What does the Godhead really mean?

[jayman]

5 hours ago, RevTestament said:

I reject the "co-equal" label foisted upon the Father and Son by trinitarians. They flatly ignore the many statements of the Son that bely there attempts to stuff in a man-made doctrine here. Jesus said "the Father is greater than I." The scriptures say Jesus is His servant. Not that the Father is Jesus' servant. The very title of the Father, El Elyon, the Most High El simply tells us the trinitarian doctrine is wrong

For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. Colossians 2:9

And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. John 17:5
 

[Storm Rider]

42 minutes ago, jayman said:

For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. Colossians 2:9

And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. John 17:5
 

So taking it all in context what are you saying it means?  What did Jesus mean when he said the Father was greater.  What do the apostles mean in the scriptures you quoted?

[jayman]

49 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

So taking it all in context what are you saying it means?  What did Jesus mean when he said the Father was greater.  What do the apostles mean in the scriptures you quoted?

Jesus was incarnate at the time he said that. He was made sin for us. 2 Corinthians 5:21:  "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."  

So, of course, the pre-resurrected Jesus would say that His Father is greater than he is. 

[RevTestament]

2 hours ago, jayman said:

For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. Colossians 2:9

And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. John 17:5
 

Yep. He came as the "legal agent of the Father." It does not mean He had the power of the Father without the Father. It does not make Him the Most High El, when scripture says He is the Son of the Most High.

2 hours ago, jayman said:

"Use of fear, compulsion, & persecution (adversary)" - revtestament

“I have a word to say concerning these people. If they do not walk up to every covenant they make at these altars in this temple this day, they will be in my power!”

 

There is truth, and there is use of fear to lead rather than love. There are two kinds of leaders: those who lead with inspiration, love, and example. The second are those who lead by using threats, force etc. The words you heisted are spoken by whom? Satan, not God. I am not going to reveal the things of the temple tho, just so the reader knows. 

However, God does punish man - man might consider it threats, etc, but He always sends someone to warn first.

[jayman]

"O Thou, who seest and knowest the hearts of all men-Thou eternal, omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent Jehovah - God - Thou Elohim, that sittest, as saith the Psalmist, 'enthroned in heaven,' look down upon Thy servant Joseph at this time; and let faith on the name of Thy Son Jesus Christ, to a greater degree than Thy servant ever yet has enjoyed, be conferred upon him."

A prayer spoken by Joseph Smith. History of the Church 5:127. Joseph Smith clearly believed up to a certain time that Jehovah was the name of the Father, as the rest of the Christian world believed, along with the Jewish world. And that Jesus Christ was Jehovah's son. 

 

[jayman]

Man is a divine being, traveling from everlasting to everlasting. He passes through many phases in his quest for exaltation, gaining important knowledge in each of these. He is coeternal and coexistent with God, and existed as an intelligence before becoming a spiritual offspring of a Heavenly Father.

 

Elder Henry Taylor. New Era. August 1977. “Gifts and Talents.”

Notice that God is singular. Heavenly Father, however, is considered one of many. "... a Heavenly Father." 

This is a late-appearing vestige of the old Adam-God doctrine, which is really Kabbalistic. In Kabbalah, God is Ein Sof. Heavenly Father is Adam-Kadmon, the primordial divine man that came out of the Ein Sof, and was the origin of humankind.

Adam-God theory is not dead. It has just gone underground. Adam was already an exalted man from another earth before creating and occupying this earth with our Heavenly Mother named Eve. There are still faint echoes of this in the temple, such as when Lucifer says to Adam, "So...I see you have a new world here patterned after the old one where we used to live..." 

If this is truly Mormon doctrine, I don't understand why it needs to be secret. Just be out in the open with it. Other people teach far zanier things in this world and get away with it all the time. If I was taught from a young age that God was really a council of divine beings, and that Adam was one of these and he is my God, and he literally impregnated Mary to produce Jesus Christ, I wouldn't have thought anything at all about it. I would've just went right along with it. Why all the hush-hush secrecy?  

Poster removed for using temple content, previous post removed.

[Tacenda]

9 minutes ago, jayman said:

"O Thou, who seest and knowest the hearts of all men-Thou eternal, omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent Jehovah - God - Thou Elohim, that sittest, as saith the Psalmist, 'enthroned in heaven,' look down upon Thy servant Joseph at this time; and let faith on the name of Thy Son Jesus Christ, to a greater degree than Thy servant ever yet has enjoyed, be conferred upon him."

A prayer spoken by Joseph Smith. History of the Church 5:127. Joseph Smith clearly believed up to a certain time that Jehovah was the name of the Father, as the rest of the Christian world believed, along with the Jewish world. And that Jesus Christ was Jehovah's son. 

