mfbukowski Posted February 13, 2016 Posted February 13, 2016 4 hours ago, JLHPROF said: I'm just not sure how you know what to believe since none of the doctrinal teachings can rightly be called the word of God in your view. Everything just becomes some man's opinion and there is no source to move towards. Let me suggest to you that is all anyone has ever had. It's not that the scriptures are "man's opinion" it is just that knowing which scriptures are "correct" is the real problem. In the west we mostly have the bible, but there are so many "scriptures" throughout the world, it would be impossible to find one set of revelations which did not conflict with other revelations. This article alone lists 55 different BODIES of texts like the bible to us, which allege to be "scripture" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_text If one has studied these matters, it is clear that this is a "mass of confusion". It is each of our's choice to accept some "scripture" as the "word of God" based on our testimony- there is no other way. We cannot take anyone's word for it, but ourselves!! Who knows who is right and who is wrong? The only way is if God tells us. We MUST have an internal mechanism available for us to find the truth or there is no way to find the "truth". One of the reasons I joined this church was Moroni 10:4-5, which says this exact thing I know of no other church which teaches that one must have one's own revelation from God to know the "truth". That entails the fact that others may think they have the truth and we don't. The only solution I can come up with which posits that there IS a God who confirms different paths is that some of us need different paths to come unto him. As I have said before, if I had not been Catholic and then an atheist before I found our church, and God confirmed to my spirit that I was in the right place, I would have never found the church Those steps were necessary in my life for me to get from where I was to where I am today So probably some need to believe in hellfire and brimstone because of their upbringing or who knows what- in order to find the real Christ. That is a very authoritarian way to see the world, but if that is what you need to get you to Christ, more power to you. Some will only change through fear of punishment, and I suppose that is what this thread is about. 2
mfbukowski Posted February 13, 2016 Posted February 13, 2016 4 hours ago, FormerLDS said: I don't know, but if God says that His grace which brings salvation appeared to him then I believe that at some point in his life he was faced with a decision. Yes, that is the problem isn't it? So why should we believe you, and how do you know we have made the wrong decision? Don't you see that as prideful, when you say that someone who has never heard of Christ can be saved and yet, we have to listen to you to be saved? How could you know that? It seems quite judgemental to me. 4
mfbukowski Posted February 13, 2016 Posted February 13, 2016 4 hours ago, JLHPROF said: Or maybe your timing on salvation is off and that young boy from 800 BC will yet have the opportunity to be saved. Bingo!
Spammer Posted February 13, 2016 Posted February 13, 2016 15 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: I know of no other church which teaches that one must have one's own revelation from God to know the "truth". Orthodoxy.
FormerLDS Posted February 13, 2016 Author Posted February 13, 2016 5 hours ago, bluebell said: Mormons "believeth on" Jesus Christ, so based on that scripture, why don't you believe that Mormons are saved?
FormerLDS Posted February 13, 2016 Author Posted February 13, 2016 4 hours ago, busybee said: So are you saying that every person who has ever lived, or will ever live has had, or will have the opportunity to hear of Jesus Christ and to believe or not believe in him during their mortal lives on this earth?. Everyone born before Christ was born, everyone born in remote places on the planet? Every single person? Interesting. Please explain how this can be true? Do you know that there are people on the earth today who have never heard of Christ, and who may die before they will do so? No, I am saying the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ that brings salvation has appeared to everyone who has ever lived. "What about those who never heard of Jesus Christ?" This is a common criticism from non-believers and really just a red herring so they don't have to address the real topic at hand. What you're really saying is you don't think God is capable of revealing Himself [because you do not know how or cannot explain]. All who have ever lived have access the same fundamental information that there is a God and moral standard of right a wrong and the fact that they have sinned.
FormerLDS Posted February 13, 2016 Author Posted February 13, 2016 35 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Yes, that is the problem isn't it? So why should we believe you, and how do you know we have made the wrong decision? Don't you see that as prideful, when you say that someone who has never heard of Christ can be saved and yet, we have to listen to you to be saved? How could you know that? It seems quite judgemental to me. Listen to what Jesus Christ plainly says.
