taken their horses, and their chariots, and their cattle, and all their flocks, and their herds, and their grain, and all their substance, and did march forth by thousands and by tens of thousands, until... Edited February 19, 2016 by Johnnie Cake
stemelbow Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 Are you saying because a wheel was found in England there could not have been a wheel in the Americas at that time? hmmm... 1
Johnnie Cake Posted February 19, 2016 Author Posted February 19, 2016 3 minutes ago, stemelbow said: Are you saying because a wheel was found in England there could not have been a wheel in the Americas at that time? hmmm... Not at all... because a 3,000 year old wheel has survived 3,000 years, it should be possible for a 2,000 year old Nephite wheel to have survived in the America's (if one ever existed)
bluebell Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 Interesting article. It appears that the wheel in the OP isn't the oldest every discovered, it's just the most complete. Also, the article says that it was preserved by falling into a river and being covered with silt, after having been on fire. I'm sure that doesn't happen every day. Thanks for sharing. I love archaeology. 3
thesometimesaint Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 9 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: Not at all... because a 3,000 year old wheel has survived 3,000 years, it should be possible for a 2,000 year old Nephite wheel to have survived in the America's (if one ever existed) Did ancient Troy exist before we found it?
bluebell Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 4 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: Did ancient Troy exist before we found it? Many historians still don't believe it existed. This kind of stuff is far from a science.
thesometimesaint Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 8 minutes ago, bluebell said: Many historians still don't believe it existed. This kind of stuff is far from a science. I wouldn't go that far. There have been several Troy sites found in the appropriate area. The worst I can say is that we don't know exactly which one it is. SEE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troy
stemelbow Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 31 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: Not at all... because a 3,000 year old wheel has survived 3,000 years, it should be possible for a 2,000 year old Nephite wheel to have survived in the America's (if one ever existed) I think that's the point though. It's also possible that a 2,000 year old wheel is no longer to be found. 1
bluebell Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 7 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: I wouldn't go that far. There have been several Troy sites found in the appropriate area. The worst I can say is that we don't know exactly which one it is. SEE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troy Part of getting my history degree (in 2012) involved dissecting the different beliefs that historians held about Troy. Many don't believe it ever existed. And that's the fun of history! 2
JAHS Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 (edited) Wheeled toys have been found in the pre-columbian Americas. Although nothing has been found on a larger scale it seems to me if they put them on their toys they would have known they could use them for other practical purposes. THE WHEEL IN ANCIENT AMERICA Edited February 19, 2016 by JAHS 3
Johnnie Cake Posted February 19, 2016 Author Posted February 19, 2016 (edited) 39 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: Did ancient Troy exist before we found it? ha ha yes it did...as did the theory of the rippling of space time existed before we were able to detect and measure it, then it became fact... But what is different between Troy's existence and the claimed existence of the Nephite nation. There were multiple, independent threads of histories each claiming the existence of Troy, each iminating out from the people, histories and cultures of the area...while there is only one source claiming the existence of the Nephites, the Book of Mormon, with nothing to support its claims beyond the book itself. Edited February 19, 2016 by Johnnie Cake
stemelbow Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 5 minutes ago, JAHS said: Wheeled toys have been found in the pre-columbian Americas. Although nothing has been found on a larger scale it seems to me if they put them on their toys they would have know they could use them for other practical purpose THE WHEEL IN ANCIENT AMERICA I will say the critique of no wheels found thus BoM is not true is a pretty weak one among those arguments that are critical of the Book of Mormon.
longview Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 39 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: Not at all... because a 3,000 year old wheel has survived 3,000 years, it should be possible for a 2,000 year old Nephite wheel to have survived in the America's (if one ever existed) According to the article, the roundhous(es) was/were built on stilts over the bank of the river. Suggesting to me that it was used as a dock operation. The article states that there was a fire which caused the whole edifice to collapse to the bottom of the river. Then all the timbers (including the wheel) were covered by the silt of the river. Thus enabling the long term preservation. If both the Jaredite and Nephite civilizations were centered in Central America, what are the chances of wood being being able to withstand the decomposing effect of jungle climate or infestation by insects (including termites)? What about the weapons, both metallic and wooden? What were the ages of the oldest relics? How were they preserved?