 

I need the book for dummies on this, why is this so confusing to my pea brain.  Can you give me the pre-school version?

[longview]

9 minutes ago, jayman said:

Jesus was incarnate at the time he said that. He was made sin for us. 2 Corinthians 5:21:  "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."  

So, of course, the pre-resurrected Jesus would say that His Father is greater than he is. 

Please tell us what you think of the following:

What does being resurrected entail?

What did Jesus mean when He said:  "I am the resurrection and the life" ?

Why was Jesus the "Firstfruits of the Resurrection" ?

Who else will be resurrected?   Will it be only the righteous?  What is meant by the "Resurrection of the Damned" ?

Will being resurrected be "permanent" ?

Do you believe Jesus still has His Resurrected Body?

Are you aware that the Mosaic Law had rituals for transferring the sins of the people onto the sacrificial animal?  The priest had a cup containing the sins of the congregation which he poured on the head of the animal and then say a prayer and slay the animal?  That this prefigured the coming of the Savior, meek and lowly Lamb of God?

What was that "bitter cup" that Jesus was asking His Father to let pass?  Did that cup contain all the sins of the world from all of history?  Including the disasters, accidents, grief, confusion, and all kinds of chaos?  Do you believe Jesus partook of that "bitter cup" and suffered incomprehensible agonies while in the Garden of Gethsemane?  That this suffering was infinitely greater than the physical pains He bore on that cruel cross as well as all the previous lashings and humiliations?

Matt 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
D&C 19:18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—
Isa. 53:6  All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Notice Jesus saying:  "not as I will, but as thou wilt."  Does not this prove the actual personhoods of both the Father and the Son?  That they are separate and distinct?  That it would make sense for Jesus to say:  "I love the Father" and for the Father call Him "My Beloved Son in whom I am well pleased" ?  If they were the same person, then that would make God narcissistic!

And in Isaiah, we see that Heavenly Father laid on Jesus our sins?  That is the meaning of 2 Cor 5:21.  That Jesus took on our sins.

[Bernard Gui]

12 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Well...that would be because I brought up his blog.  I'm still all ears if he has more to say.  But feel that every faith out there has it's own philosophies.  If it's not going to hurt the LDS by having these, I don't see the harm in their believing what they want.  I wonder if there is scripture anywhere that says someone is condemned for believing one way and not exactly like the Bible.    

I'm all ears to hear what the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve officially published on the subject of the Father and the Son. I think they are better qualified to expound on Mormon doctrine than this blogger,

but that's just me.

[RevTestament]

1 hour ago, jayman said:

Man is a divine being, traveling from everlasting to everlasting. He passes through many phases in his quest for exaltation, gaining important knowledge in each of these. He is coeternal and coexistent with God, and existed as an intelligence before becoming a spiritual offspring of a Heavenly Father.

 

Elder Henry Taylor. New Era. August 1977. “Gifts and Talents.”

Notice that God is singular. Heavenly Father, however, is considered one of many. "... a Heavenly Father." 

This is a late-appearing vestige of the old Adam-God doctrine, which is really Kabbalistic. In Kabbalah, God is Ein Sof. Heavenly Father is Adam-Kadmon, the primordial divine man that came out of the Ein Sof, and was the origin of humankind.

Adam-God theory is not dead. It has just gone underground. Adam was already an exalted man from another earth before creating and occupying this earth with our Heavenly Mother named Eve. There are still faint echoes of this in the temple, such as when Lucifer says to Adam, "So...I see you have a new world here patterned after the old one where we used to live..." 

If this is truly Mormon doctrine, I don't understand why it needs to be secret. Just be out in the open with it. Other people teach far zanier things in this world and get away with it all the time. If I was taught from a young age that God was really a council of divine beings, and that Adam was one of these and he is my God, and he literally impregnated Mary to produce Jesus Christ, I wouldn't have thought anything at all about it. I would've just went right along with it. Why all the hush-hush secrecy?  

Poster removed for using temple content, previous post removed.

Well John, I see you had to push the envelope posting more Temple stuff. 

But I do wish to respond to this. Taylor is right. Man is a divine or holy being. "Every male child shall be called holy to the Lord." There is nothing wrong with aspiring to be like one's Father: 

"let this mind be in you also... He thought it not robbery to be equal with God, but fashioned himself in the form of a servant." 