Zakuska Posted February 13, 2016 Posted February 13, 2016 (edited) 5 hours ago, FormerLDS said: Anyone can be saved. I was a Mormon when I discovered the truth and was saved. Think about a "gift" and think about a "reward". They are complete opposites. A gift is given freely and without payment of any kind. A reward is given only in recognition of personal worthiness, merit and achievement. The Bible says "the gift of God is eternal life" in Romans 6, so clearly eternal life is given freely and without any payment in return. Why does LDS theology teach that you cannot have eternal life during mortality? Because the "eternal life" the LDS "savior" offers is not a free gift, but the reward of worthy behavior. Paul can't seem to keep his theology straight... he told the Collosians they were being "rewarded" with eternal life because of their good works. Colossians 3:23-24, “Whatever your task, work heartily, as serving the Lord and not men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward. Seems to me Paul used "gift" and "reward" pretty interchangably. Edited February 13, 2016 by Zakuska 1
Zakuska Posted February 13, 2016 Posted February 13, 2016 (edited) Here again Paul links the "gift" / "reward" of eternal life to "good works. Romans 2 2 Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. 2 But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things. 3 And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God?4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God. Edited February 13, 2016 by Zakuska
RevTestament Posted February 13, 2016 Posted February 13, 2016 36 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: Listen to what Jesus Christ plainly says. He plainly said He was going to paradise, not heaven. Peter plainly said that He in spirit went to the spirit world to teach those who could live godly. Your model seems a tad deficient to say the least - kinda like Protestant theology in general. But I will say your model is a tad more accurate than the usual fair.
Avatar4321 Posted February 13, 2016 Posted February 13, 2016 1 hour ago, FormerLDS said: No, I am saying the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ that brings salvation has appeared to everyone who has ever lived. "What about those who never heard of Jesus Christ?" This is a common criticism from non-believers and really just a red herring so they don't have to address the real topic at hand. What you're really saying is you don't think God is capable of revealing Himself [because you do not know how or cannot explain]. All who have ever lived have access the same fundamental information that there is a God and moral standard of right a wrong and the fact that they have sinned. That's funny. Because every one asking you that has received revelation. In fact, it's very natural for those who know the gospel to be concerned with the salvation of others, particularly those that die without the knowledge of the gospel. The fact that you aren't concerned with their question says something too 3
JLHPROF Posted February 13, 2016 Posted February 13, 2016 1 hour ago, FormerLDS said: Listen to what Jesus Christ plainly says. We do. We don't rely on poetic nonsense to interpret his very clear teachings.
The Nehor Posted February 13, 2016 Posted February 13, 2016 7 hours ago, FormerLDS said: Because the "eternal life" the LDS "savior" offers is not a free gift, but the reward of worthy behavior. Well, let us take a look at how Jesus thinks the dead will be divided: 31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. Uh-oh............ 2
mfbukowski Posted February 13, 2016 Posted February 13, 2016 2 hours ago, FormerLDS said: Listen to what Jesus Christ plainly says. You are not following the argument How do you know you SHOULD listen to Jesus? Because he said you should? How do you know that he even existed? Do you know that perhaps hundred have claimed to be a prophet who can give you salvation? And written words alleged to be "scripture"?
mfbukowski Posted February 13, 2016 Posted February 13, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, FormerLDS said: No, I am saying the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ that brings salvation has appeared to everyone who has ever lived. "What about those who never heard of Jesus Christ?" This is a common criticism from non-believers and really just a red herring so they don't have to address the real topic at hand. What you're really saying is you don't think God is capable of revealing Himself [because you do not know how or cannot explain]. All who have ever lived have access the same fundamental information that there is a God and moral standard of right a wrong and the fact that they have sinned. Red herring! So now you are saying that believing in God and knowing you are a sinner is enough to save you- so which is it? Do you have to listen to Jesus or just know you are a sinner? I do not mean to badger you, but the fact is most here find Evangelical arguments to be quite contradictory and confusing. The story is never the same twice. Here you say you only need to know you are a sinner, and above you want us to listen to Jesus. If you only need to know you are a sinner, who would NOT be saved?? Everyone has sinned and knows it. So if that is the case, why are you even here? Everyone who has felt bad about doing anything is automatically saved. Very confusing. And based on this very confusing doctrine people will burn in hell? For what precisely? Only those who do not feel guilt for sin burn in hell? Edited February 13, 2016 by mfbukowski 1
mfbukowski Posted February 13, 2016 Posted February 13, 2016 1 hour ago, RevTestament said: He plainly said He was going to paradise, not heaven. Peter plainly said that He in spirit went to the spirit world to teach those who could live godly. Your model seems a tad deficient to say the least - kinda like Protestant theology in general. But I will say your model is a tad more accurate than the usual fair. Are you aware that the Bible was not written in English?