Johnnie Cake Posted February 19, 2016 Author Posted February 19, 2016 12 minutes ago, JAHS said: Wheeled toys have been found in the pre-columbian Americas. Although nothing has been found on a larger scale it seems to me if they put them on their toys they would have know they could use them for other practical purpose THE WHEEL IN ANCIENT AMERICA Its a trap to make such a leap in logic. Just because A = B and B = C does not necessarily mean that that C would = A. To assert that because Ancient Americans put wheels on their toys does not mean that they put wheels on "other practical purposes" This is a logical fallacy.
thesometimesaint Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 The Mesoamericans obviously knew about the wheel. What has not yet been established is to what extent they used it. 1
JAHS Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 9 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: Its a trap to make such a leap in logic. Just because A = B and B = C does not necessarily mean that that C would = A. To assert that because Ancient Americans put wheels on their toys does not mean that they put wheels on "other practical purposes" This is a logical fallacy. Then they must have been really stupid not to use wheels for other reasons. The wheels on those toys were made out of clay, which of course would not be practical on larger vehicles. If the larger vehicles had wood wheels they would have decomposed long before now and we would not find them. 1
strappinglad Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 And Buzz Lightyear has lasers on his suit so that means there were lasers in regular life. Logical fallacy for sure. Oh wait... And the Easy-Bake Oven for kids means there were actual ovens in regular life. Logical fallacy for sure. Oh wait ... And Barbie dolls demonstrate there were real girls like that .Logical....oh wait.... you may have a point. 1
Johnnie Cake Posted February 19, 2016 Author Posted February 19, 2016 25 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: The Mesoamericans obviously knew about the wheel. What has not yet been established is to what extent they used it. Actually that has been established...they used the wheel on their toy...or what we interpret as a toy...we don't even really know if these wheeled figurines were toys
thesometimesaint Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 1 minute ago, Johnnie Cake said: Actually that has been established...they used the wheel on their toy...or what we interpret as a toy...we don't even really know if these wheeled figurines were toys Sophistry.
Johnnie Cake Posted February 19, 2016 Author Posted February 19, 2016 43 minutes ago, longview said: According to the article, the roundhous(es) was/were built on stilts over the bank of the river. Suggesting to me that it was used as a dock operation. The article states that there was a fire which caused the whole edifice to collapse to the bottom of the river. Then all the timbers (including the wheel) were covered by the silt of the river. Thus enabling the long term preservation. If both the Jaredite and Nephite civilizations were centered in Central America, what are the chances of wood being being able to withstand the decomposing effect of jungle climate or infestation by insects (including termites)? What about the weapons, both metallic and wooden? What were the ages of the oldest relics? How were they preserved? Lots of speculation there Longview
Johnnie Cake Posted February 19, 2016 Author Posted February 19, 2016 3 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: Sophistry. Really? You pulled the sophistry card? You can do better than that
Johnnie Cake Posted February 19, 2016 Author Posted February 19, 2016 One thing I've never had an apologist explain is how exactly does a culture "forget" the obviously beneficial benefits of the Wheel in their culture? Why would Nephi and Company merely walk away from the wheel? And why would Joseph Smith insert Chariots in to his Book of Mormon...when these vehicles did not exist within Nephite culture
stemelbow Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 7 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: One thing I've never had an apologist explain is how exactly does a culture "forget" the obviously beneficial benefits of the Wheel in their culture? Probably because nobody would know. We can't even prove the wheel was had by them. Quote Why would Nephi and Company merely walk away from the wheel? And why would Joseph Smith insert Chariots in to his Book of Mormon...when these vehicles did not exist within Nephite culture unknown.
Meadowchik Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 1 hour ago, stemelbow said: I think that's the point though. It's also possible that a 2,000 year old wheel is no longer to be found. The church in the village next to ours is 1000 years old. It's made of stone, though. The oldest known house in that same village has a timber frame but is only 500 years old in comparison. And in both cases we're talking about an area with relatively continuous society, economy, and industry. You can get that almost all structures that old has to be kept up to last, or at least made out of something more robust than wood. 1
Meadowchik Posted February 19, 2016 Posted February 19, 2016 What would cast doubt on the existence of a wheel in a prehistoric area would be the presence of artifacts of the same material that would also be expected to be in the company of wheels, with wheels and any evidence of them being absent. Another thing: any wheel would have been valuable and likely sought after if abandoned. Even an irreparable wheel might have been recycled other used or at the very least, burned for fires. I did learn that temple mound structures in the US lost their wooden posts to settlers scavenging for building materials.
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