The difference between LDS and Orthodoxy, is that we believe these words. Orthodoxy thinks it blasphemy like the Jews did. Orthodoxy introduces unscriptural words into creeds because they can't be found in the scriptures so as to support their error, thereby hiding the holiest of all which Christ came to pierce the veil of the Temple in order to show us the way to the holiest of all. Orthodoxy hides the very hope of Christ - that we will follow Him. If you wish to be content with that, we certainly can't stop you.

Peace & I wish you well on your journey

[Bernard Gui]

5 hours ago, jayman said:

You guys really do nothing for your credibility when you say things like this. I remember first being exposed to the exposition back in 1997. I am here because someone took my ideas which I was expressing in my own playground and posted them here. Others began to discuss them, I found out about it, and decided to come along, too.

The 1916 exposition was not widely known in the Church in recent times - until it was reprinted in the Ensign in April 2002. How did you hear of it?

A previous official First Presidency declaration (1909) also defines the relationship between the Father and the Son, specifically in the creation of Adam.

No doubt you have studied this one, too, in order to form your conclusions on LDS doctrine of the Father and Son. It is shockingly scandalous that they dare cite LDS scriptures in this declaration, too.

 

"It should be no surprise that Mormon doctrines find support in Mormon scriptures." Saying something as inane as this demolishes any conceivable credibility

one might hope to have on an LDS discussion board. That's a comment one gets from people who take remedial Mormonism-is-a-cult classes. Hence, what are you doing here trying to criticize LDS doctrine? 

 

Edited February 18, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[rodheadlee]

On 2/14/2016 at 9:26 AM, Tacenda said:

Do Elder Holland and the rest of the members have it wrong?  

https://deadtothelaw.wordpress.com/2016/01/16/the-unsaved-god-hollands-2016-ensign-article-about-the-godhead/

What do you, yourself think about it? Have you read the link Bernard Gui put up that explains our doctrine?

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2002/04/the-father-and-the-son?lang=eng

I am interested in what you think.What do your prayers and scripture study lead you to believe?

[danielwoods]

9 hours ago, RevTestament said:

Well John, I see you had to push the envelope posting more Temple stuff. 

But I do wish to respond to this. Taylor is right. Man is a divine or holy being. "Every male child shall be called holy to the Lord." There is nothing wrong with aspiring to be like one's Father: 

"let this mind be in you also... He thought it not robbery to be equal with God, but fashioned himself in the form of a servant." 

The difference between LDS and Orthodoxy, is that we believe these words. Orthodoxy thinks it blasphemy like the Jews did. Orthodoxy introduces unscriptural words into creeds because they can't be found in the scriptures so as to support their error, thereby hiding the holiest of all which Christ came to pierce the veil of the Temple in order to show us the way to the holiest of all. Orthodoxy hides the very hope of Christ - that we will follow Him. If you wish to be content with that, we certainly can't stop you.

Peace & I wish you well on your journey

Since John can't respond, I figured I would. 

First is the assumption that man is a divine being. Where do you get this from? Your quote, "Every male..." doesn't exactly say what you claim. 

Second is your claim that the "very hope of Christ" is to follow him and what? Become Divine? I'm confused, if man is already a divine being (in your opinion) how is it that we need Christ? 

[Tacenda]

9 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

What do you, yourself think about it? Have you read the link Bernard Gui put up that explains our doctrine?

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2002/04/the-father-and-the-son?lang=eng

I am interested in what you think.What do your prayers and scripture study lead you to believe?

I'm taking night classes so I've been pretty busy.  I will read what Bernard put up now, thanks!

[Calm]

7 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I'm taking night classes so I've been pretty busy.  

Good for you.  Hope they are both fun and interesting.

[mfbukowski]

12 hours ago, jayman said:

Jesus was incarnate at the time he said that. He was made sin for us. 2 Corinthians 5:21:  "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."  

So, of course, the pre-resurrected Jesus would say that His Father is greater than he is. 

Nope

The idea that having a body makes one imperfect is a pagan Greek idea that got into Christianity through Neoplatonism.

But Protestants seem to not understand Neoplatonism at all and how it is that they accept Catholic theology with ideas like this.

[Tacenda]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

Good for you.  Hope they are both fun and interesting.

It's Health Technology and I've taken only computer classes so far, finishing up on the Excel.  I've wanted to go back to school for years and finally pushed myself to do it.  It's helped my self esteem quite a bit.  I've been a sub for almost 10 yrs because it worked with my family.  Now all the kids are out of the house so there was no excuse.  Plus I'm suffering from empty nest syndrome, it's real.  And it would be nice to build a rapor with people at work, with sub'g it just doesn't do it.  Although I sub at mainly 2 or 3 schools and know several people in each.  Thanks for your comment Calm.    