volgadon Posted February 13, 2016 Posted February 13, 2016 And Tommy doesn't know what day it is. Doesn't know who Jesus was or what praying is. How can he be saved? From the eternal grave. Surrounded by his friends he sits so silently, And unaware of everything. Playing poxy pin ball picks his nose and smiles and Pokes his tongue at everything. I believe in love but how can men who've never seen Light be enlightened. Only if he's cured will his spirits future level ever heighten. 3
busybee Posted February 13, 2016 Posted February 13, 2016 15 hours ago, FormerLDS said: 15 hours ago, FormerLDS said: Anyone can be saved. I was a Mormon when I discovered the truth and was saved. Think about a "gift" and think about a "reward". They are complete opposites. A gift is given freely and without payment of any kind. A reward is given only in recognition of personal worthiness, merit and achievement. The Bible says "the gift of God is eternal life" in Romans 6, so clearly eternal life is given freely and without any payment in return. Why does LDS theology teach that you cannot have eternal life during mortality? Because the "eternal life" the LDS "savior" offers is not a free gift, but the reward of worthy behavior. Ooohh I get it now. We can be saved but we have can't be Mormons and be saved. WE have to ascend to some higher form of 'truth' like you before we can be saved. We have to become more enlightened. Got it!! Pft!!
busybee Posted February 13, 2016 Posted February 13, 2016 9 hours ago, FormerLDS said: No, I am saying the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ that brings salvation has appeared to everyone who has ever lived. "What about those who never heard of Jesus Christ?" This is a common criticism from non-believers and really just a red herring so they don't have to address the real topic at hand. What you're really saying is you don't think God is capable of revealing Himself [because you do not know how or cannot explain]. All who have ever lived have access the same fundamental information that there is a God and moral standard of right a wrong and the fact that they have sinned. And this is an airy-fairy response from those who have no understanding of the actual plan of our Heavenly Father. So, according to your explanation, whether one believes the flying spaghetti monster is god, or the ancient cultures who believed multiple gods, that's ok? They don't actually have to have a knowledge of Jesus Christ as their Saviour, just some moral equivalent. Ok, got it!! 1
sheilauk Posted February 13, 2016 Posted February 13, 2016 10 hours ago, FormerLDS said: No, I am saying the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ that brings salvation has appeared to everyone who has ever lived. "What about those who never heard of Jesus Christ?" This is a common criticism from non-believers and really just a red herring so they don't have to address the real topic at hand. What you're really saying is you don't think God is capable of revealing Himself [because you do not know how or cannot explain]. All who have ever lived have access the same fundamental information that there is a God and moral standard of right a wrong and the fact that they have sinned. 39 minutes ago, busybee said: And this is an airy-fairy response from those who have no understanding of the actual plan of our Heavenly Father. So, according to your explanation, whether one believes the flying spaghetti monster is god, or the ancient cultures who believed multiple gods, that's ok? They don't actually have to have a knowledge of Jesus Christ as their Saviour, just some moral equivalent. Ok, got it!! Wouldn't this also mean that LDS members are saved? We know there is God, we know right and wrong and we know we sin. Why would the Lord withhold his grace just because we (in the opinion of others) don't know correct doctrine? 2
busybee Posted February 13, 2016 Posted February 13, 2016 (edited) 20 minutes ago, sheilauk said: Wouldn't this also mean that LDS members are saved? We know there is God, we know right and wrong and we know we sin. Why would the Lord withhold his grace just because we (in the opinion of others) don't know correct doctrine? Oh absolutely! But FormerLDS claims that this is not so. He/she had to leave the church to discover the truth that would save him/her. The statements he/she makes are contradictory at best. One the one hand a claim is made that all who will ever live on this earth will 'meet' God in some shape or form and have the opportunity to believe or not, and on the other hand he/she is saying that LDS need something more than what they have to be saved. All very confusing actually. But par for the course from those who have become 'more enlightened'. Edited February 13, 2016 by busybee 1
Storm Rider Posted February 13, 2016 Posted February 13, 2016 That is the real illogical part of this type of Protestant teaching - to be saved one must believe in Jesus Christ.......unless you are Mormon and then Jesus is not enough for them. They must become Evangelical, Baptist, etc. You see, Jesus cannot really save those who believe in him because....well because believers must be Baptist, etc. Yeah, these types of discussions are of little value because they don't read the Bible in context, don't understand what they read, and don't believe what they teach. 3
sheilauk Posted February 13, 2016 Posted February 13, 2016 It was these inconsistencies that drove me from the Protestant churches. 1
Avatar4321 Posted February 13, 2016 Posted February 13, 2016 its threads like this that make me wonder if formerlds ever really was lds. I can't imagine anyone who truly was as being so ignorant that they don't know that we teach that we are saved because of Jesus Christ. Or so ignorant of the book of Mormon that they don't realize it is inviting the reader to come to Christ on every solitary page 2
sunstoned Posted February 13, 2016 Posted February 13, 2016 1 hour ago, busybee said: Oh absolutely! But FormerLDS claims that this is not so. He/she had to leave the church to discover the truth that would save him/her. The statements he/she makes are contradictory at best. One the one hand a claim is made that all who will ever live on this earth will 'meet' God in some shape or form and have the opportunity to believe or not, and on the other hand he/she is saying that LDS need something more than what they have to be saved. All very confusing actually. But par for the course from those who have become 'more enlightened'.
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