 

[Calm]

I am hoping to go back to school one of these years so I always encourage it when I see it happening.

[Tacenda]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

I am hoping to go back to school one of these years so I always encourage it when I see it happening.

I wanted to try some religion classes at the U of U several months ago but that fell through.  Just decided to go to a tech school for now and get some kind of skills.  

[Tacenda]

24 minutes ago, Calm said:

I am hoping to go back to school one of these years so I always encourage it when I see it happening.

You already have some mad skills in the knowledge dept!  

[RevTestament]

2 hours ago, danielwoods said:

Since John can't respond, I figured I would. 

First is the assumption that man is a divine being. Where do you get this from? Your quote, "Every male..." doesn't exactly say what you claim. 

di·vine - 
adjective

1. of, from, or like God or a god.
"heroes with divine powers"
synonyms:    godly, angelic, seraphic, saintly, beatific; More

2. excellent; delightful.
"that succulent clementine tasted divine"

Divine does not mean one is the Father. Divine means that God formed us as holy - in His image. It is us who defiles ourselves. We are like the prodigal son. Do I believe man can live godly? God seems to think so. 
Malachi 2:15 And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth.

Quote

Second is your claim that the "very hope of Christ" is to follow him and what? Become Divine? I'm confused, if man is already a divine being (in your opinion) how is it that we need Christ?

Jesus will be the Father in the regeneration. In the mean time we all need salvation.
Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
 

[danielwoods]

10 hours ago, RevTestament said:

di·vine - 
adjective

1. of, from, or like God or a god.
"heroes with divine powers"
synonyms:    godly, angelic, seraphic, saintly, beatific; More

2. excellent; delightful.
"that succulent clementine tasted divine"

Divine does not mean one is the Father. Divine means that God formed us as holy - in His image. It is us who defiles ourselves. We are like the prodigal son. Do I believe man can live godly? God seems to think so. 
Malachi 2:15 And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth.

Jesus will be the Father in the regeneration. In the mean time we all need salvation.
Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
 

 

Right, so you're using the word divine in a general manner of speaking (hence your reference to a general dictionary definition). In the Biblical context there is only one divinity, that is God alone. How the word is used by unbelievers is more watered down, or general. 

Again, Matt. 19 doesn't state that "Jesus will be the Father..." 

[tonygravel]

 

12 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Nope

The idea that having a body makes one imperfect is a pagan Greek idea that got into Christianity through Neoplatonism.

But Protestants seem to not understand Neoplatonism at all and how it is that they accept Catholic theology with ideas like this.

It was also a pagan Greek idea that an embodied gods in the literal form of men (complete with genitals) could come down to earth and have sexual relations with humans beings. So while you can say that neoplatonic ideas made their way into Christianity, thus corrupting it, we can also see that a different avenue of pagan Greek thought made its way into Mormonism. Many Mormon leaders have more than implied that God the Father is literally the father of Jesus' physical body. But since Mormonism is the one true doctrine, whenever Greek beliefs show up in Mormonism, it is because the Greeks had a scrap of that original "truth," and Joseph Smith restored it. However, whenever Greek beliefs show up in traditional Christianity, it is because traditional Christianity is apostate.  

.   

[JLHPROF]

6 minutes ago, tonygravel said:

But since Mormonism is the one true doctrine, whenever Greek beliefs show up in Mormonism, it is because the Greeks had a scrap of that original "truth," and Joseph Smith restored it. However, whenever Greek beliefs show up in traditional Christianity, it is because traditional Christianity is apostate. 

Yup.

[mfbukowski]

35 minutes ago, tonygravel said:

 

It was also a pagan Greek idea that an embodied gods in the literal form of men (complete with genitals) could come down to earth and have sexual relations with humans beings. So while you can say that neoplatonic ideas made their way into Christianity, thus corrupting it, we can also see that a different avenue of pagan Greek thought made its way into Mormonism. Many Mormon leaders have more than implied that God the Father is literally the father of Jesus' physical body. But since Mormonism is the one true doctrine, whenever Greek beliefs show up in Mormonism, it is because the Greeks had a scrap of that original "truth," and Joseph Smith restored it. However, whenever Greek beliefs show up in traditional Christianity, it is because traditional Christianity is apostate.  

.   

Nah

The fact that Hebrews believed in an embodied God is well established.

I am not going to do your research for you, but volgadon or Robert F.Smith probably have reams of references.

I will just link you to a BAPTIST scholar I found in 5 minutes on google who refers to an embodied God in Genesis and other books. 

No cigar for you!   http://claudemariottini.com/2012/02/25/the-embodiment-of-god-in-the-hebrew-bible/